Veterans Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will know that as soon as the translation cuts off, my seven minutes are up. You have an incredible little system there.

[A voice]

It's five minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Five minutes. I see.

I had the great privilege of touring the Veterans Affairs building in Kirkland Lake and meeting the staff. They do excellent work; they are dedicated. They do whatever they can there. They see themselves as advocates for the veterans.

What I'm interested in, though, is that the nature of the work is starting to change dramatically as we start to have a young generation of veterans, with very different issues from the ones the widows have, the pensions. We're seeing a greater need now to deal with the new kinds of cases, and that will put a strain on the department.

What allocation of resources do you have to ensure this transition from the period when we were looking at basically our World War II and Korean War veterans to now, where people are coming back from the field with--as we talked about--stress, other related injuries, and other needs?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Angus. That rather fits in with one of the other questions I've had here this afternoon.

The truth is, that's one of the reasons the government moved to a new Veterans Charter. As you well know, we stood in the House and supported it. I think there was unanimous agreement and all-party support in the House of Commons, with virtually no debate.

It is something the department had worked on for a number of years, and it was really in response to the very question you're raising. There had been basically no adjustment to how Veterans Affairs did business from World War II on. They could see the changing needs of modern-day veterans, if you will, and this was a response to them. Basically, the whole approach to how we treat veterans has changed as a result of this new charter.

The new charter, as you well know, is supported by all veterans organizations in Canada and by all parties in the House of Commons, including your own. That's really the point of the new charter: recognizing the new-age veteran.

In a nutshell, the old system really wasn't achieving what it should with our new modern-age veterans, in that those who qualified would get a pension, then be kicked out the door and be forgotten. I hate to make it that short and be that blunt, but it really wasn't serving them or their families well. The average age of these veterans coming out was and is today 36 years of age, and that small pension basically, in many cases, to be very honest with you, kept them in perpetual poverty. There was no thought to retraining them, no rehabilitation. The only way they qualified for any programs was if they had a disability.

For all of those reasons, we basically changed how we deal with the new force veterans. Part of it, of course, is a recognition of some of the differences in the new veterans coming in, and a big emphasis on mental health—there's no question about that—and rehabilitation.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I wanted to ask about that, because I wanted to follow up on my colleague's question about women veterans. I am somewhat younger than you, but I think—

[An hon. member]

I wouldn't say that, but good-looking.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

And much better-looking, yes. But I remember in my own community and extended family the impacts of the war, of people who came home and lived much shortened lives. At the time, we didn't know. We look back and we see obviously the huge impact that stress injuries had. But we were dealing with basically male soldiers of a certain age group, and we can see a pattern.

We're in an entirely new context now, with women who are in active combat. We have no idea, really, how they will respond in terms of stress injuries, mental stress problems. They're also the family caregivers at home, so there's a whole new realm that we're dealing with.

How much is the government taking this as a priority, in terms of speaking with the U.S. military about the Iraq veterans who are coming back who are women and of ensuring that we have special operational stress clinics to deal with the issues that women veterans are going to be coming back with? We are really moving into new territory.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I appreciate where you're coming from, and it fits in with one of the earlier questions.

Each client, whether a man or a woman, is given what we call “case management”. The programs are actually designed with each individual soldier, or in this case veteran, in mind. We're very sensitive to the needs of women veterans and the individual needs of male veterans—men and women. There is a difference. Among the professionals who deal with our veterans, that is recognized, and the programs are adjusted according to the needs of the individual.

I have every confidence that the men and women who operate these clinics are very professional and have a very professional approach. I believe that with close examination, Mr. Angus, you'd agree that the programs are very sensitive to the needs of our female veterans and very sensitive to the needs of our male veterans, both men and women. The beauty of the system we have is that cases are very individually managed.

I'm not saying you're new to the committee, but I think those who examine that question closely would agree with me that we're very sensitive to the needs of the female veterans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You've done very well. It's six minutes and five seconds, so you've exceeded the five.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Actually, he did very well. Six minutes and five seconds, and I got only two questions. But he's the minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Well, that's the way these things work.

All right, now we're over to the Conservative Party of Canada, Mrs. Hinton, for seven minutes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chairman.

Welcome to the committee, Minister. I'm going to do something unusual and ask you questions regarding the estimates, which is what you're here for.

I'll give you an opportunity to answer a few questions. In the most recent budget it was announced that the veterans independence program will be expanded. Can you please elaborate on this? How many more widows and caretakers will now be able to take advantage of this program, and why was it essential to improve upon and expand this program?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

One of the things we are really focused on is the aging veterans. Again, other members have mentioned the needs of the aging veterans.

We're keeping in mind how we deliver programs to that group of veterans, and spouses--partners who have waited so long. As I said in my opening remarks, we've identified the ones who needed it the most and who have waited the longest.

The $292 million we've budgeted for that new group will bring 12,000 to 15,000 new entrants into the program. It allows them to remain at home longer. It takes care of some of their basic needs, maintenance of their home and so on. I guess it's the same thing all of us have to deal with as we age.

There's that little bit of help to those who need it the most and who have waited the longest. The number comes down to somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000 people who will become part of a program they were left out of in the past.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

With respect to the operational stress injury clinics, we have all recognized for many, many years that there weren't enough of them and that they needed to expand, so I'm very pleased to see what has happened.

I wonder if you'd like to elaborate a bit on the number of different provinces that are actually going to have an OSI clinic now. Rather than having the veteran go to a clinic...it will at least be in his or her own home province.

Could you give us an example of what they're going to be dealing with, what kind of professional treatment will be there, and a bit about the reasoning behind the choice of some of the areas that have been selected?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

While I'm answering the first part of the question, Ms. Hinton, I'll ask my officials to make sure I'm accurate on the number of new locations and existing locations, so people can get a sense of how we've strategically located those across the country. While I'm talking, I'm sure they'll be busy coming up with those place names.

We just recently opened up a new one in Fredericton, New Brunswick. Of course, one of the reasons for that is our big military presence in Gagetown, CFB Gagetown, a huge military presence. In fact I believe it's the biggest geographical training area in the Commonwealth nations and one we're very proud of. We've identified those areas where there's a huge community of veterans and active service members as well. So Fredericton is one of those places we've chosen.

And this is what we'll have across the country when we've finished. Obviously in Montreal St. Anne's is basically our crown jewel in terms of OSI and training and new methods and treatment, and obviously a lot of work is going on in conjunction with McGill University. We have one in Quebec City as well and one in London, Ontario. We just made announcements in Winnipeg and Calgary. Did we do one in Edmonton as well?

[A voice]

Edmonton and Vancouver.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Yes, those are some of the examples across the country. So we're locating them strategically in areas, and staffing them with professional psychologists and psychiatrists who really can do the job that's necessary.

The good news in this—and officials have told me this—is that we've had no trouble recruiting those professionals to do the job. This is good news because that's one of the things I think we were worried about, but they tell me we've had no trouble recruiting the professionals to do the job.

One of the concerns I had in terms of the one in Fredericton.... It's a great facility and they're very nondescript, so the stigma that's attached to any of this.... We don't mind talking about a broken leg or a broken arm, but when your spirit is broken or you're suffering from operational stress injury, as I say, we often suffer in silence and always there's a stigma attached to any sort of mental illness or addiction problem. So these are sort of walk-in clinics that are, as I say, very nondescript. You can walk in. Some of them are located on the second storey of a shopping mall, for example. So you can go in with some level of comfort and not have the embarrassment of having to walk into a clinic to seek the help you're really seeking. There shouldn't be any stigma attached to it, but unfortunately we're still living in a society where all of us, even in civilian society, suffer in silence, don't we.

So the good news is that we have staffed those professionally across the country, and in conjunction with the peer group support it's working well. Actually, it was less than a year ago that we announced the one in Fredericton, New Brunswick, and I was told by one of the people who operate the centre in Fredericton that the biggest delay in the opening there was actually getting skilled tradesmen to build the facility, to renovate the facility it's being held in, which is sort of symptomatic of what's happening in other parts of the country in terms of skilled tradesmen.

We'll have to have the Minister of Immigration in to talk about how we're dealing with that at her level. But the truth is that was really the only impediment to getting that up and running. It was only a little later than we anticipated. I think we were hoping we'd have it up and running three or four months ago, but it is open now. And it's the same across the country. We're expecting all those that we've announced. The doubling will be completed in early 2009.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm very pleased to hear you have not had much difficulty recruiting people, because a number of the witnesses who appeared in front of this committee expressed the concern that there is such a lack of professionals in terms of psychologists and medical personnel across the country, just for normal, everyday people, that it might be an issue with the military.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I'm pleased to announce it hasn't been an issue with Veterans Affairs, and the deputy is nodding in agreement, which is always a good sign that I'm right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go back over to the Liberal Party of Canada and Mr. Russell for five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister, and certainly to your other guests as well.

Just to start off, I had a great opportunity to spend some time with you and some of my other colleagues on the 90th anniversary of Beaumont-Hamel, in France, a couple of summers ago. It was indeed, as your words reflect in your address, a very moving experience and one that will never be forgotten for anybody who attends such events. It was remarkable. I'm glad I got to share in some of those acts of remembrance during that particular time.

I want to change the focus a bit. I come from a northern and remote area. Some people classify it as rural. A disproportionate number of people who serve in the armed forces, at least currently, and I believe historically, come from areas that could be classified as rural or northern or remote, at least on a population basis. I believe a veteran should have the opportunity to go back home and live in dignity and live with certain services that they require.

I note that much of the focus, and for good reason, as well, is in urban areas where there are large population centres, where there are large numbers of veterans who are either living in the cities or in urban areas, or who are in close proximity. But we can't forget those veterans who choose to live in rural areas. In our report we tried to concentrate somewhat on that.

I'm just wondering what the department's vision is for delivering services and for enhancing services in rural and northern areas in Canada. In particular, I come from Labrador, where, population-wise, there's a high number of people serving currently and there have been a number of people who served in the past. We've had testimony that there's not even a bed available to a veteran. There are no Veterans Affairs personnel within my riding, and very few within the province generally. There's such a lack of services in some of these areas.

What is the vision for enhancing VA services in rural and northern Canada?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Russell, it is a concern, and I'm comforted by what we're doing. It goes back to the questions on the OSI clinics, as well, in terms of the outreach and how we reach some of these rural areas. But we do have caseworkers on the ground.

I remember one of the issues.... You're always preparing, as a minister, for unexpected questions in question period. There was a question about some four-wheel-drive vehicles we bought, and maybe you could argue that they're not green because they are four-wheel-drives. But recognizing the uniqueness of some of the areas where our veterans do live, these men and women who serve them have to have vehicles to get to them. These caseworkers obviously go out of their way to get to them.

So we do have people on the ground in all of these areas. Some of them are remote. You're right that there is a disproportion--if that's the way to say it--of rural people who enlisted in World War I, World War II, and Korea. I'm not sure how the statistics play out today, but you are right, many of them are still living in these remote areas, so we are doing that. We have men and women on the ground. We do also have contracts with some of the veterans organizations that have service people on the ground as well, who deal with our clients, in addition to our caseworkers.

On top of that, one of the questions that we had in terms of the OSI was how do we reach out, but we also do teleconferencing. It is somewhat ironic that when you are setting up these OSI clinics, you could argue why is it in Fredericton, New Brunswick, versus some other smaller area, but it's recruiting the professionals to staff these that is always the problem, as you well know. That is one of the difficulties that rural Canada experiences. But we do have men and women on the ground, and we have this program support for them.

We make every effort to try to keep a lot of these veterans at home with our VIP program, with professional people who will come to their homes to provide those services to them so they can live with a relative degree of comfort. And we make every opportunity to get them into a long-term-care bed, if necessary. That is something that most veterans try to avoid. In fact the VIP program is pretty successful in keeping them home.

Again, at the end of the day, the more veterans who can stay at home because of the services that we provide on the ground, the more money the Government of Canada saves, and the veterans are much happier. But it's all about providing that service on the ground to them, and I think we're doing a pretty good job in the rural parts of Canada.

If you can identify areas in your riding.... And I know that we have corresponded on some of those problems. As a member of Parliament, you never have any difficulty writing to me or crossing the floor to talk about it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That is not on a permanent basis, just for a chat. We're prepared to take a look at them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go over to

Mr. Gaudet, from the Bloc Québécois, has five minutes.