Evidence of meeting #7 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was track.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:40 a.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
You talked about rules and regulations. I gather there's a distinction between them. Railways set their own rules, do they, and we set the regulations, which vary from railway to railway?
10:45 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
There are two provisions in the Railway Safety Act for rules. There's section 19, which is for cases when the regulator orders the railway to develop a rule. There will be a timeframe and certain parameters that they have to meet; then they will file the rule with us, and the minister will approve the rule. Also, there's section 20, which allows the railways to develop rules on their own initiative, which they will file with the minister and the minister will approve. So in either case, the minister approves the rule.
The distinction between rules and regulations is that regulations apply to all railways, whereas some railways may have specific rules that apply only to them. Generally speaking, what we're trying to do is to have rules that uniformly apply to all railways, because it's becoming really hard for us to follow.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
My question would seem to be that if individual railroads each have to develop their rules, and if there is some commonality, then you're, for want of a better term, reinventing the wheel.
10:45 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
There's a provision in the act encouraging the railways to make sure they're consistent, but most of the railways are members of the Railway Association of Canada, and they provide a power of attorney to that association. The association usually files rules on their behalf, and all the ones that are signatory, which is the majority of the railways, adopt the same rules.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
The final question relates to Mr. Jean's question, to some degree, in terms of track, but I think Mr. Shipley made the reference to municipalities and the concern about standards for crossings and standards for bridges, if you want to call them that—structures where the track is elevated or crosses a river.
Are there standards? Can you provide us with the references to that—
10:45 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Yes, I can provide you the reference, but not the standard, because they're big books. But we can tell you where they are, if you want to consult them.
10:45 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Yes, railway crossings and bridges.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Let me interject here, with the bells ringing. We have a 30-minute timeline for a vote. To continue with the committee, I need unanimous consent to continue with a few more questions.
I have Mr. Fast and Mr. Masse left, and if we'd like to do that, I would allow them to finish their questions. Then what I'd like to do is have the room cleared to go in camera for about five minutes to determine what we're going to do with this draft report, and also to decide Thursday's business.
I'll go to Mr. Fast, and then Mr. Masse, very briefly.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Messieurs Bourdon and Grégoire, if you would, please comment on this statement: perception reflects the current state of rail safety better than statistics.
Do you concur with that assessment, or do you disagree?
10:45 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
I will just comment on it. I don't agree or disagree with it, but that's what SMS is all about. A company—and we've seen this in aviation—could conform to the regulations and to the legislation, but there could be some kind of feeling that there was a problem we were not able to pinpoint. With safety management systems you will find out about perceptions because you will interview the employees. You will talk to the people and find out not only whether they follow the regulations but whether they believe in safety.
Perception for those matters is important, but let's remind ourselves that perceptions are neither a fact nor a reality; they're only perceptions. Perceptions can vary between individuals, but it's important to find out what people think.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Do you have any idea why the perception is different from what our statistical evidence tells us is the case--as you know?
10:45 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
No, but in the transportation system in Canada, making sure the public perceives that it is safe is as important for us as its actual safety record. We tend to measure the perception of people by interviewing them, by doing surveys, asking if they think the transportation system is safe in Canada. If they say yes, that's one good thing. We also have to look at the evidence on whether or not it's safe.
We want both to be high. If people perceive that the system is not safe, even though it could be the safest, they won't travel. If they don't travel, it's not good for the economy.
10:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Am I correct that the funding program for road and rail separation that we used to have, which I think ended back in 2000, has not been reinstated at all?
10:45 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
No, we have a program now. It's called the contribution program for improvements to railway crossings.
Oh, you were talking about grade separation. We don't cover grade separation.
10:50 a.m.
NDP
10:50 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
That was before my time.
10:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
It was before mine, too.
10:50 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
When you refer to railway inspectors, are you referring exclusively to the field inspectors who inspect the tracks, or do some of them actually go into the offices where the safety systems are audited?
10:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
There are three types of inspectors. There are the track inspectors, the inspectors of the railway operations, who board the locomotive and the VIA Rail cars, and who see how passengers are informed of safety procedures, and there are the inspectors who enter the offices to inspect the systems.
10:50 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
How many of those 101 inspectors work in each category? That will give us an idea of the numbers.
10:50 a.m.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
They are divided into three categories: Those who inspect the locomotive and cars, those who inspect the operations, and those who inspect the engineering and the infrastructure.
An inspector generally starts with a visual inspection. If it is okay, fine. However, if the inspector wants to dig a little deeper, he will go into the office. He will then look at documents, at the training program and at anything else which falls under his mandate. For example, he might look into when an employee was trained and then review the training program. He will also examine whether the employee is doing a good job or not. He will look at supervision. He will review all the methods and policies which are in place to support what he saw on the ground.
So inspectors have to do these two things in the course of their work.