Evidence of meeting #71 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was passport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Ritu Banerjee  Director, Operational Policy and Review, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Sophie Beecher  Counsel, Public Safety Canada, Legal Services, Department of Justice
Amanda Taschereau  Policy Adviser, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
David Vigneault  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Security and Intelligence, Privy Council Office
Isabelle Mondou  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet and Counsel to the Clerk of the Privy Council, Privy Council Office

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Good morning, colleagues. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 71.

Today, of course, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have referred to us from the finance committee a couple of issues in the budget. The first deals with the prevention of terrorist travel act, and the other part is the parliamentary protective service on the Hill, here. I would ask all my colleagues to consider the relevance of those topics, which have been referred from the finance committee, in your discussion.

We welcome our witnesses who are with us today for the first hour. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness we have John Davies, director general of national security policy. We also have Ritu Banerjee, director, operational policy and review. Also, we have Amanda Taschereau, policy adviser. As well, from the Department of Justice, we have Sophie Beecher, counsel for Public Safety Canada, legal services.

Welcome all to this committee, and welcome back, many of you.

Certainly you have the floor now for opening statements, should you wish.

8:45 a.m.

John Davies Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to provide a brief overview of the measures being proposed in Bill C-59, specifically with regard to the prevention of terrorist travel act in tandem with the proposed changes to the Canadian passport order. The proposed amendments underline the government's continuing commitment to strengthen national security and protect Canadians at home and abroad, as they are intended to address the evolving global threat environment.

To begin, let me provide you with a brief overview of the changes to the Canadian Passport Order announced on May 7 related to national security.

First, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness will have the authority to cancel a passport when there is reasonable grounds to suspect it will prevent the commission of a terrorism offence, or for national security purposes. After a passport is cancelled, law enforcement and border control partners are notified and the passport can no longer be used for travel. However, cancellation is a temporary measure used until investigation is completed. If at the conclusion of an investigation there are insufficient grounds to revoke the passport, the passport will be reissued to the individual.

In some circumstances the passport may be cancelled by the minister without prior notice to the individual. In these instances the individual will be notified as soon as possible after the cancellation.

The order also provides an administration reconsideration mechanism to challenge passport cancellation decisions. Once a person has been advised of a cancellation, they are given 30 days to respond and provide information that will be taken into account by the minister when reconsidering the decision to cancel. The individual can appeal the cancellation before the Federal Court of Canada within 30 days of the date on which they receive the notice of the reconsideration decision. Provisions to appeal cancellation are provided for in proposed section 4 of the prevention of terrorist travel act.

Second, the minister can also refuse or revoke a passport when there are reasonable grounds to believe it will prevent the commission of a terrorism offence, or for national security purposes.

Finally, the order also provides the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness the authority to refuse passport services for up to 10 years, during which an individual may not apply for a passport. During a period of refusal of passport services, a person may be required to travel on an urgent, compelling, or compassionate basis. There is an existing mechanism administered by Passport Canada to allow them to travel under these circumstances.

In these situations, an individual may submit an application for a temporary passport for travel and provide the documents necessary to support the justification.

Supporting these changes to the Canadian Passport Order are the legislative measures before you today.

These measures allow individuals to challenge passport decisions, protect information used in those proceedings, and set out the rules for both an appeal of the cancellation or a judicial review of the refusal or revocation.

In national security cases sensitive information is often required to support the cancellation or revocation of passports. During judicial proceedings protecting that sensitive information from disclosure is important to prevent adverse impacts on national security, or for the safety of the person. The government must balance the requirement to protect sensitive information with the ability to successfully uphold passport decisions taken on national security or terrorism grounds.

These proposed amendments will enable a Federal Court judge to protect sensitive information when presiding over proceedings for passport cancellation, revocation, or refusal of services for national security or terrorism purposes. The judge will be required to consider sensitive information in making the decision and to protect that information from disclosure if, in the judge's opinion, the disclosure could be injurious to national security or endanger the safety of any person. While some sensitive information may be withheld, the individual would still receive a summary of the information that was used to make the decision.

In addition, in the context of appeals and judicial review of national security passport decisions in the Federal Court, an individual may introduce information to respond to the government's case.

Overall, this approach should streamline the process and result in more timely decisions, which are in the interest of all parties.

The procedures have been designed to provide the individual with an opportunity to present their case and to be reasonably informed of the government's case. These measures are also consistent with the ability of the courts to review other ministerial decisions, such as the listing of terrorist entities and the listing of persons provided in Bill C-51 under the secure air travel act.

These safeguards strike a good balance between the right to protect Canadians against the threat of terrorism and the right of affected individuals to fair treatment.

Thank you. I am happy to take any questions the committee might have on the measures being proposed.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much.

We will now go to our first round of questioning, from the government side.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the officials and the witnesses who are here.

I listened to your comments about—and this was in your handout as well—the passport revocation being a temporary measure used until after the investigation is completed. I think this is an important thing to stress.

Could you go into a bit more detail on the process, so that it's clear that this is not just a cut-and-dried thing whereby a passport is removed and the person never has the opportunity to obtain it again, if the investigation proves that there is no reason to withhold it?

Thanks.

8:50 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

I'll try to do that and I'll look to my colleagues to support me here.

Just to be clear, the reference to temporary investigation was with respect to cancellation of passports. Cancellation is seen as to allow an investigation to continue. The person is given notice—or not, depending on the situation. The person has 30 days to apply for reconsideration of the decision. There is a reconsideration process. If on reconsideration the decision is upheld, then the person has 30 days to file an appeal with the Federal Court.

Essentially, cancellation could be a means to an end. If the investigation goes on and it is found that there are reasonable grounds not just to suspect but to believe that the person would be using the passport for terrorism purposes or purposes that could threaten national security, you could see that person's passport being revoked or refused.

Essentially, if cancellation takes you to a higher threshold, there is more evidence that can be used. There is a continuum that could end up leading to denial of passport services for up to 10 years.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Among the provisions or the measures that our government has implemented with regard to combatting terrorism, there are a number of pieces of legislation that we've passed. I was on the citizenship and immigration committee prior to being on this public safety committee. There were certainly concerns with people using passports and so on to travel overseas to engage in terrorism.

This part of the budget implementation act that has been forwarded to us from division 2 actually includes not just things related to terrorism but also some for those who may travel overseas as child sex offenders. I think that's important to note. This is something we've been very determined to stop, to protect children not just in this country but right across the world.

I think it's important but there is some opposition to this. The leader of the Liberal Party has actually come out to say that revoking someone's passport certainly doesn't align with Canadian values. I think most Canadians watching this committee or listening to it would disagree with that.

We've heard a number of witnesses, including the director of CSIS during testimony on Bill C-51 and also in his report, specifically go into detail with regard to the threat, if someone travels overseas, engages in terrorism, receives terrorist training, and then eventually returns to Canada, and the greater impact on national security and the safety of Canadians this would have on all of us.

Could you elaborate on that and on why it is so important that we need to strengthen this area to revoke, refuse, and cancel passports when in fact this type of activity is being engaged in?

8:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

I'll try.

The first thing to say is that the legislative changes contained in the budget implementation act are really around the disclosure of information and protecting sensitive information as the decisions are made. The changes to the Canadian passport order that were announced at the same time will help lower the thresholds and make it more efficient as well in revoking, refusing, or cancelling a passport.

What has happened here, similar to the case under Bill C-51, I suppose, is that the tools we have to address travel for terrorism purposes are being improved. It's just another option in the tool kit. There may be other ways to address terrorist travel, but I think the important thing with the changes we're talking about here today is that they give another option to national security agencies and law enforcement bodies to consider, which they may want to use in addressing terrorist travel.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

You touched on this briefly in your answer, but why is it important to make sure that the information surrounding these types of proceedings is not necessarily made available to the general public, especially when it relates to national security?

8:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

It's very similar to the discussion we had with the secure air travel act. There are very similar provisions in that, as well as within the changes to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act proposed in division 15.

Often the cases around passport revocation, refusal, or cancellation rely on sensitive information. This could be information provided by sources who have put their lives at risk, for example, to provide that information to intelligence or law enforcement bodies. It could have been provided by our close allies who obtained it through sensitive means and gave it to us in trust that it would not be made public. There are a lot of other reasons as well that are really important to ensure that the incentives are strong to move this kind of information, in this case, into an administrative setting to allow these kinds of decisions to be made and acted upon.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

What could be the possible outcome, if this type of information were made public?

8:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

Certainly, if it were a sensitive source, if the name of the person who has offered information, say, to a law enforcement or intelligence body were made public, obviously that person's life could be at risk. If the information coming from our allies were made public, then obviously there would be a risk that we would not get any more information from that ally.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

So it's really twofold. It's the security of the person themselves but it would also extend to their family, I would think.

8:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

For sure.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Then, the second part is obviously the ability to keep those connections to ensure that you have that source of information in the future as well.

8:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

That's right.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Garrison.

You have seven minutes, sir.

9 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. We've seen quite a lot of you this season, and I appreciate your being here again.

I want to start, since the parliamentary secretary always starts by making everything all politics all the time, by saying that we have no problem stopping those who are involved in terrorism from travelling abroad. Having agreed in principle, there may be some pieces of this legislation that we think need careful examination.

My first question involves what we're actually fixing here. You said it's simply another option. Clearly the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration already has the ability to revoke passports, so can you say a little bit more about the difference between the situation we have and this, and explain why this is another option? I have a concern that when you have two options, sometimes you have confusion about which should be used, which of these gates you go through.

9 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

The existing situation is that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration makes the decision on national security grounds. The change here is that the Minister of Public Safety will be making those decisions. Similar to the Minister of Public Safety's role in the passenger protect program, national security decisions around the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act are now going to be under the Minister of Public Safety.

9 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration retains the power...?

9 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

No, the Minister of Public Safety now assumes the power.

9 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

So this is a transfer.

9 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

John Davies

Yes, for national security reasons only. That's contained in the Canadian passport order that was made public a few weeks ago.

That's one issue.

9 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

So we have two ministers who can revoke passports—

9 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness