Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2014

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

You'll have to hear it from the national parole board, but I believe you'll find that those are the standard issues that the national parole board uses when it considers parole for any individual serving a custodial sentence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go to Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie, for bringing forward your remarks on this particular bill.

I do say in beginning, Mr. Chair, that I have somewhat the same concern as expressed by Mr. Garrison about the number of private member's bills that are coming forward by backbench Conservative members that all have an impact on either the Criminal Code or the corrections act. Sometimes I think they're in contradiction.

The last bill we had, C-479, was actually a bill designed to reduce the number of Parole Board hearings, and we didn't hear from the Parole Board in that case. We should have. This one increases the number of Parole Board hearings.

I just think from a government member's perspective, it would make more sense to tie all this stuff together, all these conditions that people are looking for private member's bills on and bring them forward in a comprehensive way. The last two private member's bills we studied had more amendments than clauses. I submit that for the last one—C-479—I think we actually amended it so that we changed the intent of the bill. That's a concern I have, just so that you're aware.

In terms of the specifics of this bill, can you tell us how many cases across Canada this would actually apply to?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Easter, I already responded to Mr. Garrison. I'm not sure. It will not be a large number, simply by virtue of the fact that there are not that many prisoners in the system who this applies to.

I would say to you, though, sir, with all due respect, that on our side backbenchers can bring private members' bills forward. It may not be true of other parties, I don't know, but on our side you can bring a private member's bill forward, and I'm very pleased to have brought this forward.

The other aspect of this is that I don't know how it would increase to the big number that you may anticipate with national parole. In the case that we're talking about, national parole had a hearing and said that the person shouldn't be released.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Coming to what the parliamentary secretary said earlier, you're saying that there are not many cases. When I listened to the parliamentary secretary's line of questioning, I was sitting here thinking that the system must be inundated with people, with victims, victims' families, who are having a problem with wardens granting this temporary release. That's the contradiction I'm seeing between the two, because to listen to the parliamentary secretary, you'd think it was huge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Ms. James has a point of order.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Just for the record, I didn't once say the system was inundated by victims or victims' families. I just want to clarify that. I did not say that. There was no contradiction in our testimony.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That was the tone of questioning from the parliamentary secretary, clearly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Tone is one thing, Mr. Easter. If it was a direct referral, that's another. Please carry on.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes, Mr. Chair. Will do.

In this particular case, I'm assuming that the warden did grant the temporary release. Is that correct?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I believe that you will find, from witnesses, it's several releases.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Okay, several. Because we're looking at the public safety issue here as well, do you know if any of the offenders who were released by a warden on a temporary release committed another offence? Do you know of any?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'm not aware of that.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

A November 2012 briefing document sent to the previous public safety minister, Vic Toews, said temporary absences play an important role in helping offenders reintegrate into society.

It cites the “low rate of failure” arising from temporary absences. It goes on to say, “A gradual, structured, and supervised release process represents an effective means of contributing to public safety”.

Can you provide the committee with any evidence that information provided by the minister was inaccurate, because one has to look at the consequences of this? If you're saying this is needed, then where's the case that shows that what Minister Toews was saying is wrong?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I don't think we're saying for one minute that rehabilitative releases are inappropriate. They are appropriate, but in some cases those decisions need to be made by national parole and not by the prison warden. That's all we're saying here, that in these cases national parole should have the decision to say yes or no, whether or not.

Sir, with all due respect, you were Solicitor General at one time and you know that national parole does make releases based on a variety of factors, including conditions and so on.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

There's no question.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I don't think you or I would disagree with that.

Where we disagree perhaps here is with that role, not because it's taken up by the prison wardens outside of their mandate, it's within their mandate, but what we're saying, and what I'm saying, is that decision should remain with national parole in those cases.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

What we're talking about here is the last three years of their sentencing.

We also know, according to Vic Toews and other evidence, that a temporary release actually assists in terms of public safety. The victims and victims' families had the opportunity to appear before the Parole Board in previous cases. All that's accurate. I think I'm correct in that. Do we want to place another burden on the Parole Board when it may not be necessary to do so? In looking at that, can you tell us what you expect the costs to be?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I suspect they would be very low, because the national parole board is already hearing these people and the national parole board is saying no. I would agree that there are times when release is appropriate, but we have people in prisons in Canada today who are not going to get released for rehabilitative purposes, and we all know that. Some of these are those same people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacKenzie and Mr. Easter.

Now we go back to Mr. Garrison, please, for five minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to return to the points. I've had a bit of advice and I've gone through the bill again. I still don't see that this bill limits this to those convicted of murdering police or prison guards. I don't find that anywhere in the bill, and in the brief advice I've had, we can't find that.

So I was wondering whether it was your intention to limit the bill to that, and if so, would you support an amendment to your bill to limit the effect of your bill to the murder of police or prison guards?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I don't know at this point that I would say to you, yes, no, or otherwise, with respect to amendments that you may bring forward. It's my impression that this will apply only to those situations in which it gets into the last three years, and it has to be at that point.

I'm not arguing with you about that situation, but I do believe you're going to find that it is those who murder police and prison guards who find themselves in this situation given the length of time for the sentence.

I have correspondence from people who were victims of rape, and they have the same problem, but the sentence didn't meet this same standard here. I could direct you to correspondence or to newspaper articles from a St. Catharines woman who was brutally victimized and then was shocked when the perpetrator was turned down for national parole, but under the system.... But that's not what I'm talking about here. We're only talking about first- and second-degree murder.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Okay. I'm not trying to badger you on this, but you said it's for first- and second-degree murder. I believe that's what it says. I think you'll find that's a far larger category and that has the potential to increase workload at the Parole Board.

You were asked before about the rate of failure on these temporary escorted absences, which you would make so much harder to get. Everything we have seen from the documents presented by the Conservative ministers shows that the success rates on escorted temporary absence are very high. They're in the 90% range. So what is the threat to public safety that we're trying to address here?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'm not suggesting that's the whole issue. The big part of the issue is that once it goes to the head of the institution, the victims are then out of the system. They've been in the system right up to that point. I think for the purpose of people having confidence in the justice system, we put that in there to deal with national parole, and I believe everybody respects national parole. We may not always agree with their decision, but at least this decision is made under a system that we can understand. When these people end up with the head of the institution, there's no involvement.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Well, with respect, there is, when they come up for full parole. They're not permanently excluded from the process. It's only evaluating the temporary absences in that period, but when the person comes back to apply—