Status of Women Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Then I will move that we continue the debate on my motion now.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

The clerk of the committee is telling me the debate has been adjourned and that decision must be upheld for the duration of this meeting. Your motion can be dealt with another time, if a committee member so wishes, from the next meeting onward. The debate cannot, however, resume today because the motion to adjourn carried.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

The clarification is, I don't believe I have to reintroduce my motion at the beginning of the next meeting. It should automatically be on the table for discussion at our next meeting.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

My understanding is that either you have to reintroduce it or someone else has to request that we resume the debate on the motion.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Madam Chair, I will present it gladly.

I'm just saying that I don't think that's the process. I don't want to waste time on logistics here, I will move it at the next meeting, and if the parliamentary secretary chooses to adjourn the debate, we'll never get this finished. If that's the message they want to send out today to the women of Canada, when we're supposed to be celebrating the 140th anniversary of the RCMP, I think it's absolutely despicable, especially for a committee like this.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you, Ms. Sgro.

We will now move to Ms. Crockatt.

You have five minutes for your questions and answers.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Sherry Lee, it's wonderful to see you again. Thank you for coming to committee, and I'm sorry we took up quite a bit of your time on the process.

I know that you are one of the first women who came forward to tell your story. I commend you for that. It must have taken a huge amount of courage.

Do you feel that your coming forward has made a difference? How do you feel about the process now that you're sitting here today, compared to where you started from, which I can imagine was in the depths of despair?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

Wow. That's a very good question.

Coming forward was the most terrifying thing I've ever done, basically because I knew the history. I knew that the reaction would be negative and that the retribution would be quick and swift. I was correct on that, but I knew there were other people out there who were probably more terrified than I was.

As I said before, there were whispers. There were always whispers across the country, and now it's a roar, which is wonderful. I had to do that because I knew if I didn't, it was going to destroy me, and I thought it wasn't right. I have this fierce sense of justice and equality and I knew I had to find justice by speaking out.

On the equality part, I knew there were other people out there somewhere, both male and female, who were treated like I was, because as I said before, there were whispers. I hadn't seen anyone around me treated like I was, because I would have definitely spoken up for them. That's why I did that, and I've never regretted it.

As a matter of fact, I received an e-mail a little while ago from a gentleman who is still in and is having a difficult time. He's not sure if he wants to stay in the RCMP. He asked me if retiring at 20 years was worth it. I had to really do some thinking. I thought it was, because my mental, physical, and spiritual body was being destroyed. If I hadn't spoken out, if I hadn't written my book, which is my voice, then I don't think I would be here.

It's not that I wanted to make a decision to kill myself, it's just that I wanted to end the suffering, go to sleep, and not wake up. If I hadn't spoken up, I don't think I would be here. For people to speak up and say what has happened to them is very important to the healing process.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Now, do you feel that you've made a difference?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

I think so, yes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Can you explain how you think that you've made a difference?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

I've made a difference for the justice and equality part for the people who are in my immediate sphere of influence, my partner and my daughter—she is a very strong feminist—and then, of course, people who are both RCMP and non-RCMP. When they speak to me, when they read my book, they see there's a variety of things that many people can relate to, the bullying, the harassment, the sexual violence, the intimidation, the fear, and then my journey from one side of despair to the other.

If I can do it, then they have hope. You want people to have hope. That's what keeps people from jumping off a bridge, or shooting themselves with their own gun, or dying from diseases brought on by stress. I feel I have made a difference, and if nothing ever changed in my life, I would never regret speaking up and taking a chance, and being a further target, and writing my book and taking a chance with that. I would never regret that. I'm pleased that people—

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

That's great. Do you think you've been a catalyst for some institutional change that needed to happen?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

I think after this, in 2002, with regard to the grievance process that was so confusing.... The problem with the grievance process at that time was that so many people retired or were promoted that nobody was really able to make a decision. They made some changes with regard to that, and the duty to accommodate. Of course, they didn't follow through with the duty to accommodate in my particular case. They did make some policy changes; I simply wasn't lucky enough to have the benefit of them. I feel happy because if I hadn't done that, they would still be doing the same thing. So after 140 years—

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

So there has been some positive.... Go ahead.

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

After 140 years, if they're still doing the same thing, they're still going to get the same results. It has to be an organizational shift with everybody.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.

Your time has expired.

Mr. Choquette, it's now your turn. You have five minutes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Morin.

Ms. Benson-Podolchuk, thank you for participating in our discussion.

This past February, the Commission for Public Complaints against the RCMP released a report entitled “Public Interest Investigation into RCMP Workplace Harassment: Final Report”. It discusses the fact that harassment may be under-reported, because of, among other things, fear of reprisal and concern that the complaint may not achieve significant results.

From your experience and observations, do you believe sexual harassment is actually under-reported within the RCMP?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

Oh, definitely, and that's because people are afraid. People are terrified. The squeaky wheel gets bonked on the head. They're the ones who have the stalled careers. They're the ones who get further targeted for harassment or alienation within the detachment, or that particular rank. So, yes, I believe it is under-reported.

I looked over that new report by Commissioner Paulson on gender, respectful workplace, and there are so many errors in it. Success, to him, would be that nobody reports. Well no, nobody was reporting before, because they were terrified. Simply because he's not receiving any reports doesn't mean there's not a problem, and there still will be a problem until they deal with the fear people have of reporting, and the fact that nothing is going to be done if they report. So they think, “Why would I bother?”

That's a very good question.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

There's a real problem, then. People don't report it and that leads to an under-reporting of problems that likely still exist within the RCMP.

How do you think it would be possible to increase the number of reports made? What solutions would you suggest? You may have mentioned that already, but I'd like you to elaborate a bit further.

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

They have made some changes, which is great. The shift within the mindset of the organization and this culture of protectiveness is definitely going to take some time, because people have to buy into this idea of a respectful workplace.

For me, I think they would have to continue with the training, and not an online course where you just choose ,a, b, or c, and you pass. That means nothing. It's actually getting in the trenches with people who have been harassed, such as speaking to Catherine or the other women who have been involved and having people come and present exactly what it looks like. What does harassment look like? What is the impact?

As a business, they should realize they need to take care of their employees. They're losing so much money with people being on sick leave, spending it on the education, and spending money on not having people there. Improved training and conferences where people are actually interacting with victims of harassment would be one way.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

I will now turn it over to Mr. Morin.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Mr. Morin, you have just over a minute.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have to say that, after listening to you and following your experience, I'm shocked. When will someone wake up and realize that the organization has suffered a tremendous blow by losing an employee with such a strong sense of justice?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that the harassment problem in that environment is similar to the kinds of things that happen in all other workplaces. People try to be friendly at first, paying compliments and such, and the behaviour escalates until there is no respect at all. You are objectified and victimized.

I don't think that can change from the inside. Those in charge, especially in the government, have to take over the process in order to bring about a genuine and significant change in culture. Those people have to realize that all the actions you and hundreds of your colleagues have been subjected to do not constitute jokes or funny remarks, but devastating incidents. It's devastating not just for the victims like yourself and your colleagues, but also for the entire country, because everything would run much more efficiently if the workplaces were more harmonious.

What do you think?

[Sherry Lee Benson-Podolchuk]

You just make me want to cry when you say that. I've been saying that for so long. After my—