Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

No, I mean the other seven individuals.

[Jenifer Migneault]

They are still waiting. I met them after I did all my husband's papers, and then friends came along, and friends of friends. That's how they got to know me. I met them only in July, August, September, and October.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So it's the last two or three months you've been working--

[Jenifer Migneault]

And that's not enough waiting.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's fair enough. Yes, you have to go through the process. There is a certain amount of review required, in fairness to the department.

I have one final question. Following up on Ms. Hinton's comments regarding working with the administration to try to simplify the process, how do you see that we could improve the application process, to simplify it?

[Jenifer Migneault]

That is a good question.

I am going to tell you what I think about that, because, as I was saying, I certainly understand that these forms have to be filled in, and that conclusive data is required in order for the officials to make a decision.

So people are asked to fill in forms, to comment on their quality of life, to talk about the difficulties they are having such as post-traumatic stress disorder, and they are asked for medical expertise.

I do understand that it is important that people mention the restrictions they face as a result of their condition. Indeed, medical expertise can show that people have limitations in particular areas. For example, in everyday life, if my husband tells you that he cannot be in a crowd, medical expertise can prove that or demonstrate it. However, the fact that he can never attend his children's musical presentations, for example, gives some idea about his quality of life, that he feels strongly about mentioning.

So the idea is to simplify the processing and to lighten the questions to come up with a form that is better adapted to people's situations. In any questionnaire about quality of life the same five or six questions are asked—whether the person is dealing with post-traumatic disorder, lumbar problems or hearing difficulties. So when people are asked whether they can drive a vehicle, it becomes difficult to answer, because the back problem means that they cannot drive, but the post-traumatic stress disorder does not. In the case of some questions—and they are always the same ones—people are afraid of shooting themselves in the foot because there is nothing geared to their particular problem.

So the forms could be simplified and streamlined. Veterans Affairs Canada could, at the very least—and I come back to this once again—provide help in filling in all these forms.

I do not want to table the document I have been referring to, but it contains answers to the questions. People are asked to include photos to explain... I do not want to table the document, Mr. Chairman, first of all, because it is in French only, and second, it does contain private information. I just want to give you an idea of how much work I did for my husband for just one medical problem. The fact is that he has five medical problems, including post-traumatic stress disorder.

We have to look up what he did from a particular year to another year, to give his rank, his duties, and the year of his promotion. We are asked for a great deal of information. This requires a huge amount of research. We had to go through my husband's military reports page by page, as well as his medical records. Personally, I can do that, but not all spouses can.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I respect you for your strong character. The best is yet to come. All the best.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Cannan.

Now over to the Liberals—Mr. St. Denis, for five minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll also add my own thanks to both of you for being here and sharing your story. Hopefully, in having a chance to talk to us, it will be in some little way helpful. You're certainly being helpful to us in our deliberations.

Based on your testimony today, I will be asking my colleagues that when we do have the new ombudsman here, maybe as the invitation goes to the new ombudsman, we refer him to the testimony of today's meeting as an example of some of the things he will see as he begins his new mandate.

It may not be possible for him to comment on this testimony at his first visit to our committee. But I think at some point in time, maybe a second visit in the new year, once his office is set up, he could take this as a case study, as a real live study, and put his microscope on this case, which stretches over nine years, which stretches over an evolution. I'm sure the department has been trying to improve its processes. Let's just give them that benefit. He'll have a good example here of how things can wrong, so that the other families that you're dealing with and families across the country don't face this again.

Perhaps within your power, Mr. Chair, you could simply, when inviting him, refer him to this testimony. But if it needs a motion later on, I'd be pleased to put a motion to that effect.

As well, Ms. Migneault, would you give the ombudsman or his office permission to call you?

[Jenifer Migneault]

Absolutely.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So we have that on record: in advance of such a meeting with the ombudsman, he could talk to Jenifer and/or Claude, but Jenifer first, I would say.

Thank you for that.

We had Senator Dallaire before our committee in the spring. He has, by public admission, told Canadians that he also suffers from PTSD, or operational stress disorder, as they also call it now. He was very frank, as you both have been, about the challenges facing him, his suicidal tendencies and so on.

I think that of all the things you mentioned, we add stress when we put people through.... Everybody has to walk through the emergency door of a hospital. That isn't so stressful. You walk through the door, you register, you wait, and at some point you see a doctor. But we make the doorway very difficult for people in this situation, people with mental distress.

You refer to having somebody help you through the process, assigning somebody like an expediter or an aide, somebody who says, “I am going to see that Claude Rainville gets through that doorway.”

Speak a little bit about that, perhaps, and then I will let my time go to someone else. Speak about what it would have meant to you, to the others, to have had somebody hold your hand, in a way, through that process. You are an intelligent couple; Jenifer, you're capable. How many families are there in which there are literacy problems, in which there's so much anxiety that if they didn't have somebody holding their hands, they couldn't get through the door?

[Jenifer Migneault]

First of all, all the people we spoke to at the Department of Veterans Affairs were extremely understanding and kind. We have no complaints in that regard.

The person to whom you are referring would change everything completely. This could be someone we could call directly. We could leave the person a voice mail message, something that is very difficult to do at the moment. The person could get a copy of all the information regarding my husband—the psychiatric reports, documents from Ste. Anne's, all the applications and forms. The person would be responsible for distributing these documents and would ensure that all the services are coordinated. However, there is nothing of the sort at the moment.

At the moment, you have to contact an individual about pension applications and other related services that could be helpful to my husband. I think the fact that there is not an individual of the type you describe slows down the process to a dangerous extent. I say “dangerous”, but it is not a question of money, of paying mortgages or going on a trip. That is not what it is about. What my husband and I would like is for him to get the treatment he needs and to have the peace of mind he requires.

I would also like to mention that my husband does not intend to retire before age 65. He wants to rejoin the labour force. He can do that. He wants to do that, but he wants some balance to be available to him. At the moment, the shortage of services means that the entire treatment is necessarily called into question.

So it has to be possible for people to contact a particular individual. I can tell you that it is extremely stressful when we try to speak to the person in charge of our file. When we telephone the call centre in New Brunswick or wherever it is located, someone asks why we are calling. We say that it is for follow-up on our file. We're told that a message will be left and that we will be called back.

Just last week, a mistake was actually made. The message was given to the wrong individual. As a result, the message was left on November 21, and our call was only returned yesterday. If these people are on vacation, we're not aware of it. No one can answer our questions. We are really left to our own devices to follow up on our case, to ensure that they have all the documents they require. The proof is that we were waiting for the psychiatric report from Ste. Anne's, and yesterday, my husband simply called Ste. Anne's, and they faxed him the report. Tell me why the people at Veterans Affairs Canada cannot proceed more quickly, when we could get an answer within 12 hours?

So there needs to be someone coordinating all of the information, and that person needs to be aware of the client's situation and able to facilitate access to emergency services, as my husband requires at the moment. There are certainly ways of making the waiting time more bearable until the files have been processed, first in Charlottetown and then in Sherbrooke.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Your time has expired.

Now we'll go to the Conservative Party—to Mr. Shipley, for five minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Jenifer and Claude, I appreciate, as does everyone, your taking the time to come and being so personal with us in terms of what you have experienced and still are experiencing. That's important for us to hear again.

In June we did table a report on PTSD, as you know. This committee has studied and heard numerous witnesses. In many cases we continually, unfortunately, hear the stories that you have portrayed to us today. As was mentioned earlier, we had hosted a group of families so that they could talk to us as families. That was likely one of the most riveting events in terms of all the witnesses who had come before us. Usually they're the professionals. But I think that has been said.

With that, you're relaying some issues. I believe those have been part of...since I don't have the report in front of me. On those issues that you've relayed to us—the process, the communications barriers—I don't think there is a lack of compassion but a lack within the process, or barriers within the process, to communicate adequately.

As Ms. Hinton has indicated, we need to be doing things that are easy for people. I don't care what level of education you have or what your situation is; easy, simple communication is always the key to success within our families and within committees like this—everywhere.

Another thing that's been mentioned is that the ombudsman is in place. We're working on the VIP program now. That is really what we're trying to do. What can we do for our veterans so that we can encourage them, and to go beyond the encouragement, what can we do in terms of ways of keeping them in their home? It has many benefits. It has family benefits and it obviously has financial benefits, but it has social benefits beyond anything financial.

One of the things we heard from all the witnesses is that we continually come up against the lack of professional people out there, and we have it within our public system, with doctors, psychologists, and those professional people we need to help us in Veterans Affairs. I wouldn't mind hearing your comments, if you have some thoughts on how we could get some priority for veterans from those folks when we know that even in our public system we don't have enough to go around. So that's a bit of a concern also.

I was glad to hear you indicate—and you have continually said this, quite honestly—that you were treated well; it's just the process. So I think the message is strong. Unfortunately, in government, it seems to be the process that wrinkles things up. We're trying to simplify that.

To go back a bit, maybe you can help us on expansion of the process. You've talked about the forms, but I'm talking about especially the professional people. Do you have any ideas on how we could integrate and actually use the professional people? You're in the health system, so you might have some ideas.

[Jenifer Migneault]

To begin with, I'd like to tell you exactly what my role is. Indeed, I do work in the health care system. I'm a community organizer.

I help communities or community groups, which are in need, to improve their quality of life. I sit on mental health round tables. I don't want to speak out of turn because I'm not the director of my institution and I certainly don't want to speak on its behalf, but unfortunately, mental health really is the health care system's poor second cousin.

Secondly, shouldn't we be increasing awareness among psychology, psychiatry and mental health nursing students about these afflictions? Shouldn't we at least inform health care professionals of the existence of the Ste. Anne's Centre and establish partnerships? I think some partnerships do already exist. Take for example a doctor who is dealing with a troubled, potentially suicidal former serviceman. If the physician lacks the necessary resources in his community to adequately help such an individual, what can the Ste. Anne's Centre do?

I'm also wondering about access. Obviously, when it comes to getting health care, you always look in your immediate environment. The Ste. Anne's Centre is not accessible to all former military personnel, and this is unfortunate, but I know that there are other centres in Quebec and Canada.

So health care professionals at least need to be aware of that, so that as soon as a current or former member of the armed forces comes to see them, they will be able to help or at least refer them to those people who have the necessary expertise to be of assistance. You can't expect every health care professional to be able to help every person—and that's why there are heart institutes and the Sainte-Justine Hospital—but at least you should be able to refer people on. That alone would be helpful.

Had that occurred, Mr. Shipley, it probably would have changed what our lives became over all those years.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Now, over to Mr. Stoffer of the NDP, for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Of course, one of the concerns we always have is that when anybody in either opposition or government says they're going to do something, then you assume they're going to do it. I'm glad to see that the VIP has been discussed, because we have a letter here, dated June 28, 2005, to a widow of a veteran that said if they formed government they would immediately—and it used the word “immediately”—extend the VIP program to all Second World War and Korean War veterans regardless of the situation, and it hasn't happened yet.

That's an old story that we've sung and danced around for a while, but I feel in many cases that a lot of the folks with PTSD don't have much time; that PTSD will be with your husband, from my understanding, for the rest of his life; and that PTSD also affects the spouse. We've heard that before. But the concern we also express is that PTSD can be transferred from the individual who has it, not only to the spouse, but to the children as well. So this is a generational problem. And we pray it never happens, but your oldest may, unfortunately, without knowing it, then pass it on to his/her kids.

One of the problems we have, of course, is that as the Government of Canada tries to solve the situation of dealing with the individual and the spouse with PTSD, the transferring, unknowingly, of that PTSD to their children and then their children's children causes tremendous problems and unforeseen expenses down the road. What would you recommend to the government that they should do?

I know that you said Ste. Anne's is very helpful for yourselves. But what about the kids? When they call up looking for help, who do they turn to? If, for whatever reason, dad is having a bad day and mom's having a bad day dealing with dad's bad day, who do they turn to? Would you recommend to the government that they put programs or anything in place to assist the children? How would you see that happening? Or should that be a coordinated effort with, say, military family resource centres, with the province, with health boards? How would you, working in the health department....?

I guess I should word it this way: If you're the minister and you see a child of a veteran come to you looking for help, what would you do, or what would you recommend?

[Jenifer Migneault]

That's a hard question you're asking me.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You're so intelligent, so great, I figured if anybody in this country could answer that question, it would be you.

[Jenifer Migneault]

Thank you.

That's a tough question.

I actually do agree with you. I never actually read it, but just listening to you talk about it, I can picture the children's behaviour. Let me give you a very simple and concrete example. In our bedroom, where my husband sleeps, there's a club with nails in it and a baseball bat because he never knows whether we're going to be attacked. He doesn't sleep if the doors aren't locked and it becomes an obsession. He has to check, and he sends the children to go and check.

The children end up developing this fear of the outside world. And when the day comes and he decides to get rid of this plank of wood with nails in it—because he is working on this at the Ste. Anne's Centre—I'll be honest with you, I wonder if I'll be the one who becomes afraid because there's no longer a nail-studded club in my bedroom. It's strange, but that's the way it is. So, it's true, that kind of state of mind rubs off on children. Now, if our 21-year-old daughter went and sought out help and said that her father had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, I think she would get access to resources, which actually do exist, but which may need fine-tuning and improving, and she would get help getting through this. I honestly believe that the existing resources could very well be part of therapy provided by social workers, psychologists, and so on.

On the other hand, for kids that still live at home, it's different because they're younger. Our children grew up in this environment. The older ones have left home and have grown up a bit outside mum and dad's cocoon. It is my belief that if the eldest amongst them gave a cry for help, that the system we have nowadays would be there for him and help him get through it.

As far as the youngest are concerned, they are still at home and still live with someone who has post-traumatic stress syndrome. They have to deal with this dysfunction on a daily basis, so there does indeed need to be more resources for them. I know that Ste. Anne's Centre is going to great lengths to set up workshops and training. The social workers are readily available, but they have busy schedules, considerable workloads, and lack resources. But you know even better than I do what things are like.

But these children really do need to get access to help when they need it. There should at least be some sort of follow-up. As far as the older children are concerned, I think that the system works quite well and that the resources are more or less available to them.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

At this stage I think we've exhausted the questions. We have three other issues we need to deal with today before the committee wraps up.

I'm going to thank our witnesses for presenting today—Mr. Rainville for his service to our country, of course, and Jenifer for her strength of character.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Getting back to some other business, there are now four items. I'm just going to quickly list off what they are. I'm not sure if we're going to have time. We only have 13 minutes.

First, Mr. Shipley has a list of suggested bases that we travel to.

I'll try not to be too specific about this, but as some of you already know, with regard to Mr. Valley's motion to travel outside of Canada, the field trip, I was the only one at liaison committee to vote for it, and I fought for it—

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Chairman. I heard you made very good arguments. You were unsuccessful, but we want to thank you for that.