Evidence of meeting #98 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Simon Larouche

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thanks, Chair.

I think it's time to get to a vote.

I will not be supporting this amendment, as it silences victims and guts meetings when Canadians are demanding answers about this. To silence victims and reduce the ability of parliamentarians—us around this table—to get answers is certainly tragic at best, and at worst is unparliamentary.

I will end my comments there. I urge all members to vote against the amendment. We can then vote in favour of this study to start the process of getting answers for Canadians and for victims. Then we can start to bring at least an iota of trust back to a justice system that certainly doesn't seem like it has a whole lot of justice right now.

Let's get to a vote.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

We have no one else on the speaking list. I will call for a vote on the amendment to the motion as amended.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The amendment is approved. Now we'll go back to the original speaking order.

Mr. Motz, you're up, please.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

I can't express my disappointment sufficiently virtually, or even in person, to comprehend the impact, the repercussions, of the vote on this amendment.

We have heard that the government should never interfere in matters of corrections. They can't. However, subsection 6(1) of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act does give the minister the power to issue directives to the Correctional Services commissioner. Paragraphs 96(b) and 96(z.6) also allow the Governor in Council to make open-ended regulations on inmate classification and prison assignment.

We heard in the last study on Bernardo, and we've heard anecdotally today, that the Liberals dispute their ability to issue directives or make regulations for individual inmates. The Minister of Public Safety can and regularly does issue directives dealing with larger classes of inmates. For example, in 2022, then minister Mendicino issued new direction on the use of dry cells to keep inmates from bringing contraband into federal prisons. In 2018, then minister Goodale issued a directive restricting what kind of inmates could be sent to indigenous healing lodges.

We know that nothing would prevent the minister from issuing a directive or cabinet from adopting an order in council mandating that all offenders designated dangerous offenders—the worst of the worst, as said before, like Bernardo, Magnotta and others designated as such—serve their life sentences, with the types of crimes they've committed, in maximum security prisons.

One thing people have been asking me is, how is it possible that this sort of thing keeps happening? How do inmates get moved and why are they being moved, with the worst of the worst being moved at the rate they're being moved at now, especially these high-profile types of offenders? In 2019, the Liberals introduced Bill C-83. It was voted on and passed in 2019 and created a standard, in section 28 of the act, requiring prison selection to be made by the commissioner based on “the least restrictive environment for that person”. This repealed previous Conservative legislation from 2012, the Safe Streets and Communities Act.

We heard it suggested in the last study that Conservatives supported Bill C-83. Yes, we supported Bill C-83 at second reading to go to committee for amendments. We did not support it at third reading.

I think it's unfortunate that we have now gone from potentially six additional meetings to one meeting. We'll never get this resolved in one meeting, and we're going to leave victims hanging out to dry, so to speak, to continue on with the trauma they face every time a transfer occurs that has the victim impact we see with these dangerous offenders.

As legislators, as members of this committee, I feel strongly that it behooves us to serve our constituents well, and I don't believe this amendment will do that. Unfortunately, the original motion and the first amendment brought by my colleague Ms. O'Connell did serve that purpose, but they have been changed. Again, I'm at a loss to know how victims will be served in this way. We can't get to the bottom of what we're doing based on this.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, we only have a few minutes left. Despite the fact that I regret the amendment passed, I believe we have to vote on the main motion.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Are we in agreement with that?

12:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Mr. Julian, we're going to continue with the speakers list.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the normal hour of adjournment is in two minutes. Those of us in our ridings have other events and other commitments.

I don't give consent to continue this meeting beyond the normal adjournment time.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mr. Motz, you completed your time, so we'll move to Ms. O'Connell.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's important to note, as it's been said already, that we support continuing this study, which is exactly why we moved forward—

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just want to put on the record that we have extra resources to go longer.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Yes, we have extra resources.

Ms. O'Connell, do you want to continue?

March 11th, 2024 / 12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Chair.

As I was saying, we have been supportive of this study. We participated in—well, this would be a continuation—the initial study that was brought forward. We put forward witnesses and we engaged in it.

Comments have been made in our work, based on what we heard in testimony, that we want to move forward with recommendations and continue based on some of the information we heard. Unfortunately, as was very clear from some of the outbursts by our Conservative colleagues, they're not actually interested in justice or safety. They were outraged, asking, “Who cares what happened when the Conservatives were in power?”

It's pretty interesting, because if they are going to sell a narrative to the public about how tough on crime they are and how only Conservatives will deliver on policies that will support victims, I think we as a committee have every right to look at their record. When we look at their record, what we see is more instances of reclassification from maximum to medium.

They can try to explain that away all they want, but that's the reality. They cut services to Correctional Services facilities. Mr. Caputo wants to suggest that he's standing up for victims over a skating rink, but he had quite the media spanking over the weekend over the misinformation he has been putting out. It's really harmful and traumatizing for victims and their families to read a political agenda that just simply isn't true.

What is true is that the very skating rink he's outraged about was actually in operation under the Conservatives. Mr. Schiefke pointed out the political theatre. The political theatre is in the fact that Conservatives are willing to say anything, even if it's not true, for the outrage and upset it might cause.

What they don't want to talk about—which is why they interjected so much—is that there was no outrage about a skating rink at this facility when they were in power, a skating rink that was operational when they were in power. They don't want Canadians to see the hypocrisy they're living under.

We started this committee meeting by trying to have a very reasonable and rational conversation about how we move forward and continue this study, which is something we're supportive of doing, and how we can give Canadians the opportunity to hear about the process. Mr. Motz just read into the record that the minister does have the ability to change these classifications, but if you heard his words, he read in that the minister has authority to change directives around groups of populations, not reclassifications. His own words don't match or make sense with what Conservatives are arguing.

This is why we're supportive. Let's bring back Correctional Services Canada, which at committee testified that the minister cannot step in, just as Stephen Harper did not step in, and change the over 300 reclassifications from maximum to medium. I think we're happy to have that conversation again because Conservatives don't want to be confused by the truth.

We're happy to continue to put that information on the record, because they would rather say things that are deeply emotional and deeply personal, especially for victims. They're not letting those victims know about their record, while they purport to say they would do things differently when in fact we know they wouldn't. They're willing to say anything. They're willing to say anything for power. I think that's deeply sad given the topic.

Mr. Chair, given that we seem to be in a filibuster with the Conservatives now just reading into the record nothing, I'm going to move a motion to adjourn.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

We have a motion to adjourn.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

We would like to get to a vote on this motion—not the motion to adjourn but the motion at hand. I understand that there's a motion to adjourn, and we'll be supportive of it.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm willing to withdraw that motion if the Conservatives have no more speakers on the list and we can vote on the main motion.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

That's guaranteed.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Okay. We're going to move to a vote on the motion.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

I withdraw my adjournment motion if we're voting on the main motion, but if there are speakers on the list, then my adjournment motion would stand.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

There are no speakers.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just clarifying that it's on the main motion as amended.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Yes, it's on the main motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm moving a motion to adjourn.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

The meeting is adjourned.