Status of Women Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[A voice]

It's not a broken record.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I'm sorry. This is my time to address the fact—

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon), Conservative, Tilly O'Neill-Gordon]

Keep to the question. Keep moving. You only have a few seconds—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Excuse, Madam Chair, I am keeping to the question. The point that I would like to raise, which ought to be on the record, is that if legal systems do not have the resources, whether in terms of legal aid or in terms of allowing courts to access remote communities, there is no access to justice. I think that is something that we clearly haven't heard from this committee.

My last question is, would you be open to amendments to Bill S-2?

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You know, this has been amended a number of times. The committee is master of its own procedure, so it's not for me to say whether or not the committee would welcome amendments or not.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

So you are open to amendments.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Listen, I'm a very practical person. If there are amendments that can add to this bill without affecting its execution or its principle, we'll look at them. But I think after so many years, with so many groups, so many people having looked at and studied and discussed and debated this bill, I trust it can pass as it is. But who am I to say that you can't come up with a beautiful amendment that would solve all of the problems of the world? However, if you talk about legal aid, it's not in the ambit of the bill.

You know, we're talking about basic rights and I don't see what has to be added.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon), Conservative, Tilly O'Neill-Gordon]

Your five minutes is up.

Moving right along to Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much to both ministers for coming here and appearing before the committee. I want to commend you for this very much-needed and long-awaited bill.

The reason we're here today is that we believe it is absolutely unacceptable that aboriginal women do not have equality with other women in this country, and I think it is important that we state that moral cause. I find it particularly shocking that the women across the table here, from the NDP and Liberals, are holding back what is a very important step for aboriginal women's rights.

I have some particular background in this because my mother started one of the first women's shelters in Alberta, and the majority of the women by far who were left destitute and homeless after spousal violence were aboriginal women. To be holding this back at this point, based on methodology and saying you want to consult with every single reserve in the country, when some 25 years have passed, $8 million has been spent, and 103 communities consulted, I find shocking.

I'd like the minister, and whoever feels they can properly address this, to respond to the following. One of the most important things we've heard today is that emergency protection orders save lives. I think we are talking lives here. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. This is, in my view, a very good single step forward, but I think we should make it clear. I'd like to hear how this bill will save lives.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Well, the point you made about shelters is interesting because there have been a number of witnesses before the committee that studied S-2 and on this particular issue. One was Jojo Marie Sutherland, who's a staff member at the Native Women's Transition Centre. She appeared before committee in January of 2011 and she said: On the reservation in the seventies, family violence was an everyday thing. You married the guy and you had to stick with the guy. The band house gets given to you. The band house doesn't belong to the female, it belongs to the male. If you decide to leave, you have to leave the house. That's what happened to me.

She talks about the real, practical issues that women are faced when, predominantly, it's the man who has title to the house. So if he's able to sell the house without her permission and keep all the money or ban her from the house, or no judge can order an emergency protection order to remove him from the house if there's spousal violence, you can only imagine what that means for women.

This really is a question of justice. It's justice for aboriginal women and children who do not have the right to protect themselves in these kinds of situations, when it's either a situation of family violence or a dissolution of the marriage. So without this proposed legislation, aboriginal women cannot go to court to seek an exclusive occupation of the family home or apply for an emergency protection order while living in their family home on reserve.

This bill does not propose anything new; rather, it will provide access to the same rights. So it's not different, it's just providing the rights and legal protections that we all have access to. They're already available to every other woman in this country.

The current situation provides no legal certainty on the dissolution of the marriage and of course, Bill S-2 will allow individuals on reserve to apply to the courts to negotiate the division of their matrimonial real property.

We understand that aboriginal women are often in remote areas with limited access to the courts and transportation. Importantly, the issue around emergency protection orders is acting quickly and needing to enforce and apply an emergency protection order quickly.

This bill does one thing that's unique. It allows an emergency protection order to actually be done by phone or e-mail because of the remote locations. A peace officer or any other appropriate person can apply that way on behalf of a spouse or a common-law partner if they live in a remote location. In a situation of abuse or violence where it's often dangerous to signal an intention to break off the relationship or to seek the protection of the police, the ability to have a peace officer or other appropriate person make the application for an emergency protection order can keep the victim from having to confront the violent spouse and possibly placing themselves in further danger. Again, it's very important for the protection of women. Perhaps it's something that Minister Valcourt will speak to in more detail later.

Bill S-2 also provides for the creation of a centre of excellence, which Minister Valcourt alluded to a number of times. I recognize that implementing any legislation where there isn't a great deal of capacity will require support, and we're committed to that. We're committed both in our department and in Minister Valcourt's department to support women who need access to building this capacity and to communities that need to build this capacity. At the end of the day we need to move forward.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon), Conservative, Tilly O'Neill-Gordon]

The time is up.

Thank you.

We'll go right along to Ms. Young.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Again, I want to thank the ministers for being here today and providing us with such a comprehensive overview of Bill S-2.

I used to work in the downtown eastside in Vancouver where I was a native youth and family worker and there I saw the effects of not having Bill S-2, where women and children were routinely on the streets because they were not able to stay in their matrimonial homes. So I also believe that this is a very important bill and one whose time has come. I think, as we've heard today in terms of saving lives, this will create safe places for women and children to stay in, as well as give equal rights to women.

I want to ask Minister Valcourt about the centre of excellence, because in my work there, as well as over the many years that I've done policy and program development for different levels of government, we recognize indeed that building capacity is very important.

Therefore, I was struck by the addition of the centre of excellence, which I think is a brilliant idea. It's not a presupposed formula, so that centre of excellence is there to assist and support the various communities and first nations to implement their own laws and acts. Where that doesn't happen within a certain time frame, my understanding is that the federal rules will apply.

So I'd like to ask the minister about how this centre of excellence is going to transfer the knowledge, information, and education about rights to these various communities across Canada and also create the centre of excellence to provide links, supports, and program expertise, all of the things the opposition members are talking about, and provide access to all those things, to existing experts and program services for those women and children who so need this Bill S-2.

Thank you.

[Bernard Valcourt, Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

Just to clarify an earlier answer concerning legal aid, right now legal aid is, as you know, provided at the provincial level by all provinces, and there are federal transfers to the provinces for these legal aid systems. If you look, for example, at provinces such as Ontario or New Brunswick, the family services that are available to women in need are available indiscriminately: whether you are on reserve or off reserve, you get the same service. The only thing is that on reserve, they have no rights.

To respond to the question you raised about the centre of excellence, it will be established hopefully within an existing national first nation institute or organization and will operate at arm's length from the Government of Canada and from the first nation seeking its services. The centre of excellence will support, as I said earlier, first nations in developing their own matrimonial real property laws, in implementing the provisional federal rules, and in providing assistance to create alternative dispute resolution mechanisms.

I ask members of the committee not to underestimate the genius of first nations in Canada. Everyone takes for granted that it will be high-priced lawyers who are going to settle this. There are many first nations in which a council of elders can be used to solve many of these issues, as long as those rights are acknowledged and recognized. Don't underestimate the potential and the genius of first nations in Canada.

We have an implementation plan for this legislation that will call upon my department, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Public Safety Canada to play into the implementation. We have a public education and awareness campaign. The centre of excellence is another aspect of this. We will have training and education for key officials at the provincial level, including police officers on reserve and provincial superior court judges. This is not something we are just throwing out there irresponsibly; there is an implementation plan to ensure that finally aboriginal women, aboriginal spouses, and couples on reserve enjoy the same rights that too many of us take for granted.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

I'd like to direct this next question to Minister Ambrose.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon), Conservative, Tilly O'Neill-Gordon]

You only have five seconds.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Then I guess I would like to say that the centre of excellence sounds like a very fluid model that can be used to direct Bill S-2 in the way it is going to evolve and be integrated into the various communities so as to give women and children these rights.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon), Conservative, Tilly O'Neill-Gordon]

Thank you very much for your attendance here this morning. We will now clear the room in order to move in camera for our business meeting.

We thank you very much. We will return in a few minutes for our business meeting.

[Proceedings continue in camera]