Evidence of meeting #23 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meetings.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominic Monchamp  Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service
Shauna Paull  Member, Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women Canada

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'll call meeting number 23 of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to order.

Welcome, Mr. Epp and Mr. Godfrey. It's always nice to have some of our male counterparts join us.

Before you, as committee business, you should have the agenda. There are a couple of things before we hear from our witnesses.

We have a list of suggested witnesses, but we did not have time, because some of these were not received until this morning, to get them translated. I'd like to suggest, if everybody is in agreement, that we distribute this list of suggested witnesses for the meeting in relation to Ms. Stronach's motion. The committee could look over the list, and we could go on to committee business at 12:30, so we would have sufficient time to decide whom we want to come, the number of meetings we need to have, the format, and the possible days. We'll be thinking about that. I apologize that it's only in English, but we're moving quickly and didn't have time.

There's also a book here that was referred to the other day in connection with some of our witnesses. Ms. Mourani asked for a copy. It is also only in English. Can we have permission to distribute it only in English to the committee members?

Do you have a question, Ms. Davidson?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Are we supposed to have that list of witnesses, or is it coming?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We'll distribute it now. I'm getting permission to be able to do that.

If there are any other witnesses whose names you haven't had a chance to submit, you can read them into the record later on when we deal with it. We'll be able to handle it that way.

Go ahead, Ms. Mourani.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If possible, I would also like to know what were the results of the big conference dealing with human trafficking that took place last week in Sydney, Nova Scotia. I don't know if it was a symposium, a conference or a meeting involving various partners, but it would be a good idea to get the results of this event, in both languages if possible.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

All right. That's fine. We'll do what we can.

Go ahead, Ms. Smith.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Madam Chair, could I speak to that? That was a symposium on November 7 in Sydney, Nova Scotia, on human trafficking. I was supposed to be one of the keynote speakers, but I couldn't get permission from the whip to go. I'm going to be getting all the synopses of the presentations there. I would be very happy to pass that on to the clerk to have it distributed to all members of the committee.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Now we will go to our witnesses.

You have our apologies for being late this morning.

From the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women Canada we have Ms. Shauna Paull, and from the Montreal City Police Services we have Dominic Monchamp, sergeant detective, supervisor of investigations module.

Welcome. We appreciate your taking the time from your own busy schedules to join.

Mr. Monchamp, would you like to go first? Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Dominic Monchamp Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

First of all, I would like to thank you for the invitation. I am truly pleased to be here with you. It is a great pleasure to speak to you today. I will begin by giving you a brief explanation of what my work is about and how I got there.

Since 1999, I have worked on the vice squad of the City of Montreal Police Service. In the beginning, I dealt with adult prostitution and afterwards, in 2002, a special squad on the sexual exploitation of children was created. I was an investigator with them until 2005. In 2005, I was promoted to the rank of detective sergeant and I became the supervisor of investigations within this section which deals exclusively with investigations on the sexual exploitation of children, whether it is an issue of child pornography, of pimping or of juvenile prostitution. This is my area of experience.

I would like to paint a picture of the situation in Montreal. In light of my experience, I have also been declared an expert witness in matters of sexual exploitation for the Province of Quebec. I am therefore in a position to give you quite an extensive briefing on what is happening in the sex industry in the Province of Quebec.

If I compare the current situation with what it was in 1999, when I began my work as an investigator, I must state that the sex industry has grown in Montreal and in the suburbs. There are several obvious reasons for this. The resources allocated to the fight against sexual exploitation of women and children are minimal, as compared to the money invested in fighting narcotics. This is seen particularly in the proliferation of escort agencies, massage parlours and strip clubs on the Island of Montreal.

On the Island of Montreal, there are 28 strip clubs. Within the scope of our investigations on the exploitation of children — I am not talking about adults —, our investigations took us to more than 100 strip clubs in the province. For the average person, a strip club is not necessarily synonymous with prostitution, but according to the most recent court decisions, lap dances and $10 dances are still considered as active prostitution. That shows the extent of the phenomenon and the great availability, for the exploiters, of young girls and adult females.

Moreover, the Russian and Asian massage parlours are growing in number. There is a great demand for this among clients and it has become common place within society, there has been a certain acceptance. I fail to understand why it is common place and tolerated, which is the right word.

That is a brief overview of the situation in Montreal. I would like to give you some statistics. For the West Island, we currently have received about 50 complaints dealing only with massage parlours. For the Island of Montreal, I receive one complaint a day on juvenile pimping and on the production, distribution or possession of child pornography. That is the situation as far as children are concerned.

For adults, the situation is just as serious in my opinion, but it is much more widely accepted. There is consensus on the fact that it is unacceptable for children to be exploited, and certain resources, as a result, are allocated to that. As far as adults are concerned, the consensus is far less clear.

I would like to list some of the issues with which we are faced in our fight against this phenomenon. I told you that I was very happy to be here today and to be able to speak to you. That is mostly because I have to fight to justify my work in this domain on a daily basis. I have no problem as far as my work for children is concerned: everyone agrees it is unacceptable. But as soon as a young girl turns 18, 19 or 20, I have to fight to have it recognized that what she is experiencing is unacceptable and that she is a victim. I am always told that she is consenting, that she is there of her own free will, that we live in a free society and that if she has chosen to do this, we must let her be. This logic may seem acceptable, so long as we do not dig a little deeper.

Over the many years of my career, I have met with many victims and with many people who use their services, and the issue of consent is the biggest irritant when we carry out our investigations. Are people who are disadvantaged, whether psychologically or financially, truly giving their consent? Do they really have a choice, when they have been shown the way, particularly within a certain culture?

Nowadays, the hip hop culture and its videos create problems for us, because they improve the image of pimps and exploiters. There is a positive marginalization of these individuals, and our young people are attracted by that. They are in effect willing and consensual.

However, once they realize what they have gotten themselves into, they are emotionally destroyed, sometimes even physically. It is difficult, at that point, to back out and to admit to themselves that they have fallen into a trap and to accept that they voluntarily got into that situation. This is what we see every day.

Despite that, it is easy to see that this consent is tainted. That is what makes it most difficult for us, and it comes from all quarters including the police. There is a lack of education and a lack of understanding among my colleagues and among many of the people working within the justice system. This lack of understanding is one of our greatest enemies. It prevents us from obtaining sufficient funding and support.

When we talk about child prostitution, as I have said, there is a consensus. Even with that, I do not have half, one third or even one quarter of the staff assigned to fight narcotics, and this is true even though there is a consensus and that everyone recognizes it is unacceptable. No need to tell you that as far as adult exploitation is concerned, I have no staff. Not only do I not have any staff, but currently in Montreal, the Crown has no staff, and cases involving bawdy houses are not being dealt with. In my opinion this is very serious. It shows a lack of understanding with the impact that can have. In fact, if we want adult female trafficking cases to be dealt with, we have to be able to connect them to organized crime, to international trafficking, to street gangs or to major organized crime, before the investigation has even begun.

I have been working on this kind of investigations for seven years. When we launch an investigation, for example on Asian or Russian massage parlours — which are bawdy houses —, an investigation must be carried out to show that organized crime is involved, because the words “Russian organized crime” are not posted on the door. We are caught in a vicious circle, which renders us ineffective. If we do not act, there is no information, and if there is no information, there is no problem, and if there is no problem, no staff is assigned to it, and no one sees what is going on, and the women caught in this vicious circle remain isolated.

When we manage to investigate these cases, there are fewer problems in the case of children. In fact, we work very closely with youth centres and youth protection services. There is a whole system already in place.

This system also exists for adults, but it is very finicky. There are shelters for women who are drug addicts, who have been beaten or abused. A woman who is dealing with a pimp who is taking all her money, who has turned her into a drug addict and who beats her, has no access to these centres. I have a recent example I will tell you about.

It is the case of a young woman who had just turned 18. She is Aboriginal, and from the ages of 2 to 4, was locked in a dog crate and was sexually abused by her parents. At the age of 4, she was taken in by social services and given over to the care of a psychotherapist who treated her from the age of 4 to 18. From the age of 4 to 5, she walked on all fours and barked. Her treatments, which lasted until she turned 18, resulted in her having a personality and a psychological condition that are relatively normal. Unfortunately, when she turned 18, those services were taken away and she was left on the street, without any support. She was immediately taken in by a pimp who saw her psychological weakness — that is their specialty — and he exploited it. He turned her into a drug addict, he offered her crack and exploited her sexually.

When we took her in, her psychotherapist, who feels very maternal towards her, helped us. When we carried out an investigation, we discovered that the people involved were part of Russian organized crime and that they were extremely violent. They hung her out from the 12th floor to make her accept her first client, because she was refusing.

When we wound up the investigation, she had no resources, no family and no shelter. We did some research, we approached all of the women's protection centres, and no one would agree to take her in, because of her drug addiction and because of the danger she was in because of the people she had been with. We wanted to place her in a detox centre, but it was very difficult because once again, the risk was high.

There is no safe refuge for these adult victims. They are simply asked to move, they are the victims, and they are asked to move.

I could go on about this for hours, but I know that my time is limited. However, I can tell you that the needs are blatant. We must stop believing that there is consent. Besides, the recently passed legislation for the protection of children has taken this perspective, and it is no longer discussed as far as the exploitation of children is concerned. Consent is no longer a defence, which greatly assists us in our work.

In my opinion, we should not make any distinction between adults and children. They should be handled the same way.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much for sharing those cases with us. We had expected to hear some pretty forceful comments from you. Thank you for what you do for all of us in Canada.

Ms. Paull, I'll turn it over to you now, and then we'll go with rounds of questions following your presentation.

11:35 a.m.

Shauna Paull Member, Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women Canada

I am from the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, the Canadian branch, which is an arm of a global secretariat that has been at work on issues of trafficking in women for about 16 years. In Canada, we started in about 1996.

Our work has almost exclusively been associated with transnational migration. I want to preface my comments by saying that although we are aware of trafficking within Canada, that's not the group of women I'm specifically working with or commenting on.

I have had the opportunity of working with several aboriginal women, and I really appreciate your comments, Dominic. I have heard similar stories.

I want to contextualize trafficking in my comments today in the context of global migration. I think one of the barriers to our taking action is that we feel overwhelmed by the threat of huge numbers of people who are migrating, which continues to be seen as a threat. If we can try to normalize that, then we can engage in some community-based, solution-based innovations, rather than this sort of binary response we have around either prosecution or victimization.

According to the IOM, there are about 190 million migrants crossing borders in the world today. These include rural-to-urban migrations within countries and those from the global south to the global north. Women migrate for a number of reasons, including global economic disparities, displacement and dispossession of marginalized populations, increased access to travel, armed conflict, disasters, the awareness or hope of better options elsewhere, and of course the very basic human desire to explore the world.

In this particular historical moment, in which states are responding to the challenges of increased global migration and other associated pressures with tightening of immigration controls, increased border security, and increased use of detention and deportation, it helps us to understand global migration as an ongoing historical reality to see migration as an always present aspect of human evolution and history.

Although the discussion around trafficking in women, especially as the conversation attempts to address sexual exploitation, often becomes panic-laden or morally outraged, in seeking to respond in sustainable and substantive ways to the needs of migrant and trafficked women, it's been helpful in our work to consider a women's equality framework that acknowledges the trafficked woman as the expert in the issues affecting her migration and the exploitation she has experienced. It has been helpful to us to create communities of advocacy in the context of service provision—to have those two things linked—so that as a trafficked woman comes to identify her experience, she can access legal, social, and economic supports that are meaningful to her.

It's been important to reflect on the paradigms of victimization that so often inform law enforcement responses so as to accompany women as partners in action for empowerment and to dissolve, in ways that are possible, the rendering of the trafficked woman as “other”.

Sexual exploitation, we know, exists in so many areas in our world. It happens in workplaces, it happens at universities, it happens everywhere we go. We need to be careful about using the trafficked woman as an emblem of sexual exploitation, instead of acknowledging it as the pervasive problem that it is.

We have found that regardless of whether a woman is able to remain in Canada or returns to her former country of residence, to a community experience within which her irregular migration is understood in the context of huge numbers in migration, the exploitation and abuse that may also have been part of that migration can be transformed somewhat.

Obviously we have root causes for these things. Our globalized economy is inextricably linked with irregular migration and trafficking. Global patterns of economics and trade have increased demands for low-wage labour, as well as the demand of poor countries for remittances from out-migration labourers in the global north that assist economies in the global south.

In fact, remittances have exceeded direct foreign investment for the first time, reaching almost $80 billion in 2002. Remedies for this are very few. In areas of market management, international migration, or labour laws, these remain inadequate to protect migrant women and ensure respect for their mobility rights and other human rights.

All those states, including Canada, are responding to human trafficking with an array of new laws and policies. These are rooted in an enforcement framework that privileges border and national securities, conservative sexual morality, and prosecution of the trafficker.

Although discussions in Canada have included notions of protection for the victims of human trafficking--and we're really happy to see that--very few protections are in place. I think the notion of protecting victims is also somewhat problematic. The question of protection of trafficked persons is certainly welcomed, but at the moment, deep consideration must be given to other associated questions. What does protection entail? Who decides what constitutes protection? Will the enforcement community decide? Will NGOs decide? Will trafficked persons themselves decide? How much space is there for trafficked persons' voices in setting the agenda and determining what protection means for them and their futures? Why is it that protection and the prosecution of the trafficker are so often coupled? Is it possible to delink protection from prosecution in the name of truly humanizing this experience?

To date, laws to address human trafficking in Canada remain largely unresponsive to the protection of the human rights of trafficked persons. The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act contains within it measures for more vigilant border surveillance, penalties for punishing smugglers and traffickers, and enhanced powers of detention and deportation. Within the act, in paragraph 245(f), for example, immigration officers are directed to detain those who may be involved with traffickers. This implicit contradiction between values of protection and what appears to be a direction toward protective detention reveals the privileging of prosecution over protection of trafficked persons.

In May 2006, without much consultation with NGOs, the government announced a new temporary resident permit for trafficked persons. The document itself is flawed by inconsistencies, and its terms and conditions are not responsive to the needs of a victim of trafficking. For example, although there are provisions for interim federal health and counselling, no other social supports are accessible. The 120-day reflection period is not linked to an access to work permit or any other form of social support, including provincial income assistance, which remains to be negotiated.

The TRP also involves an immediate consultation between enforcement communities, and although cooperation with the prosecution of the trafficker is not required under the new TRP, in practice we've seen that women who have made applications were scrutinized and interrogated for hours.

Since May, when the TRP was put in, we've had two applications that I'm aware of and four others that apparently have been abandoned, although I'm not sure why. There was one that was successful and one that was not successful. The experience of the woman whose application was not successful seemed to reflect a kind of need for increased training and awareness amongst the enforcement community, in the way Dominic was speaking to earlier. In particular, the Border Services Agency and Citizenship and Immigration Canada both had lengthy interviews with this woman, and there was interrogation of her culpability throughout. In other words she was asked, in the same way that victims of domestic violence used to be asked, “If you knew something was wrong, why did you not leave?”

So the trafficked person is at risk for being the site of statistical analysis, and in response, as Dominic mentioned, what social services are in place for her? Hardly anything. Most of what she receives is supplied by volunteer NGOs, and at this point she's still very much unable to access services from the state.

I think the TRP did include some nuanced language. That is important, and it is one step in understanding the complexities of the experience of migration. However, it doesn't go far enough.

In summary, our work continues in the form of ongoing advocacy and direct service provision for trafficked women, as well as ongoing dialogue and lobbying of government for full legislative protection of trafficked persons. We've also been doing lots of public education. We've found that to be a key element in trying to settle the long-term debates and discussions around what human trafficking is and what sexual exploitation is. Through that, we're trying to create communities of understanding, where the binary around what the needs are can be deepened, so there's a community response that actually honours human rights obligations and the human rights of that person and her participation as an agent in the solution-making.

Thank you.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We'll go to questions and answers for seven minutes, starting with Ms. Minna.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to both of you for your presentations.

Mr. Monchamp, your presentation was quite enlightening but also very disturbing because of some of the things you said. Some of us probably knew or suspected them, but it was quite disturbing to hear about them.

You're right that the issue of consent is a major one, because even in court they'll say she consented, and if you charge the pimp, you charge the user. One of the things we have heard at this committee is that we should charge the user, not just the pimp or the trafficker--criminalize the customer as well. Do you agree with that?

Second, do you have a suggestion as to how we might work around the issue of consent, how we might legislate or put up a framework of some kind that would address the issue of consent and take away that tool from the user and the trafficker?

11:45 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

First of all, I believe it is important to criminalize the clients, the users and the pimps who live off these women. To me this is obvious.

It must also be pointed out that in certain cases, there is a criminalization of the victims. Let us talk about the bawdy houses or the massage parlours that are currently proliferating. Prostitution is not illegal in Canada, but everything that surrounds it is. People who have just arrived, new immigrants, primarily find themselves in bawdy houses and massage parlours; in such cases they are criminalized. This casts a shadow and imposes a false belief on these women who find themselves in the world of prostitution in general — not only in the massage parlours —, the belief that prostitution is criminal. The pimps use this ignorance like swords over their heads to keep them under their control.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I should have explained that my position and that of some of our colleagues is that we do not criminalize the victim. That would be totally wrong. When I say “criminalize”, I simply mean the user, not the victim. We need to ensure that victims are not considered to be criminals or criminalized, that they are considered to be victims. We should provide the kinds of supports they require, including those who are illegal with immigration.

I personally think 120 days is not enough--possibly work permits to give them more stability so they're not afraid to come forward. I feel really strongly about that side of it, and I think some of us agree with that.

You've already said that you agree with the criminalization of the user, which is fair. Now perhaps you can help me a little on the word “consent”. How can we get around that?

11:50 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

As far as the issue of consent is concerned, it is relatively simple. As for the procuring of children, the way to proceed already exists. Currently, the way to go about gathering evidence is essentially to corroborate the victim's version. In certain cases, we are in a position to obtain one version. We often use videotaped interviews. In a case of children or adolescents, there is sometimes a change of attitude because they are psychologically fragile, and the video testimony becomes important. In certain cases, we have no video, but despite everything, we have complaints relating to individuals who exploit these children and we can still charge them.

It is therefore an issue of corroborative investigations, that is to say that we use investigative techniques that confirm what we had at the outset. For example, we use shadowing, double agents or wiretap. These techniques are already used as far as pimps working child prostitute are concerned. They could also apply very well to pimps working adult prostitutes. We would use the same techniques and the same kind of charges. Furthermore, in several cases, we are talking about the same people. These people do not draw a line at the age of 18. In many cases, they have been controlling a young girl from the age of 14 to 16, and she is now 21, 22 or 23. These are exactly the same techniques and that is how, currently, we are able to get around the pretence of consent.

On the other hand, I must say that these investigations are extremely cumbersome and complex. They do not just last a few weeks, particularly in a case where we do have no testimony from the victim. I believe that the law should protect the victims of these pimps or users—I am not sure what to call them—who create dozens of victims within their lifetime. I draw a parallel with pedophilia. A pedophile will destroy several lives over the course of his life. These pimps view women like merchandise. It is an issue of cashing them out, and when the merchandise is passed its due date, they throw them out and get another.

It is therefore very important to act. If I understand correctly, you agree with me, even when we do not have testimony. That is what is difficult presently. As far as adults are concerned, we are not able to act if we do not have the consent or the testimony of a woman. Her pimp will continue to victimize others. Because he uses his threat and violence, women will be terrorized and will never file complaints.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

You're thinking about resources.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Your time is up.

Ms. Mourani.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank you for your testimony. I will continue along the same lines as Ms. Minna.

I am having difficulty understanding. You said that it is easy when you are talking about child prostitution—well, we will agree on the definition that would have to be given to the word “easy” in this context—, but in terms of adult prostitution, it is more complicated because if we do not have the testimony of the victim, nothing can be proven.

Have I understood correctly? Is it because of the law, the resources or both?

11:55 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

Presently, it is because of the law.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Which one? That is to say that in—

11:55 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

We talk about procuring, because there has to be a victim. WIth regard to child prostitution consent is no longer an acceptable defence. Currently with regard to adult prostitution, the legislation remains in force and the defence centres on the issue of consent. In some cases, the victims will refuse to betray their pimp. I could make an analogy with domestic violence. In some cases, these women display behaviour typical of victims because they remain attached to the person exploiting them.

So all that individual needs to do, despite all the evidence gathered during an investigation, is to have the woman testify that she is an adult and entitled to do what she wants with her body and that she is a consenting adult. The individual will never be convicted.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

The individual will not be convicted, despite of your shadowing, the investigations you have conducted, phone taping and collected evidence of violence, showing that they beat the woman, they forced her to commit such acts and so forth... The fact that she would testify in his defence will be enough to counter your case against him.

Have I understood correctly?

11:55 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

I am not a lawyer, but this is how such cases are handled currently in court. You need to understand that this is not a victim's crime but rather quite the opposite. When a charge is laid it is in particular against someone who lived off the profits of prostitution of a very specific person. If that person denies that or says that she consented, then this constitutes a reasonable defence.

That said, I can corroborate, I can have—

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

—a lot of evidence—

11:55 a.m.

Sergeant Detective, Supervisor of Investigations Module (E.S.E.C.), Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, Vice and Alcohol West, Montreal City Police Service

Dominic Monchamp

I can have evidence showing that she gave him her money, that she prostituted herself for him and that he beat her but if she does not want to file a complaint and if she is comfortable with that, then there is nothing that we can do. It is the same as in domestic violence cases.

There are some investigative techniques. We could use a double agent, for example. These are things that are being done, but in such cases, the sentence is lower than it would have been had there been a real victim.