Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was video.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Paulson  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Colleagues, we'll give the media time to leave the room, please, with the cameras.

Welcome to meeting 52 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. I welcome my colleagues back from their ridings. Certainly we welcome Commissioner Paulson here today.

Just as a little backgrounder for my colleagues, on Tuesday evening, March 3, I received a request from Commissioner Paulson to convene this committee meeting on Friday, March 6, at 11 a.m. for a period of one hour, to publicly display and discuss a video connected to the terrorist event here on October 22. As this had previously been requested with a motion passed by this committee, early on Wednesday morning I had a brief discussion with the clerk and subsequently sent out a notice of this meeting. I should also note, of course, just from a point of interest, that a similar motion had been passed in the Senate.

Today we will allot Commissioner Paulson approximately 15 minutes to make the presentation, offer some comments, and present the contents of a video. For the balance of the hour, we will have committee Qs and As in our traditional period of questioning: a first round of seven minutes, split however the committee membership decides, and then five minutes to committee members until the expiration of that hour.

The chair would also note that as per the request of Commissioner Paulson and as is also contained in the original motion, today's meeting is public and will be televised. Of course it is carried on the House of Commons broadcasting network. That is for everybody's information.

I will now turn the floor over to Commissioner Paulson for his presentation.

Welcome again, sir.

11:05 a.m.

Commr Bob Paulson Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I appear before you this morning in response to your request to release the video related to the attack of October 22, 2014. We seized this video as evidence from the cellphone recovered from the car driven by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau after he murdered Corporal Cirillo and then stormed the grounds of this Parliament armed with a rifle. Of course, we all know he was killed by our brave RCMP and parliamentary security personnel, including the Sergeant-at-Arms, who actively pursued him inside.

I would also like to update Parliament, and through you, Canadians, on the state of our investigative response to this unprecedented attack on our Parliament.

First, permit me to say clearly that the RCMP is engaged in an active criminal investigation to either establish or refute whether anyone aided, abetted, facilitated, counselled, or conspired with Zehaf-Bibeau to commit the crimes he did.

Let me also say that if Zehaf-Bibeau had not been killed but rather taken into custody, we would have charged him with terrorist offences. The Criminal Code provides the definition for terrorist activity at paragraph 83.01(1)(b). The RCMP believes, on the evidence, that Zehaf-Bibeau was a terrorist.

Anyone who aided him, abetted him, counselled him, facilitated his crimes or conspired with him is also in our view a terrorist and where the evidence exists, we will charge them with terrorist offences.

Not relevant to us or our investigation is what kind of a terrorist Zehaf-Bibeau was, or if he was a particularly intelligent, sophisticated, influential, or personally disciplined terrorist. To us, it all turns on the evidence we collect, which we compare against the statute: what was he doing and why was he doing it?

The RCMP is not, nor should we be, in the habit of publicly discussing evidence or evidence collection during an active investigation. The RCMP asserts and zealously defends its operational independence in the conduct of its affairs. I am departing slightly from that practice in this case, having regard for the enormous public interest attached to this case and this committee's request of me.

To tell you a bit about this video now, and what accounts for the delay between October 2014 and today, I first learned about the video when I was briefed on its discovery during the forensic examination of the cellphone seized from the suspect's vehicle. It was the Sunday following the attack. I directed that a press release be issued that day. My thinking was that announcing the existence of the video would, while we were examining and assessing it, ensure against any subsequent criticism that we were concealing the existence of this evidence.

What followed were dynamic discussions within the RCMP about the evidentiary value and the operational utility of this video. We also had to carefully consider what impact its public release could have not only on this investigation, but also what impact it might have on others. We weighed the video's release against the knowledge that it could serve to further radicalize and ultimately incite more violence.

We considered that the video will be used by terrorist elements and sympathizers to facilitate recruitment, financing, and action. On this point, we remain concerned but frankly speaking, that's not our place. It's not our role. But as one of my officers put it to me, if not us, then who? We have the video, and I think it's a fair question.

This video is plainly evidence; of that there is no question, but just what criminality it is evidence of can only ultimately be decided by a court having jurisdiction to weigh and assess it. We aren't there yet, so we in the RCMP have to ask ourselves how we can maximize its utility and probity at bringing forward a criminal case, if ever we do.

Initially, I was inclined to release the video in its entirety, but I was persuaded by the operational decision-makers in the investigation not to do so. Even today, as I show you the video, I must point out that it is not the entire video. There are in total 18 seconds edited from the beginning and the end of the video: 13 seconds at the beginning and 5 at the end.

I am satisfied that there are reasonable and sound operational reasons for these edits, and you will no doubt want to understand these reasons too. Unfortunately, for the very same reasons that we have edited the video, I cannot explain to you at this point why we have done so.

It is not lost on me either that the government is bringing forward new laws to strengthen the fight against terrorism. The release of this video at this time could be seen as seeking to influence that process. I assure you that I have no such motive. The video speaks for itself. It is what it is.

It is not lost on me either that the government is bringing forward new laws to strengthen the fight against terrorism. The release of this video at this time could be seen as seeking to influence that process. I assure you I have no such motive. The video speaks for itself. It is what it is.

You must understand that I have teams of dedicated professional investigators and specialists working tirelessly to pursue this very case to its conclusion, and it's in everybody's interest to let them do what they do best: investigate.

Through our INSET structure, the RCMP has over 130 full-time investigators and staff presently working on this case. We've interviewed over 400 individuals, from the people he associated with in British Columbia, to the people with whom he rode the Greyhound bus, to the people who saw him at the shelter in Ottawa.

We know now that Zehaf-Bibeau became increasingly aligned with terrorist ideology in the last years of his life while living in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia and for a short period in Alberta.

We know that in August 2014 he applied for a Canadian passport at a Vancouver location, where he was later informed that a passport would not immediately be forthcoming and that his application was subject to further review. Beginning on September 23 and continuing to October 2, Zehaf-Bibeau made his way to Ottawa by hitchhiking and travelling on a Greyhound bus. During at least one leg of the bus trip he told other passengers that his purpose for travelling to Ottawa was to secure a passport.

We now know that within two hours of arriving in Ottawa, Zehaf-Bibeau went to the Libyan embassy to renew his then-expired Libyan passport. He was a dual national. He was told that his application would have to be sent to Libya due to discrepancies in identification documents. This process was expected to take three to four weeks to resolve.

Two days later, on October 4, surveillance cameras on Parliament Hill captured Zehaf-Bibeau on the grounds as he took a guided tour of Centre Block. From our review of the video and speaking to people on the Hill that day, there was nothing remarkable about his participation in that tour that ought to have led either RCMP members deployed on the Hill or other security personnel to be suspicious of his presence.

Throughout his time in Ottawa, Zehaf-Bibeau used publicly available Internet and pay phones in various locations across the city. We now know that he used this as a means to stay in contact with individuals both in the Ottawa region and in British Columbia. We have been able to identify some of these individuals and we continue to pursue this avenue.

We have a full understanding of his finances and the disbursements he made prior to this attack. On the days leading up to October 22, Zehaf-Bibeau made arrangements to buy a car. On October 21 he finalized the deal and used cash to purchase the vehicle. Upon taking possession he drove to Mont Tremblant to visit a relative, where he was seen with a long knife.

Very early the next morning, October 22, he was observed by witnesses placing a rifle in the trunk of his car. Hours later he shot and killed Corporal Cirillo, got back in his car and then stormed Parliament. I've shared with you his approach to this building.

We have not been able to confirm the origins of the gun. We are releasing a photo of the gun, which seems unique, in the hope that someone might recognize it. I can confirm that he had a long knife tied to his wrist when he was killed. We did not find any other guns or weapons in his car, among his possessions, or at any of the other locations we now know he visited in the hours leading up to the attack.

I have been advised that he was shot many, many times, but exactly how many times I can't say because I don't know. We await the detailed findings of the OPP, who were engaged to independently investigate the police-involved shooting inside Parliament. The video from inside this building forms part of that line of inquiry and is with the OPP.

I can confirm that the autopsy toxicology screen on Zehaf-Bibeau's remains was negative for drugs and alcohol. Neither did we uncover any evidence of drug or alcohol used by him in the period leading up to his attack.

It was during the search of his vehicle following the attack that we found Zehaf-Bibeau's mobile phone. Our forensic analysis, which began immediately and progressed quickly, revealed the video.

We have been able to determine with exact precision the time and location where Zehaf-Bibeau made this video. As you will see in a moment, Zehaf-Bibeau filmed himself in his car with the phone immediately prior to the attack at the National War Memorial. We have established that he did this while parked at a lot near 464 Metcalfe Street. He looks directly into the camera, appears very purposeful and lucid, and talks about his motivations for the attack to come.

The audio is not great. It is sufficient, though, to understand what he says. I am providing copies of a transcript in both languages of what he says.

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

I am at your disposal to answer any questions I can. Having regard for the ongoing nature of this case, there may be information I cannot share.

Here's the video.

[Video Presentation]

That concludes my presentation, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Commissioner Paulson.

We will now go to our rounds of questioning.

We will turn to the parliamentary secretary, Ms. James, for up to seven minutes.

Are you splitting your time?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

I'm probably taking my whole seven minutes, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Paulson, for being here today. I just want to say that we respect and recognize the independence of the RCMP and the ongoing investigation into this matter.

I have to tell you I almost need to take a breath after seeing that video and reading the transcript of what we just saw. It's rather disturbing.

I want to go back to the attacks against our Canadian Armed Forces in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu and those on October 22 at the National War Memorial and right here in Parliament, which we witnessed.

These were not random attacks against an individual or a place of employment. These were attacks against our national security and our institutions of governance, so there's a clear difference here.

I'm glad that in your opening remarks you clearly indicated that it was a terrorist attack. I know you came out shortly after the incident had happened and said that it was a terrorist attack. You have reiterated that here.

For all the members here in committee today and for people who may be watching from home, I know you are very familiar with the Criminal Code. In your opening remarks, you referred to paragraph 83.01(1)(b) on the definition of terrorism, but I'd like to just read it for a moment:

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada, (i) that is committed (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and (ii) that intentionally (A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence, (B) endangers a person’s life, (C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public.

According to the testimony you have provided, what we just witnessed through the video that you provided, and the transcript that I read, this was a barbaric killing of an unarmed Canadian soldier. It was an attack against the very thing that represents Canada—the Government of Canada—and clearly what we saw on that particular day falls into the definition of terrorism.

Could you confirm that the definition applies very clearly to what we witnessed here on October 22?

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Mr. Chair, I guess I would say this. In the course of our duties in an investigation, we collect evidence. As I said in my opening remarks, we put that against the statute. It seems squarely to fall within those parameters.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

We have seen a number of attacks around the world recently, in Copenhagen, in Paris, in Sydney, and also, of course, on October 22 and two days prior, right here on Canadian soil. There are a lot of similarities in all of these attacks, regardless in what country they happened. They're very clearly anchored in religion, in beliefs that are opposite to what we here in Canada believe: openness and tolerance of others.

Witnessing this video and again reading the transcript you provided and hearing your testimony clearly show that there's a link between all of these attacks that we're seeing around the world. Could you comment on that, please?

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Thanks again for the question.

When you say “link”, in the police vernacular we look for plain linkages: knowledge, relationships, and connections. In that sense, there is not, but obviously, to go to the heart of your question, in terms of the motivations and the driving sort of ideology, they seem to be similarly motivated.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you. I wasn't referring to the individuals maybe connecting to one another, so I'm glad you clarified that and specified motivation.

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Oh, I'm sorry.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

I perhaps used the wrong word and I appreciate your correcting that for me. Thank you so much.

I think there's a question we have to ask in seeing this, knowing that many people have allegedly left Canada to travel overseas to possibly engage in terrorism to join ISIL. Can I ask if the RCMP is at a heightened state in general?

11:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Yes, we are. Of course, we have said previously that we're at a very heightened state in terms of having to address the risk that we assess attaching to the individuals who have been identified as what we refer to as high-risk travellers or high-risk individuals within this counterterrorism framework.

As I've said, I have not seen a tempo and a pace of operations like this. We have refined our practices in terms of priority management of some of these targets, but it is an unprecedented realignment of our resources to address that.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

In your opening remarks, you indicated that there was an autopsy performed to see if there were any drugs or alcohol present and clearly the evidence indicates that it was not the case. This is not someone who was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of this incident. Is that a fair statement?

11:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

To continue in the cop vernacular, none of the intoxicants that we screen for were noted. They are typically alcohol, most of your common drugs, and opiate-based stimulants and so on. It's limited by the scope of the tox screen.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Ms. James.

We will now go to Mr. Garrison.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Paulson, for being here today.

I think that having seen the video, all of us find it a bit chilling. I do understand that there are reasons for not being able to show the entire video. I look forward to that being possible at some point in the future.

What it reminds me of first of all is the death of Nathan Cirillo here. All of us, I think, have him in our hearts and minds as we go through this incident. The second thing it reminds me of is the day after the incident when we as parliamentarians came back into the House and were sitting again to send that very strong signal to the world that we would not be cowed by this incident or the incident in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu that resulted in the death of Patrice Vincent.

We will be looking forward to seeing the final report. As a former police board member, I know that you can never ask the police when the report is done, because it's done when it's done.

I do have two questions for you.

In your presentation, you mentioned the issue of resources and the large number of people you have working on this case. I'd like to ask you about a statement you made to the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence on October 27, when you said that you had to transfer 300 resources over to national security from other areas of policing. This raises the question of whether you have adequate resources to actually deal with the nature of the threats we're facing at present. Do you have any comments on that today?

11:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

The answer to that question is, yes, we have enough resources to deal with the threat we're facing, but again, as you've referenced in my testimony at the Senate and again today, we're taking now a little over 600 resources from other areas of our federal responsibility to transfer those full-time equivalent positions into the counterterrorism world.

As I say, it's a question of prioritizing. We have enough people who are working these cases, but they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Could you give us some idea of where those resources are coming from, in other words, what are you shifting from in order to focus on counterterrorism?

11:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Right. We're shifting our federal resources, so things from organized crime cases, drug cases, financial integrity cases, the federal mandate. I should also say that we are relying on the great partnerships we have with police forces across this country. We have about 60 resources brought in from other police forces to work with us. Some of the major city police forces have been great in terms of stepping up and taking some of the load. I think it's a phenomenon that is affecting all of the police community across Canada.

That's the short answer.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

My second question has to do with counter-radicalization programs. You said in your statement that Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau had become influenced by extremist ideology.

I'm really asking about the progress of the RCMP's strategy for counter-radicalization, which some have characterized as sitting on the shelf for a very long time. Can you advise us on what progress is being made on working with communities in particular to counter radicalization?

11:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

I don't think that's a fair characterization. It's not sitting on a shelf.

Let me just start by saying that in terms of our responsibility as the RCMP, our mandate, established by the RCMP Act, contemplates us doing a couple of things. One of them is to pursue and apprehend offenders. The other thing is to prevent crime. In that sense we have, and always have had, a very robust crime prevention approach to our responsibilities. It's perhaps trite to say that if you can prevent crime, you don't have to investigate it. It's getting to be very complex and very labour intensive to investigate, to a criminal justice outcome, crime.

That said, as I've testified at this committee several times, we have talked about some of the things we are doing in our terrorist prevention regime, from our counterterrorism information officers to our community outreach programs to now the application of what is commonly referred to as a hub kind of approach to dealing with opportunities, because not all of these offenders, not all of these individuals, present as high-likelihood success stories for an intervention, for a prevention action.

Within our high-risk-individual framework, we have developed a system whereby individuals are identified. If they present a risk, our primary responsibility is to keep Canadians safe, so we have investigative measures that we apply. Judicial interventions are sought—a peace bond is one of the issues in this new legislation—to try to bring conditions to mitigate the threat. For those people where we assess that they are good candidates for intervention, we will bring together a host of resources that already exist within many communities to try to intervene, to try to engage with family members, and to bring in counsellors, religious authorities, and others who can intervene to try to dissuade the individual from pursuing this path of radicalization.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you.

I'd like to turn my last minute over to Madam Doré Lefebvre.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair and Mr. Garrison.

Mr. Paulson, thank you for being with us at this committee. I think it is important that we review the events that took place on October 22.

I want to ask you a brief question on a particular aspect and I hope you will be able to talk about it. I know that you are carrying out an investigation, but can you tell me whether Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau had a history of mental illness? Are you considering that aspect in your investigation of the events of October 22?

11:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Commr Bob Paulson

Thank you for your question.

We are considering all aspects of his life. We have not found that he had had any particular mental health challenges. I know that there were interventions.

Nevertheless, the evidence that we have acquired does not speak to any mental health issues. As I said in the first part of my answer, there is a history of mental health issues for him, but we're not pursuing that in the sense of your question.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you, Madam Doré Lefebvre.

Mr. Norlock, you have the floor, sir.