Public Safety Committee on March 24th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good morning, everyone, and welcome.

This is meeting 62 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Thursday, March 24, 2011.

In our first hour today our committee will consider the supplementary estimates under Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

The Honourable Vic Toews, Minister of Public Safety, is again appearing before us to answer questions on these estimates. He is accompanied by each of the top officials in his cabinet portfolio, including, from the Department of Public Safety, Deputy Minister William Baker; from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Rod Knecht, senior deputy commissioner; from the Canada Border Services Agency, Ms. Cathy Munroe, vice-president of the program branch; from Correctional Service of Canada, Commissioner Don Head. Welcome back. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Laura Danagher, deputy director of administration; and from the National Parole Board, Mr. Harvey Cenaiko, the chairperson.

The minister and his officials are also prepared to answer questions on the estimates following a brief opening statement, and then we'll proceed to questions from the members of our committee.

Minister Toews, welcome again to this parliamentary committee, and we look forward to your comments.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Once again I welcome the opportunity to be with you to discuss the estimates of the public safety portfolio.

As you indicated, Mr. Chair, I am joined here by the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Mr. William Baker, as well as by senior officials of the five agencies in the public safety portfolio: the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Correctional Service of Canada, the Parole Board of Canada, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

The committee has before it the main estimates for fiscal year 2011-12, which seek an increase in funds of $797.4 million over the fiscal year 2010-11 for the portfolio. The committee also has before it supplementary estimates (C), which seek approval for funds of $48.5 million for the current fiscal year. These estimates do not reflect initiatives announced in Budget 2011.

As demonstrated in this week's tabling of the budget, the next phase of Canada's economic action plan recognizes the importance of keeping our communities safe by investing in crime prevention and the justice system, with such measures including investing $20 million over two years in the youth gang prevention fund to promote the provision of community-based educational, cultural, sporting, and vocational opportunities for youth; promoting safer aboriginal communities by investing an additional $30 million over two years in the first nations policing program to supplement existing policing services; funding of $8.4 million per year to Canada's no-safe-haven policy for persons involved in war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide; providing $26 million over two years to support the federal victims’ ombudsman to promote access to justice and participation by victims in the justice system; funding $20.9 million to continue to waive firearms licence renewal fees for all classes of firearms from May 2011 until May 2012; and contributing $1.6 million annually to support security enhancements for communities victimized by hate-motivated crime.

These are only a few highlights of this week's budget; however, they stand as a testament to our government's continued commitment to protecting the safety and security of all Canadians.

The committee has before it the main estimates for fiscal year 2011-12, which provide for the day-to-day operations of the portfolio throughout the fiscal year in accordance with our government's ongoing commitment to continue building safer communities for all Canadians at a time of government restraint.

In addition, funds would be prudently invested to provide the Correctional Service of Canada and the National Parole Board of Canada with the resources to implement the Truth in Sentencing Act and the Tackling Violent Crime Act.

It would allow the RCMP to meet incremental requests for policing services by provinces, territories, municipalities, and first nations communities while also implementing or renewing a number of initiatives to further crack down on the activities of organized crime groups as well as others who would threaten the safety and security of Canadians.

It would strengthen the ability of the Canada Border Services Agency to keep our borders secure while expediting the legitimate flow of people and goods across them, and it would allow the agency to support the integrity of Canada's immigration and refugee program by implementing the Balanced Refugee Reform Act.

It would deliver on the commitment I believe all of us share to protecting Canada's digital infrastructure from current and emerging cyber threats by providing needed resources for the implementation of Canada's cyber security strategy, which our government announced in September.

Our efforts to tackle crime will cost more money. We understand there is a cost to keeping dangerous criminals behind bars, and we're willing to pay it. This is a small price to pay to ensure dangerous criminals don't create new victims or terrorize previous ones. We want to ensure that Correctional Service Canada has the resources it needs to keep dangerous criminals behind bars and ensure that our methods and infrastructure keep up with, indeed get ahead of, new forms of criminality.

The protection of Canadians must come first. As victims have repeatedly told us, releasing criminals onto our streets early has a much higher cost than keeping criminals behind bars. In fact, a recent report released by the Department of Justice estimated the total cost of crime to Canadians in 2008 to be $99.6 billion. I'm very pleased that Conservative members of this committee have recently written the Parliamentary Budget Officer requesting a study analyzing the socio-economic cost of crime for victims, governments, and our communities. I agree with my colleagues on the committee that this is an area that has not received adequate priority and analysis.

Our government is aware of the reality and we are prepared to take the steps that will be needed to ensure that Correctional Services of Canada has the tools they need. The main estimates for fiscal year 2011-12 seek an increase to Correctional Services of Canada's budget of $521.6 million, of which $458 million relates to the implementation of the Truth In Sentencing Act, and a further $19.6 million is requested for the implementation of the Tackling Violent Crime Act.

In addition, the main estimates for 2011-12 seek an increase to the Parole Board of Canada's budget of $2.8 million, of which $1.6 million represents the third of six annual increases related to the government's Truth In Sentencing Act. Canadians have told us they want to feel safe on their own streets and in their own communities. They have told us they want police to have the resources they need to do the job. They have told us they want stiffer consequences and stiffer punishments for serious crimes, especially violent gun crimes. They have told us that they want offenders held more fully to account for their actions, and they have told us that they want the interest of victims put ahead of those of offenders. That is what our government is doing.

We are working with Canadians to restore faith in our justice system. All of us have been busy in this session. We have worked together on Bill S-13, which is the Protecting Borders Act, more commonly referred to as “Shiprider”. This is important legislation that would permit designated Canadian and American law enforcement personnel to jointly work on maritime law enforcement vessels in boundary waters and pursue criminals who try to exploit law enforcement gaps at our shared waterways.

We have worked hard on Bill C-42, An Act to amend the Aeronautics Act, which is important and very much needed by Canadian travellers as it is going to allow Canadian airline companies to continue accessing southern destinations in the most timely and cost-effective way possible. And it is going to ensure that we continue to strike the appropriate balance between complying with international laws while also protecting the rights of Canadians.

We've worked together to pass reforms to the pardon system so that the Parole Board of Canada has the discretion it needs to determine whether or not granting a pardon might bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

Our children have the right to be safe from sex offenders. That's why I'm very proud that all of us worked to pass legislation to strengthen the national sex offender registry and the national DNA data bank so that all sex offenders are registered with the police.

Tackling crime on all fronts remains a key priority for our government, which is why we also recently introduced legislation to combat the despicable crime of human smuggling. This is indeed a major concern for our government. We need the help of all members of Parliament to pass our firm and reasonable measures that would prevent human smugglers from abusing our fair and welcoming immigration system.

Most recently, we passed reasonable measures to ensure that convicted con artists, fraudsters, and drug traffickers won't be released automatically onto our streets after serving just one-sixth of their prison sentence.

Finally, our Justice for Victims of Terrorism Act passed through the Senate, and we have announced new RCMP technology that will help reduce wait times for individuals, including hockey coaches and teachers, to receive police checks to be able to work with the most vulnerable in our society.

Keeping our communities safe has been a priority for this government, and I know it's a priority for members of this committee. We have taken action on a number of fronts to deliver on our commitment. We will continue to do so in the future, and I look forward to working with this committee over the coming months on a number of fronts to keep Canadians safe.

I am now prepared to answer questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, for your presentation this morning.

We'll now move to the first round of questions.

I'm just going to remind all members that a lot of speculation is going on in the media and around this place now. Emotions can run high. Let's make certain that all our questions and answers are taken through the chair so we have the best decorum we can. That's what we usually have here and that's what I would expect.

We'll move to the first round of questions from the Liberal Party for seven minutes, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the Minister.

Minister, I want to run through a history. It has to do with cost, and I think it's pretty central to the estimates in front of us. It must have been about two years ago that I made a request for the Parliamentary Budget Officer to review the cost of all the bills that were before Parliament that had implications with respect to incarceration. The Parliamentary Budget Officer agreed to undertake that study. In that period of time all I heard from his office was that there was absolutely no cooperation from either your office or from Correctional Service Canada. In fact, it was so bad he had to dedicate one-third of his staff and all kinds of resources to create statistical models to recreate the data that was refused to him. The reason given was that it was cabinet confidence.

Now we move forward as the Parliamentary Budget Officer was blocked from doing his job and Parliament was unable to know what the costing of bills was as we went forward.

Mr. Chair, my concern is that it took the Speaker of the House to say this behaviour was completely inappropriate, that you cannot hide information from either Parliament or Canadians. And still the documentation was not handed over. A contempt motion was passed by a committee of Parliament, and still today, nearly two years after seeking.... With 18 bills before us, the Parliamentary Budget Officer tells us that more than 55% of the data is missing, and we don't have the information.

The question is simple. How can you expect Parliament to vote on bills for which it has no idea of the cost? How can you expect Canadians to weigh decisions about relative priorities when a blindfold is essentially put on them, not allowing them to know what the truth is? And why, Minister, do you refuse to hand over the documents, refuse to cooperate with the office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and refuse to come clean on these costs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Holland.

Again, I would ask that all questions be through the chair, please.

Mr. Minister.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Of course, it's been made very clear to members of the committee and all parliamentarians that I disagree with the analysis and I disagree with the summary.

But what has been made clear by the law clerk of the House is that if members are not satisfied with the information that has been provided to them, there is the ultimate remedy that they vote against the bill. In most of these cases of the bills we've seen coming through, members have voted for the bill, so they must obviously have been satisfied that the material was sufficient for them to make that determination.

But in respect of the specifics, I would refer this to Commissioner Head to talk about the cooperation that his office had with the budget officer.

Mr. Head.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the offer. But I want to come back to you, Minister, because the reality is that it's not me or Parliament that has a problem with the numbers; it is--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The question was put and we're answering the question at this point.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

No, Mr. Chair, he--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I gave you two minutes on your question, and the minister has taken about 40 seconds on the answer. He has asked Mr. Head.... I'm going to try to keep the questions to the same amount of time as the answer.

Mr. Head, very quickly.

[Don Head, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In terms of the information we provided to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, we provided all the information that was publicly available at the time.

I have subsequently met with the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and we have had some discussions about his methodologies versus ours. We've arranged meetings in the very near future to talk about how we go about developing assumptions and the costing models that are associated with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Head.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

The problem I have, again, so that we're clear, Minister, is not with the costs given. It's that no costs are given.

Let's take the accelerated parole review. We said, very simply, that we wanted to know how much it will cost. In front of this committee, during debate, we were told that we can't know. It's a matter of cabinet confidence, and we can't be told. Amazingly, the day after it was passed, we got a number. And by the way, we were told they're not really sure if that number is right; they're still looking into it.

That's for a passed piece of legislation.

When you say cooperating, with all due respect, through the chair, very simple information on head counts, projected head counts, should be obvious and readily available. My question is very simple. Just on one bill, we have more than 150 pages from the Parliamentary Budget Officer. I have never seen anything to refute anything in that document in a substantive or meaty way. I'm wondering why the minister refuses to hand over the more than 55% of documents the PBO says he needs to do his job. Can he not respect that Parliament can't make a determination on bills when, first, we're refused the numbers--we're not given them at all--and second, the Parliamentary Budget Officer says that he absolutely can't trust the information because he's missing more than 55% of it, even two years after we've engaged this process?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me try to answer those to the extent I can, and I'll leave the rest to Mr. Head. There are a number of questions, about four or five, as I understand, that have been put.

The first question is on the difficulty of attempting to determine the cost of any piece of crime legislation. We went over that quite expansively in a prior committee hearing last week. It wasn't this committee; it was the procedure committee. If my learned friend actually wants to know the answers to the questions he's put, those same questions were put to his colleagues last week.

Let me give one clear example. My staff at Corrections, the commissioner, estimated that as a result of the Truth in Sentencing Act, there would be, by this time this year, an additional 1,300 or so new prisoners in the system. In fact, the number of prisoners is 500. Correctional Services diligently tried to determine exactly what the impact of legislation would be. There are all kinds of costing models. The question is not that they hadn't provided the information; the question is that it's often difficult, if not impossible, to make these kinds of determinations.

Similarly, trying to determine the cost of legislation.... For example, for my colleague, the justice minister, when it came to abolishing the faint hope clause--the elimination of the right to apply for parole after serving 15 years of a life sentence for murder--it was very difficult to determine what the cost would be 15 or 25 years down the road.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We now go to the Bloc Québécois. Madame, vous avez sept minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, minister and gentlemen.

Mr. Minister, I would like to raise a concern relating to the RCMP. On February 15, 2011, the committee held a meeting during which we asked some information from the Forensic Science and Identification Services of the RCMP. I asked Mr. Henschel a question--and Mr. Knecht of the RCMP can probably answer it also--on the fact that it was estimated that 10 to 40% of all criminal offenses are never be recorded in the criminal records database, which means that those offenders have in fact no criminal record. His answer was that he did not know. So, I am wondering if the RCMP has any tools to ensure that...

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Mourani, we have a point of order.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

On a point of order, the minister and the officials are here on estimates and this issue really has nothing to do with estimates. It's dealing with an issue that we've dealt with some time ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie...[Inaudible—Editor]

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Again, Madam Mourani, I would encourage you to stick to the subject that we were to look at this morning.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

I will continue, Mr. Minister.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. I have a point of order. I'd like to clarify this.

It's my understanding that when the minister appears on estimates we are free to ask the minister anything within the portfolio of public safety. In his opening statement the minister referred to many things that were beyond the estimates, including the pardon bill—all sorts of things. So I think we need to be clear that our questions do not have to be restricted to the estimates; it's established in this Parliament, absolutely, that we can ask questions on the portfolio.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Davies, I think my answer was fairly clear that I will give broad latitude in the questions and perhaps even in the answers. You're correct. It is a fairly broad thing. But again, I do tell you that we're here studying the estimates.

So continue, Ms. Mourani. I'll give you some extra time.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I hope this will not be taken from my time. Thank you.

As I said, Mr. Henschel stated that the RCMP has no tools to verify how many cases are not recorded in the criminal records database and that there is no performance report. Considering that your government has been repeating for five years that it is for law and order, I have to say, Mr. Minister, that I am extremely worried when the RCMP tells me that 1.1 million records are not in the database. I am also worried when I hear that there are no tools to control that situation.

Because I found that very hard to believe, I put an access to information request to the RCMP and their answer was very disturbing. I was told that I would have to pay $40,375, representing 4042 hours and 30 minutes--they even included the 30 minutes--for the RCMP to tell me the extent of the backlog. This means that the RCMP does not know how many cases are backlogged and what the impact is on public safety.

Can you tell me, Mr. Minister, if your department has done any investigations about this? Are you going to allocate more financial resources to this issue if it proves necessary?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Again, it's not my department, it's the minister's department, but the questions can come through the chair.

Mr. Minister, please.