Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Welcome to meeting 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I would like to make a few comments for the benefits of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. To prevent disruptive audio feedback incidents during our meeting, we kindly ask that all participants keep their earpieces away from their microphones. Audio feedback incidents can seriously injure interpreters and disrupt our proceedings. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on October 23, 2023, the committee commences its study of the mandate and priorities of the Minister of Public Safety.

Appearing with us today is the Honourable Dominic Leblanc, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs.

From the Canada Border Services Agency we have Ted Gallivan, executive vice-president. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service we have David Vigneault, director. From the Correctional Service of Canada we have Anne Kelly, commissioner. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness we have Tricia Geddes, associate deputy minister. From the Parole Board of Canada we have Jennifer Oades, chairperson. Finally, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police we have Michael Duheme, commissioner.

Please note that the minister will be with us for the first hour. The remaining officials will answer questions from members for the second hour.

Welcome to all.

I now invite Minister Leblanc to make an opening statement.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Good morning, colleagues. Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee.

As your chair noted, today I am joined by the deputy heads of the Department of Public Safety, Correctional Service of Canada, Parole Board of Canada, Canada Border Services Agency, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Some of the women and men who are with me this morning are tasked with defending our borders, keeping our communities safe and protecting our country from threats posed by foreign adversaries. I was looking at the horsepower from the department here with me at the table. I hope something doesn't go wrong in the country for the next couple of hours, because the women and men who are tasked with keeping our country safe are sitting with you this morning.

Mr. Chair, today I will speak to a few priorities that highlight the substantial progress that I believe our government has made, together with parliamentarians, to keep Canada safe.

We increased maximum penalties for firearms trafficking and increased the capacity of law enforcement to investigate these crimes. We introduced into law a national freeze on the sale, purchase and transfer of handguns. We introduced new penalties targeting ghost guns and 3D gun printing, making Canada a leader in cracking down on this worrisome criminal trend. We put forward new measures to address the risks associated with firearms in intimate partner and gender-based violence situations.

We've reformed bail to make it more onerous for repeat violent offenders to be released. I think it's important to note that this was a moment when parliamentarians came together in collaboration with first ministers across the country and premiers. I had a number of conversations, for example, with Premier Ford of Ontario. I think this was a good example of our federation and our Parliament working well together.

We've expanded the security infrastructure program to provide additional funding to upgrade the safety of community gathering places. We've advanced legislation to provide expanded civilian review of the RCMP and, for the first time ever, ensure civilian review of the CBSA.

We've invested in the RCMP to increase their investigative capacity and to ensure better co-operation with communities that are most at risk of being targeted by harassment and intimidated by foreign actors. I'm hopeful we can continue to make investments in these important public safety institutions as well.

We've put forward, as you know, Mr. Chair, cybersecurity legislation, which this committee has been working on, to strengthen the resiliency and coordination of our Canada's critical infrastructure.

We have consulted Canadians on changes to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act to ensure that Canada's national security agencies are empowered to share threat information with more Canadian partners than just the federal government and that CSIS has up-to-date powers to adequately protect Canadians and Canadian institutions in a digital world. I hope to have the opportunity to work with parliamentarians on this soon, of course.

The federal government recently convened a meeting with industry, law enforcement, and the provinces and territories to strengthen our collaboration in fighting the alarming rise in auto theft.

To complement the efforts of our national security and law enforcement agencies, we also continue to make investments that help counter violent extremism and address harms such as hate and gender-based violence.

Mr. Chair and colleagues, there is much more to do to ensure the safety of Canadians and their communities. This is a constant effort, and the women and men who join me this morning, as I said in my opening comments, are at the front line of doing this important work, with thousands of other women and men who work with them every day.

I look forward to continuing to work, I hope, in a collaborative way with this committee, and I look forward to your continued advice and engagement as you work with all of these people to keep our borders, our communities and our institutions safe and secure.

With that, Mr. Chair, you can't imagine how excited I am to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Minister. We're going to move right into questioning.

Mr. Shipley, you're up first for six minutes, please.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Minister, and hopefully that excitement continues for the next hour.

Thank you, Chair, and to all the witnesses and the minister for being here this morning.

Minister, I'll start off with you, please. Canadians and victims of crime are outraged that you and your government, without consultation with victims' families, have allowed the likes of Paul Bernardo, Luka Magnotta, Michael Rafferty and Russell Williams, some of the worst offenders in Canadian history, to live out their days comfortably in medium-security prisons. Why are you and your government putting the rights of violent, heinous offenders ahead of the rights of victims?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Obviously, the concerns of victims and the rights of victims are at the centre of every action our government would take in this most difficult space. There are approximately 13,500 people serving time in federal penitentiaries. My colleagues will know very well that the decision around the transfers of individual inmates is made by independent professional public servants on a series of criteria, the most important of which, of course, is community safety. The Correctional Service always works with identified victims in these circumstances, and I have faith that it will make the right decisions, including, obviously, to keep communities safe when these transfers happen.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Minister, with all due respect, your government sets the policies and directives that allow for violent offenders to be downgraded from maximum-security prisons. The Canadian corrections system is your responsibility, and you must take responsibility for this failure and answer to Canadians. Do you have anything to add to that?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As I said, the transfer of inmates from, for example, maximum-security to medium-security institutions is something that has gone on for a long time. I think it's instructive to note that the highest number of these transfers occurred in 2012-13, when 291 inmates were transferred, and in 2013-14, when 319 of these offenders were transferred. This is not new that the Correctional Service, in its professional judgment, applying criteria, the most important of which of course is community safety, makes these decisions. I think it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that this is something new or to pretend that an elected minister should be the one deciding where individual inmates serve their sentences in the federal system.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I believe the past is the past, and we're here to make new legislation and move forward.

People are concerned nowadays. This is a very serious issue, Minister. A member on your side is laughing over this issue. Canadians are upset.

Minister, we know that the costly carbon tax is negatively impacting the budgets of police services, particularly due to the increased costs of heating and fuelling policing facilities, detachments and vehicle fleets. Millions of taxpayer dollars a year are being spent on the carbon tax instead of stopping crime. Will you send a clear message of support to our hard-working police officers across the country and spike the hike on April 1?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It may come as a surprise to you, but I support our government's carbon pricing regime. I think it puts more money into the pockets of eight out of 10 Canadians, as we know well. My colleague uses the line “spike the hike”. We'll hear it probably later today in question period a number of times, I would expect, so it's good to start the day with that phrase very early in the morning. However, I think Canadians expect, including people who work for police services.... You somehow made the bridge from budgets of police officers to climate change to carbon pricing. I would assume that the men and women who serve in national security and police organizations across the country are also concerned about climate change. In many cases, these people are on the front lines of some of the most dangerous events caused by climate change, so I have every confidence they understand that the government is pursuing an appropriate course of action.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll give my last bit of time to MP Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

The OPP commissioner, the deputy chief of Peel Regional Police, the deputy chief of the Toronto police and the chief in Laval have come to this committee and told us that the lack of meaningful penalties for auto thefts and the revolving door of quick releases on bail have made the auto theft crisis even worse. Specifically, Deputy Chief Johnson of Toronto noted that almost 50% of all offenders that they apprehend for auto thefts are repeat offenders.

Minister, will you acknowledge that your government's bail policies are directly contributing to the auto theft crisis in this country, and will your government implement stiffer penalties on repeat violent offenders?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That is an important question. We certainly share the concerns of all the people on this committee and Canadians around the alarming increase in auto theft and the increasingly violent circumstances surrounding this crime.

I have spoken to many of the senior police officials that my colleague mentioned. My colleague, the Minister of Justice, who would be responsible for changes to the Criminal Code or bail legislation, for example, is in a better position than I am to speak to specific legislative measures. I think the Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice and I have all acknowledged that the public is understandably concerned about some of these repeat offenders who, in the context of an increasingly violent crime, would be released after multiple convictions in this space. Obviously, we are interested in looking at all appropriate measures and working with the women and men you identified who are on the front line of this important work. I'll continue to be very involved in this issue to look for further investments.

Mr. Chair, when I have to leave later this morning, I think my colleagues from the RCMP and the CBSA will have some good news to share with the committee in terms of our increased efforts, recognizing that we can and must continue to do more at all moments in this important issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Schiefke, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome to you, Minister.

On behalf of all my constituents in Vaudreuil—Soulanges, I want to thank this incredible lineup of people who come to work every day in service of our country to help keep us safe.

Minister, something that I've been preoccupied with, and I think a lot of Canadians share this preoccupation, is the attacks on our democratic institutions, particularly by Russia and China. This week, you introduced legislation updating the Canada Elections Act. I understand that the bill falls under your portfolio and you've done some diligent work on this.

Can you tell us how the changes proposed in the Elections Act will help further safeguard our democracy against threats of foreign interference?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Is Rigaud in your constituency?

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It is indeed.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You mentioned your constituency, and I know the Canada Border Services Agency has a very important facility there. Next Thursday, I'm hoping to be at a graduation ceremony with the women and men at the Canada Border Services Agency, so hopefully we'll have a chance to spend some time there if you haven't already gone to Florida the Thursday before Easter. I'll be at work in your riding, Mr. Schiefke, so it would be great if you could join me.

You mentioned the Canada Elections Act. Yes, we worked collaboratively with our colleagues, particularly in the New Democratic Party. The Prime Minister and Mr. Singh made a commitment in this regard to make voting more accessible to Canadians through things like campus voting, making mail-in ballots more accessible and adjusting the requirement around officially being a nominated candidate. That was a commitment that Mr. Singh and the Prime Minister made to Canadians. We have lived up to that commitment, we think, with the legislation introduced yesterday.

We also took advantage of the opportunity, while the Elections Act was before Parliament, to work with Elections Canada, for example, to benefit from the advice of colleagues like Mr. Vigneault, who will join us this morning for the second part of this meeting. Perhaps he could talk about some of the risks to democratic institutions posed by the foreign state and non-state actors that you mentioned. You mentioned two countries, but sadly they are not alone in acting in this space in a way that we think is not helpful to our democratic institutions.

The amendments that are before you deal with things like artificial intelligence. It was already illegal in the Canada Elections Act to impersonate a candidate in writing, in regular print media or in a television ad, or to try to disrupt the electoral process, but technology has allowed many, particularly Russian, interventions to potentially threaten, for example, the ability to conduct an election or influence the outcome. However, they're not alone.

All of this was governed by the advice of our security agencies and Elections Canada. The Chief Electoral Officer had made a number of thoughtful suggestions, so we tried to incorporate those into the legislation that was tabled yesterday, and of course we would welcome parliamentarians, at the appropriate moment, to suggest ways to further strengthen this legislation.

It certainly is a priority for us and we'll continue to do everything we can in this space, recognizing that the nature of the threat evolves and, therefore, so too should the legislative instruments in the hands of Elections Canada, as an independent agency, to enforce these rules.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Minister, and you're right; we proudly host the CBSA training facility in my community. All of the border security officers as well as the detector dogs are trained in my riding. We're very proud of that, and we look forward to potentially hosting you next week.

Minister, the national summit on combatting auto theft was held about a month and a half ago. What progress has been made since the summit?

As I've mentioned a few times here in committee, a number of my neighbours in Vaudreuil—Soulanges have had their cars stolen, unfortunately. That's why we want to know what progress has been made.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's a very important question.

We touched on that in response to Mr. Motz's question. Commissioner Duheme can certainly give you some encouraging details about what the RCMP has done in recent weeks and is continuing to do.

I'll ask Mr. Duheme to give you those details.

[Commr Michael Duheme, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, as you've seen in the news, auto theft is really concentrated in the Montreal and Toronto areas. CPIC, the Canadian Police Information Centre, records data on automobiles, stolen property and licence plate numbers. It's a system that police across the country use on average 300,000 times a day, I think.

The RCMP has managed to connect the CPIC database to that of Interpol. The Interpol organization is made up of 196 countries. So, now 196 countries have access to the databases, and over 150,000 vehicles are registered in the CPIC portal.

We have seen results. Since we connected the CPIC portal to Interpol in mid-February, over 840 serial number checks have been carried out by our partners abroad. This creates an alert at the Interpol office in Ottawa. From there, foreign investigators request additional information. I think we've received between 50 and 100 requests so far.

The RCMP wants to start analyzing the breakdown or distribution of vehicles internationally.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

This is good news for insurance companies, car dealers, and above all for Canadians.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.

Go ahead, Ms. Michaud, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Minister, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. We're extremely grateful.

Minister, I want to come back to your record, your government's record on gun control. It's true that work has been done through Bill C‑21, but there's still a lot left to do. Your government announced a program to buy back prohibited weapons. That was a few years ago. An amnesty was announced in 2021. It was then extended until 2023, and now it's been extended again until October 30, 2025.

If I'm not mistaken, October 30, 2025, will be after the next election. I'm not a pollster, but all the indications right now are that if there were an election, a Conservative government would take power. We all know where the Conservatives stand on gun control. So there would be no control. Doesn't it scare you to push back this buyback program even further, to 2025?

In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer had budgeted this in 2021 at some $750 million. The supplementary estimates (C) refer to a first phase of $12.5 million. We're quite far off the mark.

What are you going to do about this, Minister?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, I thank Ms. Michaud for her question. It will come as no surprise if I say that I share her concern about the Conservative Party's policies on gun control.

I very much appreciated the work we did in collaboration with Ms. Michaud and her Bloc Québécois colleagues, as well as our NDP colleagues, to strengthen these measures in Bill C‑21, and I hope we can continue to work together on regulations. I look forward to doing this work with Ms. Michaud and with other colleagues who share our concerns.

Ms. Michaud is absolutely right. I don't think we can wait for next year as far as the buyback program is concerned. I hope to have details very soon about a first phase in which, for example, we would buy back the prohibited weapons that are in Cabela's stores as well as in other stores that were legally selling these weapons. They need to be recovered and destroyed.

The RCMP has already taken steps to be ready to do that, and I'm quite sure we won't need to extend the amnesty. I understand that there would be a difficulty in doing this again, and I think I'm very close to finalizing the second phase, which will be to buy back from Canadians these weapons that are now illegal, while recognizing the need to do it in an orderly fashion.

I understand and share your concern. I am confident that we will be able to meet these deadlines, and I will be happy to keep the committee and our colleagues informed of the progress we make. I think we're just about ready to get started.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

You talked about regulations and you hope that we'll continue to work together, and I'm pleased to hear that. However, you don't need the opposition parties to put regulations in place. You've promised some for high-capacity long-gun magazines. I imagine that will happen soon.

Also, you want to reinstate the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee, or your predecessor wanted to do so. Bill C‑21 is fine, of course, but it's not great. It refers to future weapons, i.e., weapons that don't yet exist. Yet many weapons on the market are not yet banned by Bill C-21. Your predecessor, Mr. Mendicino, said he was going to re-establish this committee to make recommendations, so that measures could be implemented. When we spoke about this, you had just taken office. Now you've been there for quite some time.

How is the re-establishment of this committee coming along?