Evidence of meeting #82 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rod Knecht  Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service
Geoff Gruson  Executive Director, Police Sector Council
Tammy Thompson  Program Coordinator, START Program
Walter Tielman  Area Director, Department of Justice, Interlake Region, Community and Youth Correction, Government of Manitoba
Christine Tell  Minister, Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan
Dale McFee  Deputy Minister, Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan

10 a.m.

Minister, Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan

Christine Tell

Good morning. Thank you, committee, for allowing us the opportunity to present this morning.

It is my pleasure to be able to present to this committee Saskatchewan's groundbreaking work related to community safety and new views of policing.

At the same time that overall crime rates are dropping, as most of you are aware, Saskatchewan leads the nation in many categories of crime. This is not the kind of trendsetting that I or my cabinet colleagues would like to be known for.

Similar statistics have led to a call to action. In Saskatchewan, government, communities, and individuals are taking a good, hard look at the realities of the numbers, in both the volume of crime and the costs incurred to combat it.

We know that finding capacity in an increasingly demanding policing environment has become a challenge for jurisdictions across North America. At the same time, the costs of administering police services, or for that matter the criminal justice system, are on the rise. The crimes, and the criminals who commit them, are becoming more sophisticated and more complex. This is all adding up to a situation that is becoming untenable.

Saskatchewan's deputy minister of corrections and policing, Dale McFee, has spoken to you previously about the incredible work that's being done in communities across the province to build a foundation for community safety and wellness. As he's pointed out, it began with Prince Albert's community mobilization initiative to reduce crime in that city.

From a larger perspective, the Hub and COR models being used in Prince Albert, and replicated in communities across the province, is a testament to how we as Saskatchewan residents got our reputation for innovating. We have taken a germ of an idea and turned it into a movement that gains momentum every day. Of course we're very pleased with this.

In his last representation to you, Dale McFee told you that reports out of Prince Albert show, as a result of the Hub and COR models, that the violent crime rate for that city dropped 11.8% in the first year and 31.9% in year two.

As the minister responsible for corrections and policing, I can tell you how proud we are to be recognized nationally and internationally for this work. As a member of a government whose jurisdiction is seeing dramatic growth in our population and economy, I can tell you there is excitement in the air. Our belief is that our potential is limitless. But I can also tell you it's a bit worrisome. It's worrisome because we know we have to have the appropriate foundations for ensuring that this growth is sustainable, and that any potential consequences related to growth, like the implications of burgeoning job markets, infrastructure deficits, and increased crime, are mitigated.

In fact, just a few months ago, Premier Brad Wall introduced the Saskatchewan Plan for Growth. This plan contemplates an articulate, thoughtful approach to continued growth backstopped by appropriate resources for maintaining the stability of necessary economic and social foundations. These foundations include safe, healthy communities. This is where the Saskatchewan government's Building Partnerships to Reduce Crime approach comes in. Government support through funding, technical resources, and innovative services, supplied by my ministry, provides communities that want to create their own community safety and wellness mechanisms with the means to do so.

By its nature, the Hub, as a community mobilization process, engages representatives of the criminal justice system, police, and probation officers. It requires the involvement of representatives from social services, health, and education agencies. To be relevant, the Hub needs to take a cradle-to-grave approach, addressing the needs of at-risk individuals from the time their risky behaviour first becomes known until they “age out” of the system.

Experts have recognized that the entry point for individuals to engage in anti-social behaviour is around the age of 12. This risk continues until around the age of 24. It follows that the province's recently announced child and family agenda, aimed at creating strong, healthy families who can benefit from Saskatchewan's growth, has taken into account this piece when creating its goals.

If we can get to these young people early with the appropriate levels of literacy, mental and physical health, and family and community supports, we can deflect many of the negative influences that result in lost potential from our youth.

Of course, this discussion is all about reducing the cost of policing to governments at all levels. There is more that we're doing in Saskatchewan, and I'd like to talk about this.

As a result of our work on building partnerships to reduce crime, we are looking at the human resources our ministries are providing as a continuum of support. The question is, what do I really mean by that? Representatives of the criminal justice system cannot work in isolation from health or social services when we know that around 30% of the individuals arrested for committing what might be termed “petty crimes” have mental health issues. We can't be successful in rehabilitating offenders if we know that they can't get jobs because they can't read. We need to include our education experts in the mix.

I would like to think that we're taking a holistic view of how we're organizing government around tackling these social issues. Resulting strategies need to be client centred. The old paradigm of delivering programs to fit the needs of a bureaucratic structure is just not on anymore. We need to look at how citizens are best served and organize our administrative structures around those needs.

For the next few minutes I'd like to turn our discussion to other ways the province is seeking out ways to mitigate increasing and rising policing costs. One of the solutions we're currently examining is an expansion of our existing model, special constables, beyond their current limited application. Right now, in Saskatchewan special constables are trained to provide law enforcement in first nations communities only. The advantage here is that individuals of first nations descent who are trained as special constables for their home communities are familiar with their own culture and social norms and know the people they are working with. In the same vein, appointing special constables in other communities to enforce local bylaws or to take on lower-risk community policing duties frees up sworn police officers to do the heavy lifting with the high-risk crime and criminals. Extending that concept further across the criminal justice system, correctional officials are also looking at a similar model for how low-risk offenders are being supervised in the community. By using the special constable model as it relates to probation officers, other resources are freed up to provide closer supervision on offenders who are posing a greater risk to commit crimes that are obviously more serious or more violent.

The point here is that by encouraging these innovative applications of what might be seen as old ideas, Saskatchewan is creating new practices that are already anchored in success. In aiming to chalk up additional successes we need to ensure that we are collecting the most accurate and appropriate evidence. Saskatchewan is embarking on partnerships with members of academia in the social sciences to create a centre of excellence for community safety. Dale McFee will have the details on that pursuit. Let me say that such a facility, whether it be bricks and mortar or the interconnectedness that our Internet brings, will create the ability to attach to academic and forensic evidence to up our game in building and measuring community safety models.

I can tell you that Dale has the support of Saskatchewan's provincial government as he pursues the actions and initiatives he has designated as priorities for him and his team. I am hoping that in turn my government can count on you for your support so that we can extend the reach of Saskatchewan's solutions to reducing crime rates and their accompanying social and economic costs.

Thank you.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Minister.

Deputy Minister McFee, did you have a statement as well?

10:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan

Dale McFee

No. I'm just here if there are any questions.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. Thank you.

We'll move into the first round of questions quickly.

Ms. Bergen, please. You have seven minutes.

April 25th, 2013 / 10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the guests for being here today.

We certainly are hearing a very similar message, whether it's from Calgary, Halifax, or Toronto, and then today from rural communities like Selkirk and Stonewall, about this Hub and COR approach, or a multi-agency approach.

What we as a committee want to find out is how is it actually helping to save resources and making sure that policing is done in a more efficient manner, and I think we're hearing that in terms of prevention and reduced calls, etc.

I want to focus on the START program. When I met with Tammy and Walter initially, during the break week a few weeks ago, I was excited because it was a rural example. We haven't heard a lot of examples of rural communities being able to do this. It's also a little different because it appears that it's not police driven as much as it's driven by the actual program, and then bringing in different organizations.

I was also impressed that there actually has been some research done. The University of Winnipeg did some research into the START program, if I'm correct. Could you tell us a little bit about those findings? Could you speak specifically to the findings in terms of reduced crime rates and how it relates to police work directly? What did the research tell you?

10:10 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

The research really hit on all the areas that we've always felt we had success with. It was almost a justification for us in getting the evaluation. We knew we were doing a really good job at bringing the agencies together, getting people around the table and communicating, building more of a community base to deal with at-risk youth—ours is with youth. So it was to work with those youths together, as opposed to working within those silos.

We have a fantastic rate of getting kids who weren't in school back in school, which is definitely a huge factor in keeping them out of the criminal realm.

We saw great effects. Fully 100% of the police officers who were interviewed about our program said they strongly felt that the program had helped the relationship between the youth in our community, especially at-risk youth, and the RCMP, and that we had been able to reduce calls for service from the RCMP. There are so many findings.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Were the reduced calls for the RCMP an opinion, or was that actually a finding in the research?

10:10 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

There were three different levels of research. One is looking over a database, one was interviews, and one was an anonymous survey. They compiled all of those together to come up with that conclusion.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Was there actually a number that the calls were reduced by, or was there a percentage?

10:10 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

They didn't say specifically in that way. The one example we did have was out of Stonewall, which Walter has already quoted, about Sergeant Mark Morehouse stating that in their first year of running this model their incidents with youth had decreased by 50%.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

By 50%?

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

I know you talked a little bit about the funding of it, and I think I mentioned to you that our government has invested $40 million into the national crime prevention strategy. As well, we've made permanent the Youth Gang Prevention Fund. I would suggest that you look at both of those programs, because there may be some opportunity with the work you do...I know you said there is a small deficiency; it's not a huge one, but it's definitely one that impacts what you do.

Our government has been very consistent and in fact proactive in support of national crime and crime prevention strategies, and we really support the type of thing you're doing, which is small, local, results oriented, and you actually can measure your results. So that's something you can count on our government to continue to support. I would encourage you to look into those programs.

I also thought it was interesting the other ways your programs are funded. Different agencies, including the school board, contribute funding.

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

Absolutely.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Could you quickly tell us how that works? Then I want to ask the minister from Saskatchewan if their program works the same way, if the Hub and COR is sort of a multi-funded approach.

Ms. Thompson, would you mind telling us how your program is funded?

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

Our program truly is a community program. We are run by a board that has all of the executive people within our community from each of the agencies on it, and each one of them, or the majority of them, are funders of the program as well.

Our main funders, besides previously being Service Canada and Justice, are now Children and Youth Opportunities, from the Province of Manitoba Child and Family Services; the school division in each of the areas, in our case the Lord Selkirk School Division; the City of Selkirk and the two surrounding RMs; and also in kind the RCMP detachment. They provide the office space and all of my equipment.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

And you have security clearance with the RCMP, so you know when.... That's really your interaction with the police service?

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

That kind of reminds me of something Mr. McFee said the last time he was here, which stuck out for me and a few committee members. He said it's leadership, not ownership, and I think we know what you're telling us rings true.

Minister Tell, thank you so much for being here, and congratulations on all the good things that are happening in Saskatchewan.

Can you comment, from what you've heard Ms. Thompson talk about? It's a little more community-driven, and yet it seems to have some of the same results. Would you be able to compare and contrast the Hub and COR programs? Are we talking about the same things? Again, it's a different so-called ownership model.

10:15 a.m.

Minister, Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan

Christine Tell

Yes, and there's no cost to the Hub in the various communities. It's just a bringing together of all these organizations—social services, health, and police. It's also run by a governance board, so you're right; you're talking about no one organization or entity owning this thing. The community truly does.

The province itself funds $450,000 for the COR. We have an executive director and two analysts. This is where all the research is coming from to support the various community entities. Each, whether it be social services or health, put in $25,000 per year to support the initiatives being driven out of the various communities and the Hub, and supporting obviously the centre of excellence or the COR in the big picture.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll move into the next round of questioning.

Madame Michaud.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I first want to thank the witnesses for being here.

My first questions are for Ms. Thompson.

The START program, which you describe here, is extremely interesting. I was disappointed to learn that your funding had been reduced recently.

Were you given any explanations when the Service Canada funding was withdrawn?

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

It is my understanding that the funding model that we were funded under, Skills Link, has shifted slightly. The area we were funded under no longer exists.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Can you give us further details?

What was the area you were funded under?

10:15 a.m.

Program Coordinator, START Program

Tammy Thompson

It was Skills Link.