Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2006

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

If he said no, that settles the matter. I'm going home.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We'll start again, Monsieur Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

My first question, Mr. Hoppe, is this: are you in favour of there being an ombudsman?

[Tom Hoppe]

Yes, we are for an ombudsman.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Would you like the ombudsman to report to the House of Commons or to the minister? That's my second question.

[Tom Hoppe]

I don't have a legal background, but I've looked at the testimony that's been presented through this committee, and I would say there are two views.

In the best of all worlds, it would be great if they had the power and the mandate to report to Parliament, but it's going to take a long time. If we look right now at the DND model of today, not the model of nine years ago but the one today, it's working well reporting to the minister.

From a practical point of view, the other issue we could see coming out of this is how it will be addressed when the House rises or a committee is not available and something happens during that time period, whereas a minister can be contacted at all times.

As an organization, we want to see something that's effective and will work. As far as we've seen, the DND ombudsman seems to work quite well. We would support such a model, but it'd be nice to have it legislated.

[Larry Gollner]

Mr. Chairman, one of our concerns is that we've been told—I don't know if it's true, and you gentlemen can tell me otherwise—that to get Government of Canada approval for an ombudsman, it would take probably up to five years, and that's if everything works well. In that time, using Veterans Affairs' numbers, we would have 150,000 fewer veterans, because they would die in the interval. We're losing veterans at the rate of 2,500 a month.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Going back to my second question, if the ombudsman reported to the House of Commons, that would be like for the Auditor General. She receives specific mandates to solve problems, and she doesn't have to come back to the House every week to request permission. She has a clear and specific mandate. However, if there's a new minister, he may change ombudsmen if the incumbent doesn't suit him. That's the important aspect of my question.

[Tom Hoppe]

I'll try to answer that the best I can from my limited knowledge.

I think an ombudsman reporting to the minister has other avenues if the minister doesn't agree with the ombudsman's direction. I think we've seen that with the DND ombudsman where you can go public. I think that's why maybe it would be better to have a legislated ombudsman who can report to the minister, versus a mandated one, but I'm not an expert in that field.

[Larry Gollner]

I think that now that we have a standing committee in the House on veterans affairs, somehow this committee has to have a part to play in the ombudsman's role too. This committee can call witnesses. And if it hears through the media, or not necessarily through the media but through its channels, that the ombudsman of veterans affairs is being forestalled or stonewalled, then he can be called before this committee and be required to report. That might provide us with another way around. But whatever we do, now that we've got a standing committee on veterans affairs in the House, thank heaven, we might as well put you gentlemen to work.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Do you want to start over there?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Gollner, I believe it was you who said that it would take five years to create an ombudsman position. I'd like to know where you got that information.

[Tom Hoppe]

Did you get that?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

He asked where you got the information that it takes five years to get an ombudsman.

[Larry Gollner]

From Veterans Affairs, the assistant deputy minister, Keith Hillier, who is the project manager handling the veterans ombudsman and bill of rights portfolios.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In that case, you're suggesting that Keith Hillier is opposed to the ombudsman idea. I can't conceive that that'll take five years, when, all of us around this table, after hearing you, will be making a report and exercising pressure for that position to be created. If we members don't have any more power than that, let's change jobs.

[Larry Gollner]

I didn't hear that, but I understand it.

[Tom Hoppe]

He was just saying--correct me if I'm wrong--that you were implying that Keith Hillier doesn't want an ombudsman.

[Larry Gollner]

I understood very well. I think that within any bureaucratic structure, there's hesitancy to put a form of watchdog or overseer in place, particularly one who doesn't necessarily account to someone else in the structure. That probably causes some unease. As we know in the Canadian Forces, for Mr. Marin, it took a fair number of years of hard work before he convinced the department that it was in their best interests to cooperate and make the ombudsman's office work. That ground has been passed now. We can take and build on what he's done in the past. It's the same thing with Mr. Côté, who was here a couple of weeks ago.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I sincerely think that, if we can't have the idea of creating an ombudsman position adopted before next summer, then we're doing a bad job, unless there's an election very soon.

We simply have to see what's going on in Quebec, where there is the Ombudsman, in Ontario where there's the Ontario ombudsman, in New Brunswick and in British Columbia. There are ombudsmen all across Canada. The banks have their ombudsmen. Don't tell me we have to start over and work for five years in order to find ourselves a super good god. There are laws, and it would be enough to amend them a little to adapt them to the federal government.

I don't understand. I'm going to phone my friend Keith to ask him why he told us five years, because I completely disagree with him. I conclude that Keith doesn't want an ombudsman.

Furthermore — we've said enough about ombudsmen — you complain that you're having trouble being heard by the Department of Veterans Affairs. Wouldn't there be some way to merge your 53 existing veterans associations and to form perhaps one or two, and to have two spokespersons? Right now, there are 53 veterans associations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Monsieur Perron.

Mr. Hoppe.

[Tom Hoppe]

That would be great. I'd like to see that, I really would. But the problem in the veterans associations is everybody protects their era of operation. So Bosnia was different from Afghanistan, and Korea is different from this, and you have these splinter groups and you have a lot of egos. Then you have people who have different agendas. It's a huge issue, and an ombudsman can play a role in that too. Because what ends up happening is the department is allowed to choose who supports its agenda, and that's an issue as well. The ombudsman could play a role in that to make sure everybody is treated equally and fairly and everybody is heard.

I go back to the earlier statement that the department is going to have to start looking at which organizations are representing veterans and that information from those organizations can properly develop policy to help veterans. That's something they're going to have to look at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Now on to Mr. Stoffer with the NDP, for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, first of all, thank you for your service and then thank you for being here today.

I'm concerned when you say a gag order was placed on you. I'm wondering if any documents indicate that, that you can share with the committee at a later date.

[Tom Hoppe]

One document that was entered in June from the Ontario Legion Command stated they were not involved in the consultation process in the new Veterans Charter. That was one document that would lead to that.