Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2006

[Gord Strathy]

I'd agree with that.

[Les Peate]

There is one organization. It seemed to be fairly short-lived, but at one time there was an organization called The Centre. I'm not even sure how effectively it's running now, but it was a joint National Defence and Veterans Affairs group. This was the place where you would go if you were, as I say, falling between the cracks; these people would handle it. From what we saw, they were doing it quite well.

Another thing that was happening was that when we were discovering chemical sensitivity, DND was supposed to be setting up five centres across Canada where they could test for chemical sensitivity. I have a feeling that fell by the wayside because nobody seemed to have known much about it. So chemical sensitivity obviously was being recognized, but perhaps it was not recognized enough.

Not only for ourselves, but also for our successors from the Gulf War and Afghanistan—because I'm sure they're going to be exposed to all sorts of horrible things we hadn't even thought of in Korea—there is definitely a need for some sort of ombudsman or centre, be it run by Veterans Affairs or National Defence, to test for chemical sensitivity. I know a number of people from the Gulf War, for instance, who are suffering from chemical sensitivity and have a heck of a job getting it recognized. It's simply something they didn't know about.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

In the example you used of Australia, who did the research to come up with the conclusions you cited?

[Les Peate]

These are the reports, incidentally. As you can see, quite a bit of work went into them. I believe they were done by Monash University on behalf of the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, but there was a university study team.

I must admit, the study was very thorough, much more so than.... We tried to get one done here, and one of the problems that came up was the difficulty of contacting all the Korean veterans. As I said, there are about 13,000 of them, and unless you're getting a pension, Veterans Affairs doesn't have any record of you. It's been an almost impossible job to go through DND records. The Australians managed to locate almost all of their surviving Korean War veterans and get this done. It's a fantastic study.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

In Australia they do have an ombudsman, so obviously that report was not done through the ombudsman's office.

[Les Peate]

No, this was done strictly by the Australians. We like the way the Australians treat their veterans. They probably don't need an ombudsman.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's why we're here today--to do better.

[Les Peate]

Possibly we do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

All of us have expressed it in our own way, so I'd like to add my own thanks for what you do on behalf of the Korean vets. Thanks to Mr. Strathy for coming to the Elliott Lake unit's special celebration in mid-October. Thank you for making that effort.

If one could sort of categorize--and this may be an oversimplification--battle injuries, there are the very physical injuries that come from bomb blasts, grenades, and rifle fire. There's the trauma that comes from the kind of warfare that affects the mind. Then there's the whole range of chemical-related injuries that you talked about quite a bit today, which appear to have been the worst legacy of the war in Korea.

However an ombudsman is ultimately defined and whatever the role is played by such a person, is there a need for a general war-chemical strategy? Whether it was in Korea or Gagetown, or whether it was a small incident in a peacekeeping mission, many chemicals have been used over the years and they have changed with time.

Does the Australian study talk about a chemical strategy to deal with veterans afflicted by one or several types of exposures? We know that these things can manifest months, years, or decades after the first exposure. So can you comment on whether an ombudsman could help with the development of a strategy or framework to make it easier for veterans, whether they are Korean War veterans or otherwise, to access and have a more sympathetic hearing?

[Gord Strathy]

Mr. Peate spoke of the centre that was supposedly being set up between DND and Veterans Affairs. It was going to have five locations across the country where you could go if you had a chemical problem. You would be tested and they would come up with some sort of finding on you.

If that had been initiated it would have been a great step forward, because what do you do with a person in British Columbia? Do you bring them to Ottawa if that's the only place where there's someone skilled enough to take care of them; or do you have someone in B.C., someone in the prairie provinces, someone in Ontario, and someone in the Atlantic?

If you had all those people, in effect you would be taking care of the problems. You wouldn't think of having an ombudsman, because you need to have more than one location. If you had an ombudsman he would either be constantly on the road or there wouldn't be people at those locations. So I think the original premise was that DND was going to have five places across the country.

The problem was, surprisingly enough, that there weren't five qualified people in all of Canada to man those centres. Maybe we haven't trained enough people in preventive medicine. You can't very well have a preventive medicine portfolio without having someone who is qualified.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Using the Australians as maybe our best example for this discussion, do they have a series of centres across the country? I presume it's much easier for a Korean vet to access supports in the Australian system than in what we have here in Canada.

[Les Peate]

Unfortunately, this is something I don't know about. We do a lot of correspondence with our counterparts in the Australian association, and all I can say is they're extremely satisfied generally with the service they're getting from their department for the problems. I can't go into specifics. I simply don't know the answer to that one.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hope my friend and colleague from Sydney, who has been a great spokesman for his constituents in this regard, will have a chance later to ask about his constituent Joyce Carter and the VIP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm sure he'll have a chance. We'll let him get that question in. Yes, we'll have the spot, I'm sure.

Mr. Epp, for five minutes.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you very much.

The discussion today has focused a great deal on health issues and pension related to that. Are there any other issues that you think the ombudsman should be addressing?

[Gord Strathy]

Mr. Peate mentioned the Korean War medal, which was given by the President of Korea to anyone who served in that theatre. I think probably the ombudsman could be someone who would go to Government House and say, “Don't you think this facade has gone on long enough?” This was a recognized medal, given by a recognized leader of the country at the time. Should it not be given now? The longer we wait to do that, the less value it will have, because we'll have fewer and fewer people to get it. I think we've been fighting for it, Les in particular, for years.

Each year I could superimpose the letter we get back from Government House, one on the other, and I'll bet there probably aren't two sentences different in the one we received twelve years ago and the one we received two months ago. They're the same letter. They just say no, we don't give foreign awards. I think you would make a lot of Korean veterans happy. New Zealand has the medal. Australia now has the medal. The United States has the medal. Canada doesn't have the medal. So that would be something that would make a lot of people very happy.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Do any other issues come to mind?

[Les Peate]

Recognition, as I mentioned, is a problem. I don't think we can really complain too much. Certainly there's probably more appreciation of the Korean War now, particularly among the younger people, than there was 10 or 20 years ago. We had our fiftieth anniversary. We've been recognized by Veterans Affairs.

One little thing that irks me is the fact that although I spent 18 months in Korea getting shot at, I am not a veteran. The reason I'm not a veteran is this. If I had served in World War I or World War II, I would have been a veteran; however, because I served in the British army I'm not--at least, theoretically. I'm actually a veteran by virtue of my service with the Canadian army in later years, when I saw how much you were getting paid. I think recognition and our medical problems have been our biggest concerns.

Again, the international situation is really beyond the concern of this committee. We are of course committed to support South Korea in maintaining its independence, but we can hardly interfere in international affairs.

Thank you, sir.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

On another follow-up question, perhaps I've missed it, but are you proposing that there be an ombudsman to deal with Korean veterans exclusively, or that this be an ombudsman who deals with the entire military, of which the Korean veterans would be a part?

[Les Peate]

I would say definitely the entire military needs one, and we would be a part. Obviously, he would have a much bigger job if he deals with all the military, but it wouldn't be fair if we had one and the Gulf War people didn't, the Afghanistan veterans didn't, and even the World War II veterans didn't--and as far as that goes, if even the peacetime veterans didn't.

You may recall that you're just as dead if a truck rolls over you in Wainwright, Alberta, as if somebody shoots you in Kabul. I think an ombudsman should definitely serve all veterans. It would mean that he would require, of course, a much bigger staff, but nevertheless I think there should be an ombudsman for all veterans, not forgetting the fact that there are overlapping cases in some instances.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now to Mr. Stoffer, who I think was chomping at the bit earlier.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

These fine gentlemen mentioned superimposing letters. Would it be possible to get copies of those letters sent to our committee at your earliest convenience?

[Les Peate]

The letters that we received from Government House chancery?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes.