Status of Women Committee on April 17th, 2023

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll give you the one minute to respond to the question. How's that? It's no more than one minute, though.

[S/Sgt Robert Chrismas]

What I want to say is that I haven't been directly involved in investigations for the last couple of years.

I'm glad to see that you have a couple of police officers on the agenda who are currently doing investigations. I'd rather leave the technicalities of the investigations and the policy to them, but what I want to say about this is that in the big picture, I feel we put way too much focus on the importance of enforcement and the role that police can play and not enough emphasis on how we as a society and all the other elements can work together around these issues to improve resilience for women, to help prevent them from being taken into the sex industry in the first place.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Pomerleau.

My colleague Mrs. Vien referred to the age issue. On that point, I want to make sure of something. When you talked about the age of 16, you were talking about a provincial children's law.

Do you have a recommendation to make to the federal government for enacting a law that would apply across Canada relating to the justice system?

[Miriam Pomerleau]

Absolutely. The federal government could have the responsibility of engaging in dialogue with the provinces so these kinds of things don't happen. At present, the provinces are not talking to one another. I don't know how a mechanism could be set up to make things run more smoothly. There is plainly a lack of communication at this point, which has serious repercussions on people's lives, quite simply.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

In your experience, these are mainly 12- to 22‑year-old girls. What role could the federal government play with the provinces, when it comes to 12- to 18‑year-olds? You said we had to solve the problem at the source. What programs could be put in place in the primary, elementary or secondary schools? Do you have any recommendations to make in that regard?

[Miriam Pomerleau]

Absolutely. The federal government would have the power to work with the provincial authorities to offer training in the schools for pre-adolescent boys on consent and how to treat women in society, in intimate relationships and sexually, whether on the Internet or in real life.

To be logical, training would also have to be offered in the schools for girls aged 12 and over where they would be told about consent, about their rights, and about the early warning signs of manipulation for sexual purposes, on the Internet and in real life.

Obviously, this training would take direct account of what young people really do on social media. It is high time the schools were given tools, because that's where it all starts.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

You also talked about drugs and dependancies. There is currently a pilot project in British Columbia concerning the legalization of certain drugs. Would you recommend that we consider extending measures like this so they apply in other provinces? I am thinking here about young people, because drugs seem to be a major problem when it comes to exploitation.

Do you make a direct connection between these two things?

[Miriam Pomerleau]

Personally, I don't see what legalizing these drugs would accomplish, particularly in the case of the extremely hard drugs I talked about. It would be flatly unacceptable to legalize those drugs.

My position is firm: legalizing that type of drugs would amount to running head-first into a wall.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Great.

Mrs. Mourani, you spoke earlier about strengthening the law or perhaps changing certain police practices.

Do you have specific recommendations to make to our committee regarding ways of strengthening the law?

[Maria Mourani]

That is a very good question.

In fact, it is kind of up to you to see how you can strengthen the law in question.

I would say that the problem really lies in evidence gathering. The difficulty on the ground at present is evidence.

When it comes to the pimps, as I was saying earlier, it's fine. The police have been working on that for years. When the law changed, some time was needed to adapt before they could address the buying of sexual services and also advertising sexual services. Here again, advertising is very far down the police's list of priorities.

I think the situation is the same more or less everywhere in Canada, but I'm going to talk about Quebec. When there are minors involved, when there are criminal groups, drugs and weapons, it will be easy for the police to act. Unfortunately, it's different when it involves 18‑year-old women. As I always say, though, what difference is there between 17 and 18 years old? There isn't any.

I have seen cases where the parents had asked for police help in the case of a 17‑year-old minor who was going to be 18 a few months later. The police acted to get the minor out of the situation and out from under the pimp's yoke. However, the police no longer had the same power to act when the person turned 18 and said she had no problems and the pimp was her boyfriend. It's a bit like what Ms. Pomerleau was saying earlier. In a system of manipulation like that, the person ends up believing the pimp is her boyfriend. In fact, there are two scenarios: either the person is terrified or she is in love. That is why it is extremely difficult for the police in these circumstances.

In the case of the prostitutors, the ones called the clients, it is extremely difficult to prove the purchase of sexual services.

What I'm saying is that we really need to focus on prevention, starting now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Andréanne. Andréanne, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the three witnesses, Mr. Chrismas, Mrs. Mourani and Ms. Pomerleau, for being here in connection with this study.

We see that human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation is a growing crime around the world.

Ms. Pomerleau, my first questions will be for you.

As well as being the status of women critic, I am also the gender equality critic. We often talk about the statistic that says that 96% of victims are women. In fact, you mentioned that in your brief. People talked to me about this during our mission last week. It's also a statistic that was cited during the two-day conference held in Winnipeg.

I would still like you to talk to us about the fact that this figure underestimates the number of members of the LGBTQ+ communities, and also even men, who may be included among trafficking victims. We also have to take that into account when we talk about the numbers and statistics relating to sex trafficking.

[Miriam Pomerleau]

The official statistics say that women account for 96% of human trafficking victims, whether what's involved is sexual exploitation or forced labour. It's important to point out that for every person who comes forward, nine others do not. We agree that all we're seeing at the moment is the tip of the iceberg. That's what we're trying to sort out.

Homosexual men and others from LGBTQ+ communities definitely represent more than 4% of sexual exploitation victims. It's only logical. Complaints are much less frequent in marginal settings.

And there are fewer organizations that provide support to men in difficulty. Male victims are almost absent from census statistics but are certainly there on the ground. When their suffering is ignored, they are seriously put in harm's way.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pomerleau.

As you were saying, this whole area is seriously underestimated. The figures we have now are only the tip of the iceberg. It is of course extremely difficult to obtain actual numbers on human trafficking and sexual exploitation, because they are difficult to quantify. These crimes are largely hidden, meaning that they are committed in the shadows by criminal organizations that do everything they can to sweep things under the carpet, making it difficult to find the victims of these offences.

In response to a question from my colleague on this topic, you mentioned the Internet and social media. Beyond what we've just been talking about, there is more and more discussion of an act that is in the works on hate online and in social networks. Any such act would inevitably have to address the issue of online sexual exploitation. It is in fact something I've seen in my travels: everyone says that this type of crime changed enormously during the pandemic and that it's now widespread on the web.

What can you tell us about that?

[Miriam Pomerleau]

Since we're talking about online hate, why not go straightaway to online sexual exploitation? They're interrelated.

Whether we're talking about child pornography or human trafficking on the dark web—yes it exists—traffickers and consumers are mainly men. And they come from all levels of society; they could be businessmen, lawyers, students, construction workers or computer programmers. Demand is increasing so rapidly that it's extremely difficult to categorize the people creating the demand. What's clear is that they are men. This is clearly shown by the suspects who are arrested.

In short, it's changing very quickly.

What was your question again?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Do you actually have any recommendations for us to ensure that the federal act also factors in the growing phenomenon of online exploitation? Right now, it's the wild west; you can say anything you want on social networks. That's also true of recruiting. It's very difficult to detect these online criminals, just as it's hard to do anything about someone who watches online violence.

What would you recommend to ensure that this act takes all that into account.

[Miriam Pomerleau]

Everything related to hate needs to be linked to sexual exploitation, because that's what can happen as a result. It often does happen, in any event. Unfortunately, what we usually see is men exploiting women. We need to ask ourselves all kinds of questions about this.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In this study, we've been talking a lot about prevention. We are trying to find out how we can better educate people to prevent human trafficking and sexual exploitation. It also has a lot to do with helping victims.

But how can we do a better job of detecting these sorts of crimes? I'm from the community organization side of things. In Quebec, we've talked a lot about street work and outreach. Generally speaking, do you have other recommendations on how to improve the detection of these crimes? It's all very well to work on prevention and helping victims, but how can we do a better job of identifying the perpetrators?

[Miriam Pomerleau]

You mentioned that earlier. I think it's one of the keys to the solution.

The police are trained to respond to emergency calls and complaints. Their work is crucial.

As for sex trafficking hot spots, like massage partners, transitional apartments and red-light districts, it's important to rely on street workers' knowledge. They've been there since the 1970s. They have information and expertise that is directly related to sexual exploitation victims. I don't know why they aren't consulted more often. For god's sake, let's recruit more of them and raise their pay. I don't think they are used nearly enough.

There has been a shift in the approach being used by neighbourhood or community police, and that's a good thing.

This line of work needs to be promoted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to go online to Leah Gazan. Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Again, I'm sorry that I'm not there in person. I have a little bit of a cold and I thought people wouldn't really want to see me with a cold, so I decided to stay online today.

I just want to welcome everybody to the committee today.

My first question is for Maria Mourani.

In your testimony, you spoke about some of the reasons that individuals who are being trafficked—sexually exploited—might be afraid to come forward.

Part of the reason I have a little bit of a cold is that we went on this whirlwind tour, and I think my body just said that it's time to rest.

One of things you said was that part of the issue is that they misunderstand their rights and how the legislation protects them. When we were on our tour, however, we met with an organization in Halifax. They did a report and an outline of all the customers, and their breakdown showed that 50% of sex workers had customers who solicited or paid for sex who were law enforcement officers; 38.9% had customers who were professionals, such as doctors and lawyers; 27.8% had customers who were political, spiritual and cultural leaders, and 38.9% had customers who were their landlords or employers.

I share that because the very people who are supposed to be protecting women, girls and diverse-gendered individuals seem to be perpetrators themselves. Do you believe that one of the factors that prevent people coming forward is that the people they are coming forward to could be their actual customers?

[Maria Mourani]

That's a very good question, Ms. Gazan.

I've been working in this environment for years, and can tell you that people who use prostitutes come from all social classes. That's also true of prostitution with minors. The customers could be just anyone, but very often they are men in positions of power, businessmen, politicians or people working for big corporations. That's one of the reasons why they are afraid to inform.

Among other things, women tell me that they are afraid they won't be believed. They wonder what what they say will matter compared to a politician or a well-known businessman who earns billions of dollars. There were a few scandals of this kind in Quebec. The women said that they would not be believed. So the fear of not being believed is one of the reasons why they don't come forward.

Speaking of fear, one recommendation I might make to the committee is to do away with the notorious closed work permits. These are issued to young women from abroad who are supposedly required to work in places like Montreal's posh restaurants, but who end up working unwillingly in the sex trade. The so‑called employers, who are really pimps disguised as restaurant owners, use these permits to keep women on a tight leash. The women don't dare to report them, because they're afraid of being sent back to their home country. They are also afraid—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm glad you say that, because I represent Winnipeg Centre—

I'm sorry, but there's a bit of an echo.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Maria, could you turn off your mike?

There we go. That's perfect.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

I represent Winnipeg Centre, and it's actually the riding where Peter Nygard's clothing industry was built. He was a well-known sex trafficker. We know that. He's currently in jail.

I know there's a case against him in New York and certainly one in Toronto. In Winnipeg, the hub of it, even city councillors and sitting MLAs were seen with him in Barbados, but no one is pressing charges. There are no charges or cases against him in Winnipeg.

In the documentary by The Fifth Estate, women came forward who hadn't been believed. Are you familiar with that case? Do you have any comments on it?