Transport Committee on Feb. 10th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the second meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. The orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), are the supplementary estimates (B) for 2008-09: votes 1b, 5b, 10b, 20b, 30b, 35b, 35b, 40b, 45b, 55b and 75b under Transport, referred to the committee on Thursday, January 29.

Joining us today is the Honourable John Baird, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities; and the Minister of State for Transportation, Mr. Rob Merrifield; and I see Mr. Louis Ranger.

We thank the minister for attending. As you're probably aware, there are several questions members would like to ask you, and if you can get through your opening comments as conveniently and quickly as you possibly can, we'll get at it.

With that, Mr. Baird, I'll welcome you. Please proceed.

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Transport]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to be before the committee. I thought that at the outset I would ask each of my colleagues from the department who are at the table to introduce themselves and give their position, just for the record and for all members of committee.

[Mary Komarynsky, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Group, Department of Transport]

I'm Mary Komarynsky, Transport Canada, assistant deputy minister of programs.

[John Forster, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Communications Branch, Infrastructure Canada]

John Forster, assistant deputy minister, policy and communications and infrastructure.

[Marc Grégoire, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

Marc Grégoire, ADM, safety and security.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

We'll proceed.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Excellent. Thank you very much for having us here before the committee.

I'm particularly pleased that, from the reports of the committee's work in recent years, by all accounts it's one of the most constructive committees. It's not a partisan or political committee; it's one where people work together and accomplish things. I was very pleased to learn that. I look forward to working with each and every one of you in the days, weeks, and months ahead.

We're here today to talk about the estimates, though. From the last number of times I've been before estimates committees, often there are questions that fall outside that, which I'd certainly welcome a dialogue on. We're committed to working together with members from all parties on the important issues of transport and infrastructure.

Since being asked by the Prime Minister to accelerate our infrastructure investments, I've travelled across the country and consulted with provincial, territorial, and municipal leaders. These consultations have really bred an unprecedented consensus. All levels of government have come together and agree that we need to get federal approvals done more quickly and get infrastructure projects moving right across the country, from sea to sea to sea.

During this time of global economic uncertainty, I think it will be an important part of our economic action plan. That's where we were able to find agreement on a five-point action plan that we presented to first ministers not a few weeks ago—and I'll have more to say on that shortly.

As you know, as I look back at the work of this committee, I especially want to highlight the work that's been done by many of you on making recommendations to the Navigable Waters Protection Act. This act is one of the oldest pieces of legislation still on the books. In fact, it was passed during the days of Sir John A. Macdonald and is badly outdated, as many of you have argued at this table.

We're moving quickly to cut the red tape that the act ties around so many projects in Canada, both large and small. We're giving the act teeth so that we can make a difference in what really counts. The amendments based on the input of this committee will speed up many projects significantly while ensuring that we maintain environmental protection where it needs to be for major works. Veteran members of this committee can be proud of the work they've done on that act, and I look forward to working with the newly elected members of the committee on these issues as well.

I congratulate you on your election to the committee and desire to work with a committee that is working on issues that are at the top of the government's agenda and the public agenda. The government wants to keep Canadians working and keep Canada strong. We're doing this by making strategic investments in projects that are building roads and bridges, border crossings, and transportation hubs. The value of these projects is twofold: it will help get people working today and also make a difference in the lives of Canadians for many, many years to come.

I've been working with other levels of government to make sure their infrastructure investments have the desired result. Since being named minister, I've met with premiers and infrastructure ministers from every province and territory. I've also met with dozens of mayors and other municipal leaders. These people represent different political points of view and various levels of government, but as I mentioned earlier, I did find a broad consensus.

That led us to our five-point action plan to speed up infrastructure approval and investments that we announced last month after the first ministers met here in Ottawa. The plan includes working with provinces and territories to put key major infrastructure projects on a fast track through the Building Canada major infrastructure component, offering all remaining provincial- and territorial-based funds over the next two years in order to start more infrastructure projects in the short term, accelerating projects and funding in smaller communities to create jobs over the next two construction seasons when our economy needs these most, reducing duplication and streamlining federal processes to address potential environmental and other impact of projects, and fast-tracking federal review and approval processes to get important projects started sooner.

The first ministers unanimously endorsed a consensus document that supports all these objectives. Premiers from all political stripes agree that this plan can help create jobs and build a better Canada. We all want to cut red tape and duplication, simplify the application process, and have a clearer, less bureaucratic process for the Government of Canada to approve projects.

Our infrastructure plan delivers results for Canadians now, during the economic storm, and in the future, when our investments will give us a competitive edge. We have agreements in place that determine what's eligible and what's not, and we are committed to promptly paying invoices sent by the provinces and municipalities as they come in. Remember, they are the ones that implement these projects, so they need and we need their commitment to help us ensure that Canadians are working at building a better Canada.

History, though, has shown us that major infrastructure programs can take time to properly launch, and there are a good number of examples in recent years under the previous government on those. We are moving as aggressively as we can to make things happen, to give a green light from the federal government so that funds can flow and the construction projects can begin and be taken forward.

I'll give that as my abbreviated remarks and ask Minister Merrifield whether he has any other issues he'd like to raise.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Minister of State (Transport)]

There are a couple of things.

It's a privilege for me to be able to be here, and I want to start by saying how much I admire the work of committees. I've spent a fair amount of time on committees over the years, and I certainly treat committees' work with a tremendous amount of respect.

With that, I want to say thank you for the job you did with regard to railway safety. I'm going through that at the present time. I congratulate the committee for years gone by and some of the work that you've done.

I want to talk about some of the new money in our economic action plan. We have not only the $33 billion in the Building Canada plan, but another $12 billion of new money for infrastructure spending. This includes $4 billion in an infrastructure stimulus fund that will help the provinces, territories, and municipalities to get their projects started as soon as possible. There's another $2 billion to accelerate construction of colleges and universities, so this is actually good news on that front. There's $1 billion in the new green infrastructure fund; $5 million in support for the construction of new community recreational facilities; and also accelerating the base funding, which is, as you know, $25 million over a seven-year period per province.

As the Minister of State for Transport, I have the privilege to oversee many of the crown corporations that fall under the Department of Transport. Some of these you may not know, because I certainly didn't know, until I got into the portfolio, just how many of them there are. There are 15 that I'm directly responsible for, crown corporations such as Canada Post, the Canadian Mint, Marine Atlantic, VIA Rail, and many others. They play a very important role in the day-to-day lives of many Canadians, so I take the job very, very seriously.

As Minister Baird has mentioned, we need to work together to keep Canada working, to keep it strong. Our economic action plan includes the support of these crown corporations as well. One of those happens to be, as was mentioned in the budget and as you well know, the Champlain Bridge, under the Federal Bridge Corporation. It's Canada's busiest daily crossing, vital to the transportation and commercial links of the island of Montreal and the province of Quebec.

Very important as well is VIA Rail: $407 million for VIA Rail, another $71.8 million in rail safety. VIA Rail is very important, particularly the connection between Quebec and Windsor. Actually, the Montreal-Windsor-Ottawa-Toronto corridor is very important, and some of the work that will be done there is very exciting for VIA Rail and to help get Canadians moving.

When you think about what rail does for this country, there is a tremendous amount of traffic as far as passenger traffic is concerned, and that's what VIA does. But over 75% of the land movement of goods happens by rail in this country. It's very important that we get that right.

We'll discuss these measures a bit more, I'm sure, in the 2009-10 main estimates. We're pleased to be able to be here to work together for a prosperous future, at a time when the economic slowdown that is happening internationally is of utmost concern and very, very important. It'll be on the backs of all of us to be able to make sure that we, under our watch, work together for the betterment of all Canadians.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We are happy to be here. We welcome your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Volpe's going to lead off, with seven minutes.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome the minister and his officials, notably Mr. Ranger whom we have known for a long time. The others are new officials, except for Mr. Marc Gagnon, whom we know quite well.

Ministers, I'm glad to hear that you have such a positive view of where we're going. Certainly we've given an indication that we want to cooperate in moving forward, but in moving forward we'd also like to get to some pretty specific issues.

I noted that in your presentations neither of you talked about the supplementary estimates, so I wonder if you'll allow us to deviate from your presentation for a moment and go to them. It will only be a moment or two.

There are two things you mentioned in particular that I'd like to ask some information about. I don't know which of the two ministers wants to address the issue of the National Capital Commission—perhaps Minister Baird because it's in his backyard.

I noted that in the supplementary estimates you are looking for an additional $5.4 million for operating expenses and an additional $10 million, which represents something in excess of 40% of the amount that was initially allocated over the previous budget. That $10 million was for capital expenditures. Do you want to give us just very briefly, in about 10 seconds, those projects that weren't thought of in the last budget but that, between the budget presentation and when you became minister, became really crucial?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll say two things before I turn the floor over to officials, if you have further questions.

While the National Capital Commission reports to our portfolio, Minister Cannon is the minister responsible for the NCC, so it's properly before this committee. I'm happy to give my best answer and then I'll look to officials.

When the NCC mandate review came forward when budget 2007 was issued--the NCC lost its capital budget in the late 1980s--I was one who was concerned, as were many local members of Parliament of all political stripes, that they were selling off assets. So they were given a $10 million or $15 million capital operating budget increase in 2007, and that only kicked in once the full report on the NCC mandate review came forward.

Is there anything else?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So it came forward? And is that why you gave them the extra $10 million?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's the best answer I can give you. I can turn it over to my officials.

[April Nakatsu, Director General, Crown Corporation Governance, Department of Transport]

Yes, that's precisely it. Having it in the estimates is allowing the NCC to access the funds that were given in budget 2007, so it is exactly what the minister said.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

For what specifically, though?

[April Nakatsu]

The capital is to replenish their acquisition and disposal fund. They have been using it over the years to cover their operating costs, so this is being put back in so the NCC can start acquiring some of the lands in Gatineau Park. It has approval to purchase lands under certain amounts, so it's putting back into the NCC some of the money it has been using.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Back in 1989, the government of the day eliminated the capital budget, and this puts significant pressure on when they have to fix up things like the parkway and bridges and make land acquisitions in Gatineau Park. In the 2007 budget, they were given a $10 million capital budget and $5 million for other operational issues. A hold was put on that $10 million pending the mandate review, which I think was a logical thing, and now the mandate review has been completed and the money is available to the NCC.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm sure your officials would only be too happy to give some indication of where that money has gone. For which specific acquisitions?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We would be very pleased to get a full accounting to you.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Great--through our chair.

I wonder if I can turn to Minister Merrifield for just a moment on VIA Rail, because you highlighted it, and I noted that while you're a proud spokesman for VIA Rail, you didn't talk about projects down the road in terms of rail transportation.

The hot issue of the day, of course, is whether we'll go into high-speed train travel and the kind of investment we would want to make. Without going into the budget, the action plan, but still sticking to supplementary estimates, the line for VIA Rail has $335 million, which is an increase of about 52% over 2007.

I'm one of those people who believes that yes, we should build more rail, so don't think I'm going after you, but I am concerned about what we get for our money.

Thinking in terms of the billions of dollars that Minister Baird said we are going to expend for infrastructure and stimulus spending--more about that later--it comes out to about 130,000 jobs for every billion dollars of expenditures, each job being valued at about $75,000 including benefits. But with VIA Rail, since you've expressed such positive views on it, I'm looking at their last report, which goes to the end of 2007, and it has a passenger capacity of only about 55% usage. With government input of an additional roughly $135 million--roughly, I say, because it might be off by about a couple of million--what are we getting (a) in terms of jobs, (b) in terms of efficiency, and (c) in terms of making the system more workable? What kind of construction are you putting into place or have you authorized to justify that kind of expenditure for VIA Rail?

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'm not exactly sure where your second number came from, but $516 million in capital out of the last year's budget, right? That's what was there, and there's $407 million again in this budget's action plan. I can speak to where we'd like to go with that, and that's in infrastructure as well--building new cars, building new engines, and also laying a tremendous amount of track. I think there is a projected 66 miles of track, all in the goal of moving traffic faster, particularly in this corridor between Windsor and Quebec--and not all of it there, because some of those cars are going to go right from the Prairies, right from Vancouver all across the country. But this track laying will happen, parts of it third rails so movement can be increased. I think the goal is 30 minutes' increase in time, which will give a tremendous amount...not only more capacity or more traffic on the track but also efficiency of--

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm looking at the report here, and it says that the average passenger load factor is only 55%. Yet the government increased its amount from $213 million to $335 million. Again, if we're going to spend that money, I want to know where it is that we're putting the money. Yes, you say you're laying down track, you want to spend money on locomotives, you want to make the thing more efficient. Where are you buying those locomotives? Do we have a buy in Canada policy? Do we have a policy that says we are going to lay track--we're not just acquiring land, we're actually laying down the track--and exactly where it is? It seems to me that an additional $135 million isn't going to get you very much. I'm wondering where you picked up that $500 million figure, because that $500 million figure was the one that the government announced in the Building Canada fund for transportation when about 40% of it, $200 million, was going to go to Ontario, all of it for the Peterborough-Toronto line.

Where did this money come from?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'll just ask the minister to be very brief. We're at the time limit.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

In that case, what I'll do is get you the actual facts of it. Most of the money that I think you're talking about is in last year's budget. I'll let Louis Ranger speak to that.