Status of Women Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2012

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Would you both make....

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Forgive me for interrupting you, Ms. Sgro, but unfortunately your time is up.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Madam Chair, would you please ask the two witnesses if they could supply some recommendations following today's meeting to the committee on the kinds of actions that could be taken to improve the situation?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Do our two witnesses agree to comply with Ms. Sgro's request?

[Steven Gaon]

Certainly. I've got some very general recommendations in the material that I've provided to you already, but perhaps Mr. Rootham and I can coordinate our efforts. I'd be happy to discuss it with him.

[Christopher Rootham]

That would be fine.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Madam Clerk will follow up with you.

We are now going to have our last five-minute turn. Once again, I give the floor to the government side.

Ms. Young, you have five minutes.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Again, I'd like to say thank you so much for coming today and providing us with the information, which is very startling and interesting.

Following up on what Ms. Sgro was asking, are there any immediate recommendations that you feel, given your extensive expertise and experience in this area, the government can do or put into place that would have some very positive impacts?

Mr. Gaon, you said that maybe an earlier informal mediation process would be highly effective in terms of giving an intervention opportunity before things got too unbearable at work in those circumstances.

[Steven Gaon]

That's correct, but I will tell you this: those provisions are already there in the policy. They were already in the old policy. I'm sure you will find those provisions that require early intervention and early informal resolution in virtually every government harassment policy.

Really it's a question of educating people and making sure that they understand, particularly HR directors or those responsible for managing the process. They need to understand that those options need to be pursued vigorously at the outset.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Is this an education or training aspect for those senior managers who are in positions of authority or positions of decision-making, where they can pull the members in and tell them that if it continues, their job is at risk, or those kinds of things to informally set the tone and correct these incidents in the workplace?

[Steven Gaon]

I absolutely agree with that. In fact, where I've found that there's been—“failing” is probably too strong a word—a lack of adequate action on the part of a manager, it's usually because they have not intervened promptly at the outset. I agree that is a training issue. I think that managers need to be trained in this area and understand that early intervention will generally be effective.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Is it correct to say—Mr. Rootham, please feel free to jump in here—that in our deliberations about changing the culture, whether it's the RCMP, the federal workplace, or even the dribble-down effect in the business community, because we heard earlier that there are private businesses that aren't covered by federal policies, etc.... You are probably aware that our federal government launched a women on boards initiative in our last budget, with $5 million to put more women on boards. There is another aspect for this dribble-down effect in the private sector.

Getting back to my question, if the managers who are in these positions of decision-making were held more accountable or were better educated and trained about this aspect, would that have a huge impact—given that we already have these policies and programs and processes in place—for at least a high percentage of these incidents to be addressed in this kind of informal way?

[Christopher Rootham]

Obviously I can't speak to a number of the initiatives that you've mentioned because they're so new. We don't have any data yet about whether they're working or not.

You mentioned better education for managers. Some of the education needs to happen to allow managers to better recognize sexual harassment when it's happening in front of them. This isn't just about training people not to sexually harass. Quite frankly, a small number of people, but a number of people, are just never going to get it.

The training that would be most effective would be to train the managers to recognize that this is happening and act proactively instead of waiting for a complaint to materialize, and when a complaint does materialize, to deal with it quickly and effectively, not necessarily to punish the perpetrator, but to deal with it in whatever way is appropriate. If we can't do that, then sexual harassment is going to keep happening, in which case we have to find a way to create a proper remedy for the victims of sexual harassment, to make sure that they're willing to come forward and to make sure that their careers are put back on track.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

May I ask you to go a step further, though, and put out there the fact that it's not only the manager's role to recognize sexual harassment. Sometimes it's behind the scenes or on coffee breaks or lunch; it's not in the workplace. Perhaps it's up to them to create a work environment where people feel comfortable approaching them about this kind of thing, because they're not always going to be in a situation where they see it. The fact that the employee feels comfortable reporting that is something that's—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. Young, your speaking time is up.

The reply will really have to be very quick.

[Steven Gaon]

I don't think I have anything further to add, other than to say that your suggestions are certainly valid.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[Christopher Rootham]

It's the same for me.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

This concludes today's meeting.

I want to thank the witnesses, and I wish everyone an excellent day.

The meeting is adjourned.