Status of Women Committee on March 17th, 2010

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, sorry.

[Jacinthe Guay]

Primary school, okay. Thank you.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I mean exposure, in terms of not getting into the gender stereotyping in the first place.

[Jacinthe Guay]

I think that children are exposed to stereotypes from a young age, be it through the stories we tell them or the activities we encourage them to take part in. It goes back to day care, before they are even old enough for school. One corner is set up for girls and another is set up for boys. It starts in childhood. Activities should be diversified, and all distinctions between boys and girls should be eliminated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The time is up.

I know if Ms. Russell or Ms. Calhoun wanted to give an answer to that question, perhaps when you get another question you might take the opportunity to put your two bits' worth in on this.

The next person would be Mr. Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fry.

Welcome.

What I am hearing today really makes me think. It seems that we are starting from a long time ago, that women have been taking up this fight for many years and that little progress has been made to improve women's access in school, university—in engineering, for example—or the workplace.

We mentioned equity legislation earlier. As far as jobs go, it seems that certain legal aspects are not working. The government has equity legislation, but it is not enforced. I wonder about that.

Do we have enough people to enforce this legislation? At the federal level, there was pay equity legislation. It used to be in force, but it no longer exists.

I would also like to hear your opinion on wage gaps. Ms. Russell, I want to know whether women who gain access to jobs in engineering, specifically, stay in those jobs or whether family or other conditions cause them to leave those jobs. According to a study in the university setting, in your field specifically, there are not enough female professors. They make up only 14%, and, unfortunately, those who stay on permanently make up just 7%. Does that not have a major impact, especially in your field?

I may also have questions for Ms. Calhoun later.

[Susan Russell]

From what I've heard, talking to young women, the crunch comes when they start a family. It's very difficult to juggle. A lot of them want to get ahead because it's a profession and a career. If they take time off, that really disadvantages them in the long run and they lose their career path.

I really believe that pay equity is important. I hear from young women that, on questioning their peers, they find that X, X, and X have been hired at the same time for the same job for a different salary. I feel that is unconscionable. If they're doing the same job, they should be having the same salary. That finding rather surprised me.

Evidence suggests that while stereotypes exist, no evidence exists that women are in fact inferior to men in these spheres. It's just the idea that they may be inferior. And that is a big, big battle for women, because they have to prove that they're as good and they have to prove it every time they go through a new job or go that route.

Child care and pay equity are very important. The other thing I heard, particularly in the trades, is there's a lot of inappropriate innuendo and joshing and outright abuse that goes on in the workplace--not so much in the professions, but I heard it goes on a lot in the trades. That should be more readily reportable and totally unacceptable, because women should not have to be harassed just because they're earning a salary.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Guay, I listened to what you said, and I understand that your round table seems to be an important tool. I would like you to elaborate a bit more on your position on that table.

[Jacinthe Guay]

I cannot give you up-to-date statistics on pay. But what we have seen is that, for a given position, the duties are separated between men and women, and the less important duties are given to women, which justifies the fact that they are paid less than the men.

What else can I tell you?

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you have a more general recommendation you can give us? You have told us a lot about day care centres, pay equity and employment equity, but is there something else that would further help women gain access to jobs? Does that also apply to the university setting?

[Jacinthe Guay]

I think employers need information. Prejudice comes from a lack of understanding of female-male work teams. Something can be done on that end, as well.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Calhoun, do you have anything to add?

[Sue Calhoun]

I certainly agree with Mr. Desnoyers' comment about the equity being lost. I don't think we're prepared to say it's lost, but we're certainly going backwards on the equity in this country.

Sexual gender stereotyping starts very early, of course, and it's very ingrained, but it's helped along by the things we do every day. I'll just give you an example. I work a lot with the community college system, and I've done a lot of research on IT. Every time I go on their websites--and this morning is an example--I open my paper and there's an ad for a community college program on sheet metal fabrication that is starting. The picture in the ad shows a man--and I don't think we should underestimate that. I went on it because we're addressing federal politicians.

I went on the armed forces website. It says “Wanted”, and there's a list of six different occupations, including air traffic controller, aircraft technician, and mechanic. I looked at each of those videos. One out of six was narrated by a woman, and there were very few female faces in those pictures. I don't know about you, but I think that's very important. I know the armed forces have been trying to recruit women, because they've been a sponsor at our national biennial convention the last two times. If I'm a young woman making a career choice and I look at those videos, they tell me that those occupations are really still male occupations.

So from the federal government's point of view, one thing we need to do is have more of a lens. If we're serious about getting women into these occupations, we need to make an effort. We need to show women's faces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Calhoun.

The next person is Ms. Wong.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks very much to all of you for coming.

I just want to give you a little background on where I came from. I used to work for a polytechnical university, where we trained a lot of students going into different trades and a combination of management and trades. So some of the questions will probably be related to my past experience.

I don't know whether my question is addressed to Ms. Russell, but there's also a common trend now for university graduates, especially from the sciences and arts. Because of the job situation, they want to go to technical institutes for an extra six months or twelve months of training to go into trades.

Are you aware of this trend, Ms. Russell, and that there are more jobs available in the non-traditional areas like trades and blue collar jobs, rather than white collar jobs?

[Susan Russell]

That's my impression. I have a son, not a daughter, who went into nursing after doing chemistry simply because of that. I'm quite sure that works for girls too. There are more opportunities, but the workplace has to be right because the dropout rate is frightening. The job atmosphere is not that favourable to women, from what I understand.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Yes. In other words, as I agreed, I think this is a complex issue, but I think the government has done quite a bit in encouraging that generally. For example, it was mentioned earlier by one of our witnesses that there now are grants for apprenticeships. Also, if they complete their red seal, they'll probably have more money coming in to help them buy tools. The same thing would probably apply to men and women.

I also fully agree with the fact that we have to start educating the parents and the younger generations. Little girls really should start looking at those options as well, even in primary school.

Am I right to say that we need different partners working together--not just the federal government--in trying to raise awareness?

I'm also aware of stereotyping. I would also take this opportunity to ask for the need for doing another study on how women are portrayed in different trades, and by the media as well. In other words, it's not just in government ads and company ads, but in the whole media portrayal of white collar jobs and jobs for women. Maybe this is something we can work on down the road.

What are some of the challenges and solutions in addition to what you just said, Ms. Russell?

[Susan Russell]

In the skilled trades?

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Yes. That's for any of the three of you, but Ms. Russell, you can start.

[Susan Russell]

I read some notes about that. I'm just going to look at what I have.

What I have here is that they've found gender discrimination in promotion and job assignments, which you referred to, and in performance reviews and recognition for a job well done. Another challenge was, in some cases, inappropriate facilities and equipment, i.e. not enough washrooms or appropriate washrooms for women. Other issues were overt sexual and gender harassment; lack of employment equity procedures; non-supportive attitudes for women entering this particular workplace; inflexibility about work assignments, and that would be shift work, I would think; lack of child care; and lack of an ability to arrange dependant care.

It's clearly not just a government issue. I think it's everybody's. It's the education. It's home. It's schools. It's a really complicated and interwoven issue.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Yes.

I also know of a model whereby students or young people go into trades in the early years but then have the option of becoming a business owner in that trade. I can see that women probably would feel more comfortable in that role. They start by going through the trade, they do it well, and then later on they can actually own and manage their own business in that specific trade. Do you think this might be a model that universities and colleges should follow? It was happening in B.C.

[Susan Russell]

For women to go into business...?

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Yes, after the trade. They learn the skills of the trade and then they can see the future. A lot of women would not like to go into a trade because they see it as a dead end, but what if there were a combination? There are degrees now.... For example, at Kwantlen Polytechnic University they can do the first two years in a trade and then move on to entrepreneurship. They can start with the trade first, so they know the trade, they're there, and they know the challenges. Once they become business owners, they will solve the challenges and questions you've just raised. Would that be a feasible model to follow in other parts of our nation?

[Susan Russell]

It might be attractive.

What do other witnesses think?

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

What about the other two witnesses? Do you think this might be something to help encourage parents to see that there is a prospect of becoming management, of managing your own businesses after that?

Sue, please.