Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Jenifer Migneault]

Exactly. I know that I am asking a lot, but you need to designate one person to go and meet with the veteran in his home to ask the right questions and take the time to get him to speak. It is difficult for somebody who has repressed all of the deaths and horrors that he saw to talk about it, and he might simply give any old answer to get it over and done with, because it requires so much effort. It is therefore important to have people who can go and meet with veterans in their homes. Bear in mind that the answers as given in these forms are used as a basis for determining what support will be provided in the future. They are, therefore, fairly important and not providing support for filling them in is a grave oversight.

My second suggestion would be to have a file coordinator for each veteran. Somebody who can be contacted, and who could collate information, such as the psychiatric report. A file coordinator would be able to see, for example, that a given veteran had had to stop work and that his benefits would end on the 15th. Armed with this knowledge, she would be able to evaluate the options, and the process would get underway immediately. At the moment, there is overlap between the different services, which does not help us at all. Documents get lost and we are asked to file paperwork that we had sent in five months previously. It really does not help us at all. And then there is the famous pension number.

That is another point that I would like to make, Ms. Hinton. In my husband's case, he was told that he was eligible for emergency help, but that it was complicated because he didn't have his pension number. He was told that his pension number would come through once Charlottetown had finished its analysis. He was told that once that was done, he would become a pension recipient and would be given a number which would grant him access to different programs. However, in cases involving post-traumatic stress disorder, people have to stop work immediately yet it takes months to analyze the veteran's file. We still do not have his pension number, which makes it difficult to gain access to urgent support programs.

It is not simply a matter of giving us money. However, how can my husband get better if he does not have time to look after himself? It is difficult to hold on to a job when you have to go to Ste. Anne's Hospital once or twice a week. It is difficult to hold on to a job when you struggle to do your grocery shopping.

Does that answer your question, Ms. Hinton?

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

The chair won't let me answer, because I have three or four more questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

It's the nature of the job.

Let's go to Mr. Valley from the Liberal Party, for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chair, maybe our witnesses would like to take a minute out to have a sandwich or something.

[Jenifer Migneault]

No, that's all right. Thank you very much, though.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I suppose he took that out of my time.

Just to give the witnesses a quick explanation, many of my colleagues have been in meetings since nine o'clock. This is the only opportunity they have to eat. We're not trying to be too distracting, but this is something we have to do.

I'm glad Mr. Stoffer made the offer. Please share with us.

Again, thank you for your strength to come here today. It has been very good testimony. We know how intimidating it can be to come before us. We're used to dealing with people—that's how we got these jobs—but it takes a lot, so I'm sure you've been anxious over this. Thank you very much for coming.

You mentioned in your comments that your husband's a victim, but I would suggest that you are a victim as much as he is, as is your family, your extended family, as is everyone when this happens--victim of the system that we're using right now, and I want to know if you think victim of the military family itself. Is there something we could have been doing while your husband was still in the force? I'm still trying to understand this. Is there much information given to the serving members right now on what they can face when they leave?

We don't often get a chance, in rooms like this one, to speak to people serving. Thanks to my colleague Mr. Shipley, we'll be visiting some bases and we'll be talking to people in uniform. But is there more the military can do to try to deal with issues that are going to crop up when people like your husband leave the force? More than likely they're already suffering while they're still serving, and maybe don't realize it sometimes.

So is there something the military can do to help track this, or get ready for the day when people are going to leave the force and face some of these severe issues that your family has had to face?

[Jenifer Migneault]

That is a difficult question for me to answer, given that my husband left the Canadian Forces in 1998. It could well be that the current system is very different.

That being said, I can confirm that at that time little information was provided, and not much was done in the way of prevention and making families aware of potential problems. The majority of services offered by the Canadian Forces are for those in uniform; very little help is provided for families and children. We would have liked to have been informed and reassured that resources were available.

I am now more or less comfortable with the system, given that my husband left the forces nearly 10 years ago, in 1998. Had he had an evaluation after leaving the Canadian Forces, given that he had just spent 17 months in Haiti... He basically got lost in the system, like everybody else.

There is no doubt that support was non-existent in 1998, but perhaps the situation has changed since. One thing is for sure though, and that is, regardless of the year or conflict involved, military families really need support. People are talking more and more about post-traumatic stress disorder, and that is great. Nonetheless, you have asked whether spouses and families are truly equipped to deal with the reality. While treatment and services are important, you cannot forget the challenges of daily existence. A veteran's family is his security net. We are the ones on the front line, we live with this reality virtually 24/7.

At that time, there was a crying lack of support and follow-up.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

First of all, don't be uneasy. You're here because you have expertise, unfortunately, in this field. You're survivors. So don't be uneasy about anything. We're trying to fix this in the future. I'm one of many MPs on this committee who feel we should be talking more to some people in uniform, to give support and to get some understanding.

I have time for only one more question.

You talked about the information flow, that it's a problem for veterans because they don't know what to deal with and what to ask for and what is available to them. We understand that side of it, and we thank you for those comments. But is it also a problem with the bureaucracy, the people you have to deal with at Veterans Affairs? Are they aware of everything they can do? Do they have the information on where your husband should go for the next step? The people you work with, are they as informed or as trained as they should be?

[Jenifer Migneault]

The Veterans Affairs agents that have been helping us are absolutely wonderful. That being said, they really seem to have their hands tied when it comes to some matters. They would like to do more, but are unable to due to all sorts of administrative constraints. It is really difficult to be kept in the dark.

When we made the first call, we were told that we would get support, but we were not given any information on the process. We were not told that it could take up to a year to process our request. We find ourselves in a state of perpetual uncertainty.

It is almost as if keeping people in the dark were the department's operational culture, from area counsellors to pension officers. Area counsellors and pension officers are two separate services, one is based in Sherbrooke and the other in Montreal. We are told what the next step will be, and then asked to fill out a form and send it back. That is it.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much for your strength.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now we're on to the Bloc Québécois.

Monsieur Gaudet, for five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I am a new member to this committee, there are some matters that I do not fully understand. The same cannot be said of my colleague, Mr. Perron, who has been on this committee for a number of years.

Did you receive good services before being transferred to Ste. Anne's? Would a psychiatrist specialized in working with children, adolescents or adults be of help to you? Are there good psychiatrists available outside the armed forces? I am sure there are good psychiatrists available in the armed forces, but are those working in the civilian domain equipped to help you?

[Jenifer Migneault]

Is your question for my husband?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Yes. Two majors appeared before the committee and said... That is why I'm asking you this question.

[Claude Rainville]

Could you quickly explain the question to me?

[Jenifer Migneault]

Did you feel that the service providers you met with before going to Ste. Anne's were adequately qualified?

[Claude Rainville]

Civilian psychiatrists?

[Jenifer Migneault]

Yes.

[Claude Rainville]

I do not know whether they were qualified or not, but I knew that something was not working as it should. I do not think that their professionalism was the issue. However, my own ignorance as to these issues means that... The reports that were requested made it clear that there were signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, but nobody spoke to me about it. And I do not know why.

I was completely in the dark. It was not brought up because that was not the reason that I had sought their services.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You've answered my question. I'm certainly not questioning the competence of the psychiatrists and psychologists. Physicians treating an illness for the first time may have some doubts and may do a great deal of research before they come up with the right diagnosis.

The two majors from Valcartier who came to testify before the committee told us that there were not enough psychiatrists and psychologists in the army, particularly for soldiers returning from a mission.

[Claude Rainville]

I did not need the services of a psychologist or a psychiatrist, because when I was in the Canadian armed forces, post-traumatic stress disorder did not exist.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You mean it was not recognized.

[Claude Rainville]

Exactly. There was no psychological follow-up after I returned. We came back from a mission and underwent blood and urine tests, and that was the end of it. We returned to another war mission. It was as simple as that. There was no follow-up, not until General Dallaire came on the scene in 1999-2000.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

When does a soldier become a veteran? You say you worked for the army for 20 years. After how many years can members of the forces take their retirement?

[Claude Rainville]

Twenty years.