Public Safety Committee on March 8th, 2012

[Claudette Deschênes]

The complexity in the Canadian system is that we don't have an exit, a system.... It's often hard to know if people have actually left the country. Yes, for many of them we know where they are because they have conditions and they report in, or they've been given permission to work and we can find out if they are working or studying. But we don't know where everybody is.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

For the majority of people who have been issued orders, they leave this country voluntarily, yet we have a small percentage who have gone through different processes and only a small percentage of them disappear into...I don't know, the woods, I guess, or somewhere in the country. Would you agree with that statement?

[Claudette Deschênes]

I don't know that I can answer that. From the very beginning of your statement that most people leave voluntarily, I can't comment on that, and I certainly can't comment as an official of Citizenship and Immigration.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Okay.

At the CIC, have you had any discussions with CBSA in regard to electronic monitoring for, say, refugees or the people who have been issued a deportation order?

[Claudette Deschênes]

I'm not aware that there have been discussions on that, no.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

What is your opinion on that?

[Claudette Deschênes]

I don't have an opinion when I'm appearing before a committee.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Chair, that's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

I will just go back to what Mr. Peter Hill said when he was here. He was one of the individuals from CBSA. Ms. Hoeppner asked this question:

Can I ask you to clarify total actual removal orders compared to which ones you've successfully removed?

Mr. Hill's response:

Yes. We have what we refer to as a warrant inventory for removals and a working inventory of individuals who have exhausted all of the recourse mechanisms they have under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. In our working inventory today, we have approximately 17,000 cases, so we're removing about 15,500, as of last year, on an annual basis.

That I think answers the question that has been posed to CBSA; they aren't privy to that information.

Did you want to build on that a bit? You do have another minute.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I would like to follow up on that question to CBSA, or maybe we can have them here.

So you have 17,000 who have been issued deportation orders. Fifteen thousand have left. Now we have 1,500. So what I'm hearing from the CIC officials is that these 1,500 may be going through some sort of process or are still in the system. The government would know.... I assume they would know where these people are at all times. The—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

On the other thing here, Mr. Hill went on to say a little later on:

We have approximately 17,000 cases in our working inventory. We're in the process of taking action to remove those. We have cases where we have warrants for their arrest for removal; in that category, we have approximately 44,000 individuals.

So there is a big difference between the warrants and the actual removals. There are 44,000 there and they're removing about 15,500 a year.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

That's it for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. We'll go back to Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I think it's clear to us. We embarked on this study. We wanted to bring everyone who would be able to bring us some information. Because we were looking at this electronic monitoring as it might be connected to immigration enforcement, I think some members of the committee felt it would be important for you to be here. But I think we're all recognizing right now that there's a bit of a disconnect between what you're doing and what actual enforcement is.

I will take this opportunity, though, to ask you, if you are able, to just describe to us a bit of the process. You receive an application in a variety of ways—whether it's refugees, whether it's work visas; there are all kinds of different ways that you might receive applications for people to come to Canada. When you do decide that maybe this application would be rejected, do you go straight to CBSA, or can you just explain to us the process when an application is rejected and someone has to be removed from the country? Would you just explain that process to us again so that we understand how it gets to CBSA? Does it go to the review board automatically, and what are some of the appeal processes for those individuals?

[Claudette Deschênes]

We'll separate cases that are overseas because those are a different kettle of fish.

For cases in Canada, it depends on what they're seeking to obtain. I'll start with people who are here as visitors and may ask for extensions to remain, or may be here as temporary foreign workers or students and are asking for extensions. In those cases we would normally look at the case, and if the case is simply that they don't meet the qualifications to get an extension, we would likely refuse them, send them a letter, and that would be the end of it. We would assume that these people would leave voluntarily.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Would it have a date attached to it? Would it say, “Here's a letter, we'd like you to leave the country”, or “Your application was rejected”?

[Claudette Deschênes]

Normally if they're looking for an extension they have status, so we would expect them to leave within the status of their application.

I don't know for sure what the letter says. We can check that.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay.

[Claudette Deschênes]

If they are refugee claimants, for example, when they have begun the process we would have written up a report on them. That report would remain dormant while they go through the process. They would go through the IRB a number of months later—or many months or years later, but that's going to be resolved—they would make their case, and then the IRB would decide if they are refugees or not.

If they are refugees, then of course they would be given information about how to apply for permanent residence and that would work its way through.

If they were refused refugee status, at that point the removal order becomes executable, so at that point directly CBSA would be notified, not necessarily by CIC but with the records through IRB, and then it would go into a backlog to start processing towards removal.

While they're doing that, the client might apply for status within Canada. If we became aware of it, we would likely advise CBSA that this person is not entitled to stay in Canada.

If they made a refugee claim or something like that and at that moment we became aware that they have a criminal record in the United States or somewhere, we would likely call either the police or CBSA at that point for them to come and interview the person early in the process.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

You've maybe heard us speaking about approximately 44,000 outstanding warrants right now. Would you have any kind of even anecdotal thoughts on what those would be comprised of? Do you think they're a blend of temporary workers and refugees? Is there a majority, or a certain type of—

[Claudette Deschênes]

I don't know enough about the stats to know that.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

You don't know because it's CBSA. Yes.

Thank you very much for being here. I think that's all the questions we have at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Are there any questions over there?

Go ahead. You have three minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

The average Canadian might like to know this—at least I would. Somebody comes to the country. They're a student. Then they are no longer a student. They say they'd like to stay here longer. They don't qualify. You send them a letter that says “You don't qualify and you must leave”—I would imagine you say “You must leave”—and then that's the end of it.

Is that what you're telling me? That's the end of it?

Are there any steps taken to verify whether they have left or not? I guess that's my question.