Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I know that various options were prepared based on the possible regionalization activities that the RCMP could implement.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could you provide those options to the committee?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I do not have them, but—

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could they be submitted to the committee, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Terrific.

I will continue, since I am short on time. As soon as the news broke, I began receiving information and emails from people—they shall remain nameless—in other departments. They told me this was not the first time that complaints had been made about Mr. Elliott's behaviour. It happened when he was at Transport Canada, and Fisheries and Oceans. That is the information I received.

I am sure that when the government appointed this man, it had all that information, as well.

Do you consider it a sign of poor judgment to appoint someone who has already had interpersonal problems in other departments, with a history of this kind of thing?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Certainly doing this knowingly is a major issue, but I can't say that Bill Elliott was appointed to the position of Commissioner of the RCMP with any knowledge on the part of the government of any historical behavioural issues. Whether or not these behavioural issues existed, I don't have any first-hand knowledge. I've heard things, again, but I have not been witness to any of his behavioural issues outside the RCMP, and I have no knowledge of the government having knowledge of that either.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would hope it had knowledge of that. In order to appoint someone to a position, the government must be familiar with the person's entire professional history, including their conduct in other departments. This was not the first time these issues came up, according to the information I received.

Furthermore, when you say complaints, do you mean actual grievances? Were any grievances filed against Mr. Elliott at the RCMP? Or were they verbal complaints, as opposed to formal grievances?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

As I mentioned earlier, Ms. Mourani, I am not aware of any written complaints. It is possible, but I am not sure.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I am asking you because I requested that information from the RCMP, and I was told there was nothing. They did not find any information on whether or not any grievances had been filed. I hope that is true and that nothing is being hidden. Just for your information, Supt. Yves Marineau, the departmental privacy coordinator, responded to my request. I would have liked to know if any grievances had been filed. I would also like the committee to have that information, as well, if possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

There are a couple of mentions that Madame Mourani has had in regard to a letter being tabled and to other information. When you leave here, if you think of some of those and if you can add information, please do that and feel free to send it to the clerk of the committee. We would appreciate it.

Mr. Souccar.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I just want to make sure that there was no undertaking on my behalf--or if there was, if you could let me know, please, Mr. Chair--on the options with respect to regionalizations. I don't have these options in my possession. I don't have an office at the RCMP right now, so if this is an undertaking, perhaps a direct request can be made by Ms. Mourani to the RCMP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Davies, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The government side has indicated on more than one occasion that they think there should be a strong prohibition against political direction of the RCMP. Yet we know that the original appointment of Commissioner Elliott was an appointment that, in many people's eyes, had political overtones to it, given Mr. Elliott's history.

Do you think there should be an independent selection process of the next Commissioner of the RCMP, and if so, do you have any ideas in that regard?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

The RCMP Act has the Minister of Public Safety overseeing the Commissioner of the RCMP. The Commissioner of the RCMP responds to the Minister of Public Safety under the umbrella of public safety along with the Canada Border Services Agency, Correctional Services, and CSIS.

In terms of the selection process and whether it should be independent, I hope and I expect that when a selection board is put together the individuals on the selection board are looking for the most meritorious candidate--the candidate with the leadership necessary to lead a very complex organization--and not looking at whether or not that individual is going to be a lap dog, if you will, for anyone, and that they will be doing what is required to look after the best interests of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and serve the public in an open, transparent, and accountable way.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I want to move to something different. You've talked a lot about the morale of the RCMP. I think the next leader is going to face that challenge to try to determine what the causes of that low morale are, and hopefully take positive steps that will improve it.

In the summer of 2008 the Conservatives promised that they would implement raises—I can't remember the exact number, but in the 4% to 5% range--to address attraction and retention issues in the force. After the election in October 2008 the government reneged on that promise, and since that time the commissioner has either been unwilling or unable to address that successfully.

I'm wondering if you could tell us what effect not honouring that promise to the men and women in the force had on morale.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Well, we have.... And Mike perhaps can refresh.... I'll need some help on this one, but we have instituted service day, so that's been put in place, and I believe that has gone a long way in retention issues. We've instituted cadet day, which helped us with our recruiting. We've instituted a backup policy that compensates members for being on call.

So I think there are a number of compensation-related matters that have been taken care of that I think have gone some distance in helping with retention.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Is it still an outstanding issue, are you saying? Or are you saying there are no issues with compensation rates in the RCMP?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Can you help me with this one?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

At the time I was a commanding officer I was responsible for operations in Ontario, and initially when it comes out I think any time you touch a person's purse strings they get a little sensitive. And there was talk among the membership when I met with them.

I go back to Sir Robert Peel's basic principles of policing. One of them is that the police are the people and the people are the police.

At the time our headquarters were in the city of London, and people were being laid off left, right, and centre and losing their jobs in the industries there. Some industries were shutting down. Specifically, on the day of the announcement, 3M was closing its aerosol plant there.

So I met with the people and said, along that principle, to just stop and think for a second about the number of Canadians who were losing their jobs in this recession and difficult time. So before you get feeling like you're being bled out, just think about the situation in this specific town. And I did the same when I went to Toronto. It was time to think about who we were.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I take it, then, that what you're saying, if I can sum it up, is that it's not really a current issue.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

No, it isn't.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It won't be one of the major challenges being faced.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

What are the next challenges?