Veterans Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

You're talking to the right person.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Hopefully you can write the cheque this evening.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

You're right that in many of these facilities across the country we do exactly that. The request comes forward. There's a measurement of what the need might be in that veteran's community, and if the need is there it goes forward. I don't like the term “go forward”, but everyone's using it these days, and it seems to work. But as we go forward, if the need is there we respond favourably in most cases to that.

We have to be very careful in this business. You never say yes until it's been done, but the fact is that's exactly how it usually plays out. There's a need in a particular community. Newfoundland--Labrador is building the facility. We usually make every effort, if the need is there, to make sure we have some beds set aside for our veterans.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I thank you for that. I'm sure you will be getting a formal request, if this is not one already.

Where a veteran locates is sometimes dependent upon the existing services. So when you ask if the need is there, the need is there if we have people serving in the military now. Do you see where I'm going with this? The need is there if we've had people serving in the military who already reside in Labrador, for example. Because if there wasn't an existing bed...and I know that's not the long-term solution either. We like to keep people mobile from the cradle to the grave, so to speak. But when a bed is available and a tangible service is available, people have a greater propensity to go back to the rural and remote locations because they know that assistance is there.

So there might not be a veteran who needs that bed right now, but I can guarantee you that with the number of service people we have, and those who have already served, we will need that bed. We've seen in the past where we could have used it. So I'll make the case for need on that basis.

That's the whole argument I'm getting at when we come to the mobility of a veteran. The more services we have--even prospective services sometimes--that will determine where they sort of spend the rest of their days.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Yes, there's nothing I can really disagree with there. I think you're right. That's one of the things we attempt to do. We have a number of community beds and contract beds in Newfoundland, as we do in all the provinces.

We all have our own individual cases. We're talking here in this room about ombudsmen, but I often say the veterans' greatest ombudsmen are individual members of Parliament. I don't think there's any other department of government that has as much correspondence with individual members of Parliament as Veterans Affairs, because everyone has veterans. As I said, it's one of the things we all agree on, the treatment of our veterans. We'll disagree on certain things, because we're all politicians, but they truly do unite us. We want the best for them. Those families will not hesitate to contact an individual member of Parliament to come to their defence because you'll walk a letter across to me, as all members do and will always do regardless of who the minister is.

I get those kinds of letters too. This is interesting, Mr. Anders, because I had a veteran's family, a woman I went to school with and her dad now in his eighties, and he's in a hospital and has to go into a veteran's bed. They want to keep him as close to home as they possibly can. There's a bed available now in another community, but they don't want to go there for obvious reasons, because it means his wife, who is also in her eighties, will not be able to travel that 20 or 30 miles. So we're hoping against hope that a bed becomes available, which winds up being in my home community, so he can in fact go to that particular bed. That's really the point you're making: making every effort, so these veterans can have as much comfort and be as close to home as possible. That means the veteran's wife can stay in her home town.

I often say that. In Saint John, New Brunswick, we have a 102-year-old veteran, a woman, and I grew up in the presence of this woman in my community. Most of them do want to stay as close to home as they possibly can in their closing days, because of friends and relatives and all the comradeship and the social activities that come with this. They still want to be close to family and friends, so we make every effort to do that.

We'll see what we can do in your particular case. Hopefully, it will help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

I know Mr. St. Denis was indicating he would like to split time. Unfortunately, there's nothing to split. Seven minutes have been taken, so we're going to put Mr. St. Denis' name down for later on.

Now it's back to the Conservative Party of Canada and Mrs. Hinton for five minutes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On a committee, you get to know people rather well, so I'm sure Todd will appreciate my comment. Goose Bay was actually going to be closed down under the previous government, so you should be very grateful that it hasn't closed down and has the spaces—

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Don't start, Betty.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Anyway, those are the facts.

Mr. Minister, I'm going to ask you a very general question, very general. Which of the programs offered by the department are the most utilized?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I'm getting all the tough questions from my own party.

For the most utilized, I'm going to have to search my brain, because there's such a wide range of services, and they're all utilized. I suppose you could say which one costs the department the most money, if you will, but...

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I want the most popular. What's used the most?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Sorry, I didn't hear that, Betty.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

More along the lines of what's the most popular, I suppose would be a good way to phrase it. Which one is used the most?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I'm perplexed in terms of how to answer that. It sounds like a really easy question, but.... The way it's broken down, if you take a look at it.... I'll answer it this way, and if you're not satisfied, I'll go back at it.

There's about $2.2 billion a year that goes out of Veterans Affairs for pensions, awards, allowances, and disabilities. There's $1.7 billion for disability pensions alone, traditional disability pension payments. There's $1.2 billion for health care and re-establishment of benefits and services; $266 million for home care and other home support services; $383 million for long-term care and nursing home care, including VIP in communities.

The list keeps going on and on and on. I don't want to bore you. We can make sure you get provided with that detail, with some of those copies. The list is pretty long in terms of benefits and expenditures. We do about $51 million a year for remembrance-type services. We have remembrance outreach programs totalling about $14 million. That's sort of a thumbnail sketch of where those moneys go.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not trying to trip you up on any of these things; it was simply a curiosity question.

The other thing I have always admired is the fact that we are including young people in these visits to war memorials and to these very important services. Some of the programs that have been happening where, for example, a student chooses a specific soldier, learns all about the background on that soldier and makes a presentation are incredibly moving.

I noticed a specific direction to start to add more students to this. Is this something you'd like to see followed up? Do you want to pursue that avenue and bring in more students and perhaps fewer bureaucrats when we go on these kinds of missions? No offence meant to bureaucrats.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That is such an important part of what Veterans Affairs does--the remembrance side of it. I'm not sure whether I invented this line or not, but I use it a lot. I often say the greatest gift we can give a veteran is the gift of remembrance. And as I often say in a speech--and I'm not sure whether I invented this line or somebody else did--freedom is never free.

We sometimes forget that we're living in truly the best country in the world. And why? It's because of the men and women who were prepared to stand up for freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. Those are the men and women we honour. We cherish their service, so we can't forget what they have done.

In all fairness, I think Veterans Affairs, in the last 10 to 15 years, is doing a lot better job in connecting with schools and others than they did a number of years ago. We're doing a better job now in realizing that we can't forget the sacrifice of these people and what they have done for us. That is playing out, and more people now attend remembrance ceremonies than ever before.

I think it's the realization, Betty--and excuse me for using your first name again, but we see each other so much, all of us in this room, on an informal basis, I guess we can't get away from it--that we have about 200,000 what we call “traditional veterans”, World War II veterans, left. And we're losing about 20,000 a year.

I think we realize now that these people are, in a sense, a national treasure. Those are the men and women who put themselves in harm's way for what we take for granted in the House of Commons when we can get up and debate things freely, and for all the things we enjoy as Canadians. Most of them are probably in the last ten years of their life. Today, as Peter Stoffer often mentions, there will be 80 veterans who pass away. Some of them will be in your community; some will be in mine.

I think it's in all of us that we do our very best to honour them, and I think we're doing a lot better job than we've ever done. I think part of it is the troubled world we're living in. We're very blessed, as a nation, and now we're realizing these are the men and women who made it possible for us to live in the best country in the world.

One of the most rewarding things I have done since being minister--it's a very small thing, and it was not a great cost to the Government of Canada, other than sending me and a couple of others to Spokane, Washington, which was supported by everyone here, every member of Parliament--was when we returned the citizenship to Canada's oldest veteran, Mr. Babcock. We have one remaining World War I veteran. He lost his Canadian citizenship--to be very accurate, I'd say British citizenship--through no fault of his own, because of the circumstances he was caught in.

It was one small thing. We restored that citizenship to him. It's one of the very few things in government we can do that really doesn't cost anything. It's an appreciation for what he did--that generation, Canada's greatest generation--for our country.

I think we're realizing that we have just one of these people left. There's only one left. He's 108 years of age. When he passes away, that will be the last of his generation.

Most of us in this room are old enough now that we have mothers and fathers who are still at that age, and for some of you who are younger than I am, grandparents. We have a deep appreciation for what they have done. I think that is somehow etched more firmly in our minds, our psyche, as Canadians than it ever has been in the past. That's basically because of the troubled world we're living in.

So when you go to these ceremonies and see these young people who go out of their way, and the teachers and educators who are really focusing on what we should be doing for our veterans, that's actually playing out on the main street of every community.

And there are communities that apply for restoration of their monuments. We have a little program, where we'll match up to $25,000 from the community to help restore their monuments.

There's a big interest in those types of programs. Citizens who will raise money in schools to send children over to Vimy Ridge.... I mean, how many children did we have go over? We had a huge contingent of young people actually go to Vimy Ridge, because they raised their own funds to go.

It is quite heartwarming when you see those types of things happening. That remembrance part of what we do is a really important part of what Veteran's Affairs does. The other night I was watching what was going on down in Washington, as it was their Memorial Day. I think the entire free world is more aware of what is going on than it used to be. I think probably we've learned some lessons from some of those European nations. Some of the friends and neighbours close to us have done a pretty good job over the years. But I think we're doing a better job than any of them, to be very honest with you.

The response we get to some of what we're doing, when we're going across the country, has been really quite rewarding. I have to say that I have the best job in government. So we'll just keep doing it together, as I say, and collectively do the best we possibly can for those men and women.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. St. Denis, with the Liberals, for five minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Some of us had the opportunity to visit with the new veterans ombudsman yesterday when he did an update. We know that Mr. Stogran started the process some time ago to establish his office. He didn't get into specific numbers, at least in the time I was there. He may have with others. I think it would be a fair assumption that he is going to be very busy. His office will be very, very busy, because as you suggested in your notes, this is something that veterans have been looking forward to for quite some time. So realistic or not, there will be huge expectations that his office--and he did allude to this in his remarks--can do miracles. Of course, he won't be able to. That said, there will be many cases, and whether they have merit or not, they will still require considerable human resources to vet them and to at least say to an applicant that this is not a situation we can deal with. They will still require processing.

Are you satisfied, Minister, that the budget allocated for that position and the office is sufficient, especially, as has been raised by a number of members, including my colleague, Ms. Guarnieri, with the great number, sadly, of new OSI cases we can expect in the years ahead? I think they will trigger a great proportion of the inquiries. Are you satisfied? We can disagree--we'll put it aside for this discussion--about whether the ombudsman should report to the minister or to Parliament, but that aside, are the resources there for the future?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Within the ombudsman's office, with the structure we have and the resources he has--as the deputy has confirmed, there are about 45 staff--I think we have set aside, Mr. St. Denis, the resources for him to do his job.

The other thing, of course, is that within Veterans Affairs not everything will be dealt with, as you well know--I think you alluded to that--by the ombudsman, because the appeals process and internal reviews will be ongoing as well. Even today we are dealing with some internal matters within the department that we recognized probably long before the veterans ombudsman ever heard about them. So we have those checks and balances within the system today to make sure that our men and women are doing the job and that the process is unfolding as it should.

He'll focus on some of those systemic problems and on making sure that the bill of rights is honoured and so on and so forth. But I don't want everyone to be led to believe that it will only be him doing that. All of us at this table are doing part of what he'll be doing in a very formal way: recognizing a difficulty, responding to a concern you have as an individual member of Parliament, and making the necessary changes within the department. That's what you people do very well, and you never hesitate to come to see me when you believe it can be done better. So that's going to be ongoing.

The short answer is that I really believe we have the resources necessary for him to do his job. But guess what. If we don't, we'll hear about that too, won't we? We'll be prepared to respond to that if the case proves to be that he doesn't. But I think from what I see, I'm pretty satisfied, and I think he is, as well.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

And I might say, Mr. Chairman, before I finish with Mr. St. Denis, that I'm really impressed with some of the people who have gone internally from within the department over to work with him. I mean, these are really qualified people who I think even former ministers would agree are exceptional people within Veterans Affairs who really understand the system. I think he's got a lot of talent there with him that really will allow him to do a good job in his role as ombudsman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Now we're going over to the Conservative Party of Canada and Mr. Sweet for five minutes. That being said, Mr. Sweet, the committee wraps up in three minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I just have one question. That's it.

You've mentioned a number of times that we're all united around veterans, and one of the issues that I think unites us in that environment for veterans is the desecration of monuments or the lack of dignity and respect for monuments everywhere across the country, but particularly this one here, our National War Memorial.

Certainly we cannot prevent vandalism everywhere across the country, but I know it's a concern for all of us, because the memorial here stands for and commemorates everything we've discussed here today, along with the men and women who served.

I just want to ask if the department is considering looking at new measures for signage to identify exactly what it is, so when people are tourists they don't use the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as a bench, and also for security for those people who would use less than dignified behaviour around it.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

It's troubling to all of us when we see that happening, and I do know many members have suggested some of the things that could be done to improve security, and some of those things actually have been done. One of them is adding ceremonial guards during the summer months, when it's much easier. I shouldn't say this, because I don't know for sure, but I think generally speaking most vandalism occurs in the summer months, when it's easier to be outside, than in the middle of January, if you're going to misbehave.

We also have commissionaires now who patrol the site from May to November, during the busy months when folks are out on the streets celebrating more than they should.

Also, I believe surveillance cameras have been installed.

I didn't see this in any of my briefing notes, but I do know that one of the things that.... My wife has a business, and I remember the RCMP telling her that one of the best things you can do is have proper lighting. I can't tell you whether we have improved the lighting there or not, but if it's a well-lit area where it's pretty obvious what somebody is doing and it has cameras, those things are deterrents.

But you're right. How do you legislate good behaviour? It's something most of us find offensive when we hear of something like that happening, and it does occur in so many public places. So I guess vigilance is part of it, and taking as many precautions as we can, but you can't legislate against.... What's the term we often use? I guess they say you can't legislate against stupidity and you can't legislate against ignorance. But those who do this violate the sensitivity of just about every Canadian, so we have to do the very best we can to stop that sort of thing from happening.

Thank you.