Evidence of meeting #20 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Wilson  Coordinator, National Health and Safety, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation & General Workers of Canada
John Burns  Vice-President and Coordinator, National Health and Safety, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation & General Workers of Canada
William Brehl  President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference - Maintenance of Way Employees Division, Teamsters Canada
Mike Wheten  National Legislative Director, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference - Local Engineers, Teamsters Canada
Todd Cotie  Coordinator, Health and Safety, Local 2004, United Steelworkers
Robert McDiarmid  Chair, British Columbia Legislative Board, United Transportation Union

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Mr. Mervin Tweed (Brandon—Souris, CPC)) Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone.

I'm sorry for the short delay. For committees to move in and out takes a few minutes.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 20: a study, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), of rail safety in Canada.

Joining us today, from the National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers of Canada, are Mr. Jim Wilson and Mr. John Burns; from the Teamsters Canada, Mr. William Brehl and Mr. Mike Wheten; from the United Steelworkers, Mr. Todd Cotie; and from the United Transportation Union, Mr. Garth Bates and Mr. Robert McDiarmid.

As indicated when you acknowledged your willingness to appear today, we're going to have one person speaking from each organization, and you're going to be given seven minutes to present. I will try to keep it reasonably close to that timeline, simply because we have allotted times for questions too, and I know there will be lots of them.

With that, we'll start. Mr. Wilson, are you going to start us off, or your organization? You have seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Jim Wilson Coordinator, National Health and Safety, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation & General Workers of Canada

You were given earlier two submissions. One was a submission to the standing committee, a cursory review that we did; also, you were provided with our comments with respect to the RSA panel recommendations. We have comments on every recommendation, I believe, that was provided to you. That's the submission I'm going to discuss right now.

The CAW of Canada welcomes the opportunity to provide the Standing Committee on Transportation, Infrastructure and Communities with its comments concerning the Rail Safety Act review recently released to the public. The CAW is Canada's largest private sector union, representing over 260,000 members in more than 2,100 workplaces across the country. We have experience with federal as well as provincial railways.

Some 30,000 federal sector workers are represented by the CAW. This figure includes about 11,000 rail workers. Most work for the large private-sector employers, such as CN and CP Rail. Others work for VIA Rail, and yet others work for smaller railway enterprises such as the ONR, TransCanada Switching or OmniTrax, and Great Canadian Rail Tours or Rocky Mountain Vacations, all of which are federal enterprises. A small number of our members also work for provincial railways.

The CAW rail division includes the former Brotherhood of Railway Carmen of Canada or BRCC, the former Shopcraft Council or CCRSU, and the former Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Transportation and General Workers, the CBRT&GW.

The duties of the approximately 11,000 CAW rail workers include repairing and maintenance of freight car equipment and locomotives, servicing passenger cars, building locomotive consists, crew calling, customer service, operating locomotives, and performing conductors' duties on trains on smaller railways.

In the view of the CAW, this makes us more than qualified to speak with authority with respect to rail safety. In our cursory review of the report of the Railway Safety Act Review Advisory Panel, the CAW has found what we consider to be an outright bias of the panel. The report's first pages thank the railway lobby group, the Railway Association of Canada or RAC, for its input. The panel fails to make mention of any other group that took time to also make extensive submissions to the panel.

In addition to thanking the RAC, the panel pointedly quotes from parts of the RAC submission in its report, but again fails to quote from any other submission made to the panel. Contrary to the panel's report, which in our view tends to downplay the state of rail safety, the CAW believes the state of rail safety is much more precarious than the report would have you believe. In our view, the report has failed in its purpose and mandate.

The CAW has reviewed the recommendations of the RSA review advisory panel and offers our comments in italics after each recommendation of the panel. You have all had this ahead of time. If you want, I can go through every recommendation; if not, we can leave it there and move on.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I suspect we wouldn't have time to do it. If you have any other comments, though, you certainly have a couple more minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Coordinator, National Health and Safety, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation & General Workers of Canada

Jim Wilson

I think a lot of why we feel the report has failed is because it hasn't dealt with what we believe our concern has always been, which is that when we bring items up to the regulator, they seldom get dealt with.

We believe that the railway companies will get away with what the regulator allows them to get away with. The safety management system in itself is not an end-all. Within the document that was tabled, it almost seems as if they say a safety management system is the system that will help move the railways forward.

The safety management system is just a process on how to manage safety--how to deal with safety on the property--but you also need strong regulations and strong rules to be applied.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

John Burns, go ahead.

11:20 a.m.

John Burns Vice-President and Coordinator, National Health and Safety, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation & General Workers of Canada

We also believe that the panel failed to take into consideration the mechanical aspect of the locomotives and the railcars. We don't see anything in the panel's recommendations. As the panel will tell you, we brought forward reams and reams of paperwork outlining defects that we've brought to Transport Canada's attention.

We don't see that it talks about beefing up the regulations anywhere in the report. In fact, we're concerned that they're giving more power or autonomy to the railways to make their own rules or water their own rules down and taking the authority away from the regulatory body who are outside the scope of the bottom line, if I may put it that way.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Brehl, are you presenting?

11:20 a.m.

William Brehl President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference - Maintenance of Way Employees Division, Teamsters Canada

Mr. Wheten and I will share our seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Absolutely.

11:20 a.m.

President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference - Maintenance of Way Employees Division, Teamsters Canada

William Brehl

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Bill Brehl. I'm the elected national president of the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, maintenance of way employees division. We represent over 4,000 Canadian men and women who inspect, maintain, repair, and build the track and structures at Canadian Pacific, as well as those on almost two dozen short lines.

Because of this, we are positioned like no one else to truly appreciate the gravity of rail safety in this country and to assist in making the proper recommendations for its improvement. This is not a collective agreement issue or a bargaining issue or a labour relations issue. This is a safety issue, solely responsible for the safety and well-being of the employees and the public at large.

It is our firm belief that safety on Canada's railways must be improved. As the railways run longer and heavier trains in greater numbers, the wear and tear on the track and the equipment increases. Canadian Pacific's yearly mainline derailments climbed by over 21% in 2007, and they are steadily increasing.

Here is a snapshot of significant mainline train accidents at Canadian Pacific just within the last two weeks, beginning at Easter. On March 23 over a dozen coal cars derailed, overturning in the Rogers Pass. On March 25, on the Laggan sub, two locomotives and another two dozen cars derailed, spilling potash. On March 27, just east of Hope, a grain car broke its axle and was dragged for over three miles, destroying in excess of 1,500 ties.

On the same day, on March 27, in Ontario, north of Toronto, on the Mactier sub, a broken wheel caused the mainline to be shut down with over 60 broken rails. On April 1, on the Cranbrook sub, another train derailed, putting nine cars on the ground and spilling a mixture of commodities, including zinc. On April 5, right in downtown Medicine Hat, there was the derailment of two engines on a train carrying anhydrous ammonia. And now, yesterday morning, just outside Weyburn, Saskatchewan, there was a derailment involving three trains with dangerous commodities, including butane, ethylene glycol, vinyl acetate, dinitrogen tetroxide, rocket fuel, and nitric oxide. The fire is still burning there as we speak.

Even though not all train accidents are caused by track or equipment failure, the increase in traffic does cause fatigue on an already weakened infrastructure. It also limits the access to the track for proper inspections and maintenance. Even though it stands to reason that when more trains are run inspections should be done more frequently and maintenance schedules more strictly adhered to, this is sadly not always the case.

In the report of the Railway Safety Act review advisory panel, reference is repeatedly made to the need for openness, transparency, and accountability in the safety management, policy development, and rule-making processes. We agree. To achieve this, the advisory panel turns to cooperation and collaboration, a commitment to the development of trust and to the building of solid, professional relationships among all the parties involved. Again, we agree.

However, with the greatest of respect to the excellent work done by the advisory panel, we believe not enough consideration has been given to the critical role played by the men and women who, in rain and shine, blistering heat and bone-chilling cold, report for duty every day for the sole purpose of ensuring that our railway system, the backbone of the Canadian economy, operates as efficiently and as safely as possible.

To put it bluntly, no one knows and understands Canada's track infrastructure better than we do. Our relationship with the track is not mediated by risk assessments or safety reports or business cases. Our relationship is hands-on, direct.

We applaud the advisory panel for its recommended changes and enhancements to the rule-making process, but for any of these recommendations to succeed, the changes have to be able to be implemented on the ground. They have to be realistic, clear, and practical from an operational hands-on point of view. In short, they have to be possible, and that's where we come in.

Since we are the ones who will actually be responsible for implementing any proposed safety procedures or protocols, we believe our input must be sought and considered not only up front but on a permanent and ongoing basis. We have seen too many of our fellow workers injured and killed to know that safety rules that may look good at the planning stage may well be counterproductive when implemented.

In closing, I'd just like to say that the only way there will ever be a truly safe and efficient railway system in Canada is if the concerns, suggestions, and recommendations of the men and women, who on a daily basis actually maintain that railway system, are heard and in a formal way incorporated into the decision-making, policy development, and rule-formulation process.

Thank you.

Mike.

11:25 a.m.

Mike Wheten National Legislative Director, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference - Local Engineers, Teamsters Canada

First of all, I'd like to thank the committee for having us here this morning to hear our views.

I'd like to make an apology for our president, Mr. Dan Shewchuk, who wanted to be here, but it was impossible.

In the interests of saving time, I'm simply going to summarize our brief, which I'm told committee members already have a copy of. Our brief covered two topics only: scheduling train crews, and the improvement and replacement of outdated railway rest facilities.

Crews today are generally called on a first-in, first-out basis. For a time at CN, crews were called in during “time windows,” that is to say, they only had to protect a certain period of time, for example, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., three days per week, or perhaps every second day. This was when they were called out of their home terminals. For its own reasons, CN abolished this system. Crews are now being called under the old first-in, first-out system, which is very difficult for crews to work under. CP has some crews that are presently being called in time windows, but not that many.

We would also like to discuss the company's rest facilities, many of which must be replaced for safety's sake. These facilities are old, do not have noise abatement at all, and are totally inadequate as measured by the CANALERT standards. It is impossible for crews laying over in these facilities to get restorative rest.

It is entirely possible to make changes to crew scheduling and railway rest facilities. It is our opinion that doing so would eliminate many of the factors that lead to fatigue among train crews in Canada.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cotie.

11:25 a.m.

Todd Cotie Coordinator, Health and Safety, Local 2004, United Steelworkers

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As of February 19, 2008, I have been the health and safety coordinator of USW, Local 2004, for one year. This company-paid and unionized position represents approximately 3,200 railway maintenance workers across the country. In my role, I act as a liaison between our members and the company in handling issues regarding health and safety, and I sit on the joint health and safety policy committee.

I previously spoke in front of this committee on April 30, 2007. Subsequent to that appearance, my remarks were the subject of numerous critical comments made by senior CN officials toward me and about the future of this position. The suggestion was that it was inappropriate for the health and safety coordinator to speak publicly or to criticize CN's performance. This has been an ongoing theme for the past year.

I believe this position has been proactive in improving the health and safety of the USW members we represent, and it demonstrates the effectiveness of including workers in the safety management system. Conversely, CN risk managers have a tendency to be reactive about safety issues and are generally unavailable to our membership, as they are often asked by the company to operate trains, to the extent that our members do not even consider calling them on health and safety issues.

Our presentation today will be a brief overview of our thoughts on the RSA review. Although the panel did support our view on numerous issues, we do have three areas that we would specifically like to address today: the speed of trains, the hours of work, and the escalation process. I'll end with a few thoughts on the culture of fear and discipline.

Our first point is about the speed of trains and our workers. This issue was first raised at the standing committee one year ago, and later as part of the steelworkers' RSA submission, which you've received. I refer to page 4. We are disappointed that the RSA panel did not address this concern in their review. However, subsequent to an employee's work refusal in March 2007, and based on his concern, a work-clearing procedure agreement was negotiated for employees working on multi-track territory, restricting the speed of trains passing a work site to a maximum of 30 miles per hour if safe clearing areas are not available within flagging limits.

We continue to request that train speed restrictions near workers be included in the Railway Safety Act. It's unfortunate that an issue as important as this, which has been raised for many years at multiple levels, had to fester into a work refusal before there was any movement.

Our second area of concern is hours of work and emergencies. We are pleased that the RSA review recognized the need for improved fatigue management in the railway industry. Although the focus of the panel's recommendations was generally on transportation employees who are operating trains, we feel that similar issues occur among maintenance workers.

In a study published in September 2000 by the British journal Occupational and Environmental Medicine, researchers report that sleep deprivation can have the same effects as being drunk. The study found that people who drove after being awake 24 hours were comparable to those with a blood alcohol content of 0.10%, which would be above the legal limit in Ontario. Our concern is that CN has a zero tolerance drug and alcohol policy, but the same policy does not prevent employees from working, driving and operating machinery while completely exhausted, with similar symptoms to someone under the influence of intoxicants.

The concern for us is that our members are sent to derailment sites after an accident to fix and repair a track so that trains can again safely pass. Often, crews are flown in many miles from their own work sites, and work excessive hours at these accident sites, without proper shelter, food, or sanitary facilities. An example can be found on page 7 of our submission, where you will see that on November 24, 2005, a CN train derailed in an isolated area in northern Ontario, approximately 145 kilometres away from Geraldton. To facilitate repairs, 25 maintenance workers—based in Newmarket, Ontario, at the time—were flown on short notice at 8 p.m. to Geraldton, and were then bused three hours, on mostly logging roads, to the accident site. Upon their arrival at 1:30 p.m. the following day, having been on duty for approximately 13 hours, several workers were concerned about their lack of rest and their safety, but a CN official boarded the bus to brief the employees and stated, “I'm not going to accept you not going to work”, and “if you don't [go to work], tell me now and I will lay out the consequences after”.

After the briefing, all employees did work. These men spent 30 hours on duty in their first shift, 16 hours in the next, and had no shelter and no proper personal facilities in mid-winter conditions. They were required to continue working long after the emergency conditions were over so that trains could again be brought to full speed.

We have recommended that USW Local 2004 health and safety reps be present at major derailments to alleviate any similar safety issues on site. We believe that the Canada Labour Code allows for the presence of an employee representative. This recommendation is currently at the policy committee, and we are awaiting the company's response.

Our third issue is the health and safety escalation process. This past year, I've attended many local health and safety committee meetings to evaluate their effectiveness in resolving or escalating health and safety issues. The trend seems to be that management representatives at the local level unilaterally decide what concerns will be documented in the minutes, almost as if they do not want anything escalated to the policy committee.

On the other hand, as a policy committee member, I can also see that the policy committee is disconnected from the grassroots worker. The majority of employees are unaware that a policy committee even exists. In fact until I became a member of the policy committee, I did not know that there was such a thing or what its function was.

The steelworkers are currently educating our membership on this process, and I've seen more issues resolved as a result. Our goal is to create an effective communication system for health and safety that is consistent nationwide.

Finally, I'd like to end on a few thoughts of what we see now as the war on fear and discipline. Common sense is defined as sound practical judgment derived from experience rather than study. Common sense tells us that railway companies should encourage those who work in the field to be proactive in guiding the processes that help build a culture of safety.

The Railway Safety Act review panel would agree with this. An effective safety management system starts from the bottom up, utilizing the experience of front-line workers and embracing their input to develop safer processes. The perception is that CN is discouraging employee input by putting the fear of God into them. If you speak up, you'll be disciplined. If you speak too much, you'll be fired.

We believe that the Railway Safety Act review panel is correct in their assessment that CN is building a culture of fear and discipline. The mindset of the employee is at the point where employees are more fearful of receiving discipline or losing their job than getting injured or worse. This must change.

CN will tell you that the vast majority of accidents are caused by human behaviour. In other words, they believe accidents are the fault of individual bad workers only. This isn't true. If it were, CN would be able to discipline its way to safety, and the culture of fear and discipline would be an effective approach. As we've seen, it's not.

Accidents are the result of the combination of failures in policy, procedure, human action, and equipment. To focus solely on one aspect of cause is counterproductive to accident prevention, as doing so would allow the other aspects of cause to become prevalent without solution.

For the worker, the most effective way to fight the war on fear and discipline is with knowledge. The Canada Labour Code is a bible for health and safety, outlining employer responsibilities and employee rights. It's not a guideline; it's the law. Those whose safety depends on its contents should learn it, and those who must adhere to its law must be held accountable.

A culture of fear and discipline can successfully reduce the likelihood that a worker will call upon their basic rights under the Canada Labour Code. A company can combat a worker's right to know by not providing education or training. They can combat a health and safety committee's right to participate by keeping them in the dark on concerns, accidents, and injuries. They can combat a worker's right to refuse with pre-emptive disciplinary measures.

All of these can be a successful strategy for a company that values statistical data over reality. The thought is that everything must be okay because no one's reporting anything. However, with this panel's findings, the “catch us if you can” attitude is no longer viable.

CN's method of safety has been 100% compliance to their rules 100% of the time. My question is, where do their rules come from? Who develops them? Are employees involved with the rule-making process?

Under CN's five guiding principles, safety is the employee's responsibility. Yet the employee is not involved with the development of the rules that are supposed to protect them. Their only involvement in the rules process is through the employee investigations that occur subsequent to alleged rule non-compliance.

The employees who actually perform the work in the field must have involvement with the rules and processes that are applied. The steelworkers believe that safety is everyone's responsibility, not just one group's. This is common sense.

There's a strong connection between the health and well-being of workers and their work environments. When workers feel valued, respected, and satisfied in their jobs, and work in safe, healthy environments, they're more likely to be more productive and committed to their work. When the workplace is unsafe, stressful, or unhealthy, ultimately both the company and the workers are hurt. Everyone benefits from a safe and healthy workplace.

The objective for creating a safe work environment must be to instill confidence back in the health and safety system. Disciplining targeted workers, either directly or indirectly, for speaking up about safety issues is an action that demonstrate to employees that production is more important than their well-being. Employees are continually told that employee behaviour is a cause of accidents.

The paradox is that the disciplinarians are employees too, and their behaviour in the form of intimidation, bullying, poor decision-making or rule-making can be just as easily blamed for accidents.

We have to change attitudes ubiquitously. Trust, open communication, and commitment to safety are the first steps in instilling employee confidence back into the health and safety system and negating current negative perceptions among employees.

If I may borrow and conclude on this idea from Thomas Paine, author of Common Sense, the long habit of not thinking that this culture of fear and discipline is wrong has given CN Rail the superficial sense that it is right. I suggest in this circumstance that we seek common sense for guidance.

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. McDiarmid, go ahead, please.

11:35 a.m.

Robert McDiarmid Chair, British Columbia Legislative Board, United Transportation Union

Thank you.

My name is Robert McDiarmid. I'm with the United Transportation Union. Incredibly, that represents, still, 2,800 members in Canada, primarily at CN Rail and also at the various short-line railways.

We're speaking today towards the recommendations of the panel on the formulation and adoption of rules. The Railway Association of Canada has the resources to use in developing their submissions on rule changes; however, the unions are left with very little time to respond. A 60-day timeframe is unrealistic. Unions do not have the resources and manpower available that the RAC has.

We suggest there should be opportunities for unions to provide full and meaningful input before and during the rule process, and a 120-day response time, as well as the ability for unions to recover their costs from the railways due to the significant injection of resources on the part of the unions.

As regards delegative power, we're concerned that this would have the effect of enshrining an agent such as the RAC under the Railway Safety Act, when clearly the responsibility lies with the railway companies to develop rules. There exists at this time an unlevel playing field, particularly between the unions and the RAC, and occasionally changes sought by the agent are not in the interests of safety or the employee.

Under the administrative monetary penalty, we'd like point to the McBride, B.C., accident in May 2003, where two CN employees were killed when a bridge collapsed. A penalty of $75,000 was imposed by the Transportation Safety Board, which amounted to one half-day's pay for the CEO of the company involved.

I'd point out that the first administrative monetary penalty ever applied was $3,125.

Therefore, we request that the fines levied be significant and meaningful to act as a deterrent to a railway company, and we further suggest that these fines should be applied to individual officers, as contemplated by the “Westray Act”.

As to safety management systems, some carriers' management of safety must evolve to the health and safety culture, and we believe this culture is widely interpreted by different railway companies. We have reservations that unless the safety culture of various railways is drastically improved, these recommendations will do little to improve the SMS. We suggest that these elements cannot exist in the current atmosphere of fear and discipline. Members are afraid to report injuries, as they will be investigated and in most cases disciplined for being injured on the job. Our members know that even with an excellent work record of over 30 years, they're just one accident or derailment away from possible termination. So this cannot be a just system.

A first step in changing the safety culture would be for the railway companies to embrace paragraph 135(7)(e) of part II of the Canada Labour Code, which allows health and safety joint workplace committees to participate in “all of the inquiries, investigations, studies and inspections pertaining to the health and safety of employees.”

As to fatigue management, the CANALERT '95 study is mentioned in the review, and it is important to note that these fatigue countermeasures recommended by the working group are not being utilized by all carriers.

In recent years CN has aggressively attempted to diminish collective agreement rest provisions. More recently, in the collective bargaining between the UTU and CN in late 2006-07, CN sought to have our collective agreement rest provisions eliminated completely and to have our members rely solely on the regulatory requirements. We suggest that the strike at CN in 2007 was in part due to the railway company attempting to bargain away these terms and conditions of employment.

The CN company policy change in 2005 regarding booking unfit has seriously compromised our members' ability to address key issues such as work schedules, alertness strategies, rest, lifestyle issues, and unusual circumstances. CN views employees only as an asset similar to a locomotive or a boxcar.

As to voice recorders, we suggest that there are serious privacy concerns regarding voice recorders, and the union also suspects that this voice data will most certainly be used by unscrupulous railway companies to identify undesirable employees. Therefore, we are requesting that only government regulators be responsible for voice recorder data collection to ensure that this information is used for accident investigation only.

On training for operating crews, we have significant reservations at this time and concerns specifically surrounding the training of new conductors, yard forepersons, and helpers, and the fast-track system of training at CN Rail. Because of the hiring practices, training practices, and lack of real experience, our employees and our country are at risk. We have new conductors working with limited training, working with locomotive engineers with little experience, working with rail traffic controllers who have only recently been hired with very little experience. This situation could result in an accident of significant proportions.

We request that the regulations and legislation be enacted that give Transport Canada, in consultation with the railways and unions, the authority to set course structure, qualifications, and minimum standards, including the minimum number of qualifying tours for operating employees.

We also request that new regulations for training employees on the beltpack be implemented. Currently, you are okay to operate a beltpack on the first day you qualify on your rules.

On drug and alcohol testing, it was recognized by the panel that there is an absence of correlation between testing positive for drugs and having been impaired while on duty. Our members in Canada are not subject to random testing. However, company policy of some carriers allows for the company to apply drug and alcohol tests in certain situations, such as post-accident situations or use of poor judgment. Some of our members have tested positive post-accident in a drug test, and they were automatically terminated. Therefore, we are recommending that legislation and/or regulations be enacted that require a railway that is performing drug testing, mandatory or not, on an employee to have an impairment test administered to the worker, which would measure the level of impairment.

Thank you.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Volpe.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

I couldn't help but wonder through all your presentations whether there isn't a we-and-they approach to virtually everything that happens between your members and the railways. I hope you'll forgive me if I've mischaracterized what you said, but I'm just wondering what kind of work environment that might be. Issues I've heard you bring forward, especially Mr. McDiarmid, are ones that would be dealt with in a collective bargaining environment; but unless I'm mistaken, either they have not been accepted or they've been ignored, judging from what you said. Is that correct?

11:40 a.m.

Chair, British Columbia Legislative Board, United Transportation Union

Robert McDiarmid

I think you are accurate in your representation of that. We are in a reactionary position. The companies are the ones that dictate the policy, and we must react to it. So if it's us and them, then we're forced into that. It's not necessarily a position we want to work from.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It's not a very comfortable position you've painted about labour relations in the country. I guess from this committee's perspective, we've been looking at the rather frequent incidents of rail derailments and rail accidents, and every member has his perspective, but it seems to me that there's one railway that keeps coming up. I'm wondering what's happened in the relationship with that railway company that results in so many accidents. It wasn't always that way.

11:45 a.m.

Chair, British Columbia Legislative Board, United Transportation Union

Robert McDiarmid

We have a situation here where employees with long service are contemplating retiring the very minute they can get out of there, but they would otherwise have offered five to ten more years of service. They love their jobs, and they're good at their work, but there is this atmosphere, and they've had enough and are ready to leave. That brings in new employees, inexperienced, and I think we will be able to establish that most of these incidents are happening to those new employees.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I think a couple of you also indicated—but you didn't say it directly—your frustration with the regulator, and you really want the regulator to come back in and establish a system that everybody accepts. The climate we've been talking about in this committee is one that's been supportive of an SMS system, but I think Mr. Wilson and Mr. Burns both pointed out that it's rules that are being imposed rather than an SMS system that's being encouraged. I know as well—I guess it was Mr. Cotie or others who referred to a particular sheet that I think everybody has before them—that safety is every employee's responsibility: follow the rules, practise safe work procedures. I guess, on the face of it, most people would say that's pretty good. I gather you think that's top-down and not bottom-up.

11:45 a.m.

Coordinator, Health and Safety, Local 2004, United Steelworkers

Todd Cotie

Yes, you're seeing a real disconnect between the two.

Being on the policy committee and not so far from the field, I can see that it's somewhere in the middle that the communication is getting lost.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

But isn't it in the interests of all employees to abide by rules that are there for the purpose of safety?

11:45 a.m.

Coordinator, Health and Safety, Local 2004, United Steelworkers

Todd Cotie

Absolutely, but part of the problem is who makes the rules. Where do the policies being presented to the employee come from? We're not involved enough in the process, and you'll see it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

But is it the process or the actual outcome that's a problem? If the rule is good, does it matter where it comes from?