Transport Committee on May 11th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you.

[Catherine McKenna]

I do want to correct something. I apologize.

Ehren Cory, I believe, was CEO of Infrastructure Ontario. There's a big difference, but he did do major projects, transportation projects. He was involved with that too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very, Ms. McKenna.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

We will have our last round of questioning, and we will begin that with Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Genuis, the floor is yours once again. You have five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Very directly, Mr. Pickersgill, did you participate in meetings with the Government of Canada at which McKinsey products or services were pitched?

[Andrew Pickersgill]

McKinsey doesn't pitch in the Government of Canada. We respond to requests for proposals. We describe our expertise. We follow all procurement guidelines.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is this what McKinsey calls “selling without selling”?

[Andrew Pickersgill]

Mr. Chair, as I said, we follow relevant procurement guidelines—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, but that wasn't my question. This is what McKinsey calls selling without selling, which is when you go into a meeting, you talk about your expertise and you talk about the work you've done for other clients. The purpose of those meetings is to demonstrate your expertise in pursuit of potential business.

[Andrew Pickersgill]

It is normal course for, occasionally, government leaders to reach out and ask for a range of opinions from advisers from other places. That's done by the professional civil service and it's also—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong yet. I'm just asking. Did you attend meetings at which the goal was to present McKinsey as a desirable vendor to the Government of Canada?

[Andrew Pickersgill]

When invited to describe our credentials and our expertise, of course I do that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You participated in meetings in which that was an objective.

[Andrew Pickersgill]

I'll say again that we follow the procurement rules for the Government of Canada—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, could you bring the witness to order?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

He has an obligation to answer the questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'm sorry. I have a point of order from Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd just like to know the scope of the question, and if it meets with the scope of the study. We heard testimony that the witnesses said they had no contracts with regard to the Infrastructure Bank after 2020, so if Mr. Genuis is referring to other contracts with McKinsey and the government, it would be outside the scope of this study.

Can he clarify? Is he referring to Infrastructure Bank contracts specifically and meetings around that? I think they clarified their timelines, so I'd like to make sure we're within the scope.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. O'Connell.

I'll defer to the clerk and would just ask for one minute of the committee's time—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, could I just speak to the point of order briefly?

First of all, I had a separate point of order, which was that I wondered if you could remind the witness of his obligation to answer the questions that are being asked.

I can assure Ms. O'Connell that the questions I'm asking are within the scope of the study. They're about informing our understanding of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'm sorry, Mr. Genuis. I'll defer to the clerk as to whether or not it's in the scope—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I just wanted to speak to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

—and then I'll respond quickly. I'll ask for the indulgence of the committee as I confer with the clerk for one minute. Thank you.

We're going to rule that it is, indeed, within the scope. Mr. Genuis is, indeed, speaking to the activities of McKinsey.

With regard to your point of order, Mr. Genuis, I will say that the witness is providing an answer. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer to you is your opinion, but he is not in any way disrupting the activities of the committee and he is responding to your questions.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I suppose, fundamentally, it's up to the public.

Mr. Pickersgill, I want to also ask about your relationship with the government's advisory council on economic growth. What role did you play supporting the work of that council?

[Andrew Pickersgill]

When the advisory council on economic growth was stood up in 2016, it approached McKinsey to see if we'd provide pro bono support, and I helped lead that team and coordinate our expertise from around the world.