Evidence of meeting #25 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was monitoring.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
This Tuesday, the engineers from National Defence seemed to confirm the technical problems of electronic monitoring and GPS technology. What makes you so sure of the effectiveness of this technology?
4:05 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Again, it's about a tool that gives us more information than we have now. If we understand very clearly what the shortfalls and the limitations are, we can adapt our policies and our procedures right now. But the issue or the concern we have is that without a tool like this, at best we're reliant on the goodwill of an offender in the community, and for moderate- to higher-risk offenders, I'm not sure Canadians would want me to put all my eggs in one basket and rely on one that way.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
You also said that electronic monitoring was a tool for strengthening public safety. Witnesses have also told us, however, that electronic monitoring did not really prevent recidivism since the time required for officers to intervene was far too long.
What makes you think that electronic monitoring is going to strengthen public safety?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
There's a couple of things. Again, other reports suggest that maybe there are some levels of deterrence associated with that. That's debatable as well, but the fact that we're going to have more real-time information about the locations of offenders, particularly as they relate to geographic restrictions or coming close to victims, victims' homes, and victims' workplaces, is going to allow us to respond sooner rather than later.
If we see, for example, that somebody is on a track heading toward an area near the victim's home, we can, through protocols arranged with the police, have somebody respond sooner rather than later. The last thing I want to get is a phone call from a victim who is asking: “Why is Don Head in my backyard? He's supposed to be conditioned. How are you supervising this...?” Not that I have that condition, sir....
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Commissioner Head, for being here.
This has been interesting. I thought I had an opinion on EM at the beginning of this study, and we've had some really interesting testimony. I think that we all want to find the most effective way it can be used.
Would you say, then, that your sole purpose, when you look at using EM, would be to reduce recidivism? Or would it be to give you a better way to monitor? What would be the sole purpose and the goal? I think that would help us to know if that means it would be effective.
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I think the best way to describe it is that the purpose would be to give my parole officers a tool to assist them in managing some of the more difficult conditions that are placed on offenders in the community. The more information they have in being able to manage them and, in some cases, to manage them in real time, the more it is going to lead to better public safety, and ultimately, I believe, to better recidivism rates in the long run.
That will have to be proved over time. The immediate thing is giving my parole officers the kinds of tools that will help them to manage offenders who have these kinds of conditions.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Two days ago, the John Howard Society was here, and also the John Howard Society from Manitoba, and they told us about some pilot projects that they've been working on in Manitoba.
One had to do with young offenders, specifically car thieves, who we have had a lot of problems with. The young offenders would literally just rip the bracelets off. Now, what we don't know is, was it because they knew that there was basically no consequence because of their young offender status? Was it because of that? We're not sure.
The other thing they told us about was another pilot project that they're working on, where they're working solely with parole officers and counsellors, and they have a very, very high success rate. It's working very well, and Mr. Hutton—I think that was the gentleman's name—said that it was because of the direct human contact with a parole officer.
My colleague, Mr. Scarpaleggia, referred to that too. An EM can be just a bracelet, an inanimate object that's easy to decide to remove if you don't care, whereas if you're actually meeting with someone, you have some accountability. When it comes to recidivism, there seems to be a real link between the programs and the support, and the bracelet is just a part of it.
Would you agree with that?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Very much so: I think I couldn't be any more clear than the way you've put it. The EM, or any device like that, is a tool, and it has to be part of a continuum approach to managing or supervising offenders in the community.
If I have something that has my parole officers engaging offenders more frequently than with our normal standards of contact, those offenders know that there's somebody out there watching them—minimally. They also know that they're going to have to explain their behaviours, and they're also going to have the opportunity to talk about things that may be happening in their lives that may be troubling them, that may ultimately lead them down a bad path while they're out in the community.
So that continuum of having tools that lead to more and better engagement is going to lead to better public safety.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
As well, we heard testimony the other day from the Centre for Security Science, Defence Research and Development Canada. They weren't really able to provide a whole lot of information because they said they were waiting to see what operational requirements they would be looking at. They did tell us not just about GPS, but also about radio frequency and biometrics as ways of monitoring.
Are you looking at that at all? Where are we in terms of providing this research group with the operational things that we're looking at, so that they would be able to go ahead and start their research?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
We've started some initial engagements with them, and they've indicated that they will help us out in terms of shaping any requests for proposal once the legislation is passed. So they understand our needs. They understand the conditions in which we're going to work.
We also continue to look at the experience of other jurisdictions. We're looking at those jurisdictions that are using biometrics as part of the process. Radio frequency is one of the items, one of the pieces of technology that we've looked at. Radio frequency technology is probably used more in situations where there are curfews. That kind of technology is easier to use there, and you don't need to have the kind of contact you need with satellites through the equipment. Different types have different purposes.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you. We're well over the time.
Thank you, Mr. Head.
We'll now move to Mr. Garrison, please.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Head, for spending so much time with this committee. I feel that we're getting to know you well, and you're probably getting to know us.
You've made reference—and some of the media make reference—to reports on this pilot project. There's talk about both a full report on the project and an internal report on the project. Are these two different reports?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No, there's the evaluation report, which is the report that was being referred to. We have copies available
in English and French for the committee.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
So we could make those part of the evidence for the committee. So there isn't another report that the journalists were referring to, an internal evaluation different from what was published?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No, it's the evaluation report. We do have a literature review document as well, but in terms of the earlier questions, those questions were based on the evaluation report.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
So if I'm right, the reports on the cost of this program indicate that it was just under a million dollars...?
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
This started in September 2008. I'm trying to back up a step and understand why you did the pilot of this project. This technology has existed for a long time, so why, in September 2008, did it seem like a good idea to do this?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
We were.... It was being suggested that this was something we should look at in terms of a possibility for providing tools to our staff. We figured that if we were going to pursue anything there.... Again, we started on the basis that “we're not sure whether this will work for us”, although, as I mentioned, I had my experience in terms of the province and the territory. But a federal parole environment is a little different from the probation environment.
So rather than committing wholeheartedly to it, we decided to go down the path of a pilot. One of the issues we had in the beginning—and still do—in terms of going much broader was that there was not necessarily the policy cover or the legislative cover to allow us to do this in a mandatory way. That's why we started off using a voluntary approach.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
The English language is a wonderful thing with the passive voice. I think you said, “It was suggested...”. Who...? Was this an initiative of the government that came to Corrections Canada or was this something that came internally from you?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Well, we had discussions internally on looking at how we could equip, so we'd had discussions with our own staff and with the unions. The minister of the day, Minister Day, also had suggested that we look at opportunities. We decided that we would look at how we could use some technology to assist us.
At that time, there were a few incidents of individuals who were involved in some incidents in the community. Their conditions, in terms of doing our investigations...when we looked at how certain conditions were being managed, we knew that we had to find a different approach than the one we had been pursuing.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
As a result of this pilot project, are you making further budgetary expenditures on electronic monitoring? Have you submitted budget requests for more funding for another pilot or for additional programming?
February 16th, 2012 / 4:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No. We had set aside money in our budget for the pilot. We had also set aside money for the possibility that the provisions in Bill C-10, which were previously in Bill C-39, or in Bill C-43—I can't remember all the numbers now—might pass. So I'm not asking for any additional moneys. We have money set aside within our...our budget to pursue this if the legislation is passed.