Status of Women Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2012

[Karol Wenek]

Again, because that's a process issue that Tony is more familiar with, I'll ask him to respond to that.

I'm sorry; I'm not trying to duck this.

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

The preferred method for any complainant is to approach the supervisor and at that point hopefully engage in informal resolution.

The formal process is always available, and we certainly don't try to steer them away from it. If a member does not feel comfortable approaching their supervisor for whatever reason, we have workplace relations advisers in some units, and harassment advisers. As well, they can approach a dispute resolution centre and discuss the issue with somebody.

The dispute resolution centre will always try to turn it back, to make sure that they engage their unit personnel and the chain of command, depending on the sensitivity and the confidentiality. At some point it will have to be rendered onto paper so that we know exactly the details of who is involved, what the facts of the incident are, etc. The hope is that they'll go to the supervisor and try informal resolution. Early, local, and informal is the way we hope to resolve them.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am going to have to stop you here, because your speaking time has expired. Thank you.

I now yield the floor to Ms. Ashton for seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to everybody who's joining us today and for your presentations.

It's quite clear that both the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces have done a fair bit of work in terms of making sure there's awareness, prevention, and mechanisms to deal with sexual harassment when it takes place. I'm wondering if anyone from the RCMP has been in touch with either the ombudsman's office, or the civilian side, or with any of you or your offices, in terms of learning from some of the work you've done.

[Karol Wenek]

I'm not aware of any contact with us.

Tony, have you had any?

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

We have just recently stood up a foresight study on diversity within the CF, but we expanded that to diversity within the security community and invited reps from the Communications Security Establishment, RCMP, border services, and other related security agencies. We had several RCMP reps. While we didn't discuss harassment specifically, we have been asked to sit down and meet with them to discuss more on our employment equity and diversity policy issues, of which harassment is one that we manage. I'm sure it will come up as we get into those discussions.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

What's the timeline for that?

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

Because we're in the midst of the diversity foresight study at the moment, those discussions will probably occur after the foresight study completes, which should be later this month or early December. Probably early in the new year we'll get to discussing the other related issues.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Okay.

[Jacqueline Rigg]

On the civilian side, I'm not aware of any such consultations under way.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I realize the ombudsman's office is a bit different, but I'm wondering—

[Col Alain Gauthier]

There's nothing from our office, either.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

It's interesting. Certainly there seem to be some lessons to be learned from the work you're doing.

One of the issues we've discussed is the importance of exit surveys, which is a gap in the work that the RCMP does. There's no question there are some differences all across the board.

We're aware that in the 2009 national report to the Committee on Women in NATO Forces it was reported that a comprehensive analysis of exit survey data from 2005-2008 was under way as part of monitoring the rate of attrition for female members of the Canadian Forces. The report indicates that the analysis would be used to determine the factors “which prompt female members to leave the CF” and would be used to make recommendations of corrective measures.

Can you tell the committee whether this analysis included consideration of sexual harassment as a possible reason for departure from the forces, and if so, to what extent was it an issue?

[Karol Wenek]

The exit survey has been in place for a considerable length of time, I think at least 20 years or more. One of the difficulties in acquiring consistent data, particularly about voluntary attrition behaviour, is that completion of the survey is voluntary. In some cases individuals just don't want to say why they left, so we're not getting an entirely reliable picture of why people leave.

We looked at attrition behaviour as recently as 2008-09 because our attrition rate within the Canadian Forces generally was elevated. We were up over 9%. We're now currently at about 6%. We were concerned about the effect this was having on force expansion and our ability to meet our growth targets.

What the data from a variety of sources tended to show was that particularly for women, but not exclusive to them, it was a sort of work-life balance issue. Particularly as people got into 10-plus years of service, it got to be a big factor. As you are probably aware, the CF imposes fairly heavy mobility requirements on military members and their families. We move them around every few years. For many serving members with families and for members who have spouses or partners who are trying to maintain a career themselves, this becomes disruptive. At some point many of them have to face the decision: do I stay or do I go? Attrition in the later years of service tends to reflect that dynamic.

I don't recall anything that particularly identified sexual harassment or an unwelcoming work environment for women. In fact, in my recollection the attrition statistics show that the rates are about the same for men and women.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Out of the exit surveys, have you been able to make any recommendations around sexual harassment?

[Karol Wenek]

It hasn't surfaced as a sufficiently significant issue for us to address.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Okay.

To Ms. Rigg, earlier this year the Department of National Defence had 1,000 civilian jobs cut. We've heard from others, and certainly it's been stated outside, that it could be argued that job insecurity may cause stress and raise tension in the workplace.

Given that situation, which I understand is relatively recent, I'm wondering if you're seeing an increase in incidents of harassment, including sexual harassment.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have 30 seconds.

[Jacqueline Rigg]

We've not seen an increase related to that in terms of cuts that are being done in our department right now.

Basically, these cuts are being done minus names, people; it's just the positions. There's no identification of whether the incumbent is female or male when they're doing the exercises of streamlining our processes and our activities. We have not seen anything to this point.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

Ms. O'Neill Gordon, you have the floor. You have seven minutes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us this morning.

Certainly your presentation gives us a clear understanding of just what is going on in your department, at the Department of National Defence, in terms of how you are trying to prevent sexual harassment. I like your strong stance in the work you do to provide a workplace free of harassment. I think we're all working in that direction.

Your policy is clear and specific, and I'd say that prevention seems to be one of your key mottoes. You have been speaking a bit about training in harassment prevention and resolution that Canadian Forces members receive through their careers. In addition, you noted that the harassment prevention and resolution policy often prescribes training when a complaint is determined to be founded.

I'm wondering, with this focus on training, what sort of harassment prevention and resolution training is available to the members of the Canadian Forces, and at what level of their careers.

[Karol Wenek]

Let me approach this with a fairly broad perspective, first of all. I think over the last 20 years there has been a significant change in the culture within the Canadian Forces that has been reinforced by a number of initiatives, which all have this as a central focus: what is appropriate and professional conduct by people in uniform?

That goes back to the mid-1990s after we had some very bad stories about how POWs were treated. We had some bad stories about earlier cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault that led to a process of institutional reform that examined all those issues and tried to identify the gaps in our programs that weren't producing the requisite kind of professional conduct in some of our members—and I emphasize “some”.

That begins, I think, with the development of a defence ethics program that was instituted a little over a dozen years ago, maybe about 15 years ago, which articulates, as its first principle, respecting the dignity of all persons. In its elaborated statement, it emphasizes issues such as fair treatment of others and avoidance of discrimination and harassment.

That program is refreshed throughout the organization on an annual basis, and it's been identified by external agencies as a model program for us. The defence ethics program applies equally to members of the Canadian Forces and to civilian employees of the department.

We have completely revamped our leadership philosophy. Again, that goes back about eight or ten years. One of the central features of our approach to leadership is that while there is and always will be a strong emphasis on getting the mission accomplished, we must pay equal attention to how we accomplish missions: we cannot break the law of war and we cannot violate principles that are central to what we hold dear as a society and as a culture.

It's through those kinds of programs, through acculturation into what it means to be a military professional. We documented that as well, as part of this enterprise, into the development of a manual on what it means to be a military professional, called Duty with Honour. Again, it's those principles of conducting yourself in a way that will not bring discredit to the organization or to you as an individual.

All those programs have this theme that runs through them, and they are delivered at various stages and through various venues and career and leadership courses.

As I mentioned, everyone who goes through basic training—and everybody does, unless they have done it previously—gets this exposure to the behavioural norms and expectations that apply to them with respect to harassment and sexual harassment. They are exposed to what it means to live by the charter and the Canadian Human Rights Act, what it means to be a military professional, what's expected of them when they begin their leadership training—which starts very early for military personnel—and what it means to exercise values-based leadership.

Through all those programs, they get this theme of respect for others and treating people equally and fairly.

There are specific courses as well that deal with harassment.

Because most members get the basics—it's embedded in their normal military training—the specialized courses tend to be for harassment advisers, for people who provide advice and guidance to responsible officers, and for harassment investigators.

Is there anything you would like to add, Tony?

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

No, I think that pretty much covers it.

We have five levels of leadership development training for non-commissioned members and another five levels for our officers. In every one of those levels, any officer or NCM who's promoted into that leadership level will go through a professional development training course that will include and re-emphasize those underlying beliefs.