Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go over to the New Democratic Party for five minutes. Please go ahead, Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today.

One of the concerns in dealing with World War I, World War II, and Korean veterans--mind you, we only have one World War I person left--is the fact that when they joined the service, a lot of them had minimum education. It could be grade four, grade five, grade six. In World War II it would have been a little higher, but generally these people aren't what you would call academics; they were just your average Canadian, working for a living, and they joined the service.

Many years later, when they became elderly and were applying for services, they had to fill out the forms, and sometimes you need a Philadelphia lawyer just to figure the forms out. Would you not agree or suggest that when government sends out forms or information to people, the forms should be simple to understand, easy to fill out, and uncomplicated? That's my first question.

As you know, some of these individuals suffer from what in the old days was called shell shock, but now it's post-traumatic stress disorder. We had heard in a previous meeting from people who suffer from PTSD that filling out the forms on PTSD itself causes a tremendous number of problems. I'd like your advice on that.

Second is the situation of money. A lot of these veterans, you know, are really self-reliant. They're stubborn and independent. As they say, “I'll shovel my own damn driveway”, but they have a heart attack and die and leave the spouse behind, and then you've got a problem, right? As you said, sir, they need help--today.

Some of the concern, of course, is that when they reach age 65, some of their pensions are reduced from other pensions because of the way those programs were set in place years ago. I'd like your opinion on what the deduction of their pensions means, what the loss of some money at age 65 means, and what the lack of opportunities for pharmaceuticals means, because a lot of these people require access to pharmaceuticals, and depending on which province you live in, you may or may not get covered for something. Years ago in Nova Scotia you couldn't get covered for Aricept, which is for Alzheimer's, but in New Brunswick you could, so people were asking if they had to move to New Brunswick to get this care.

Those are some of the ongoing concerns. No federal or provincial government is going to solve all the problems overnight, but I think collectively we can. I'd like your advice or your discussion on those words, please.

Thank you.

[Willie Lirette]

As concerns forms, when people submit applications for benefits or for federal government projects... I have been involved with seniors' associations and I have been a member of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada for 20 years. We have recommended countless times to government officials to simplify the questionnaires so that people can complete them more easily. You know, the illiteracy rate in Canada is very high, this is a serious problem and nothing is being done about it.

For example, last week, I received an application form for New Horizons, a program to help eradicate senior abuse. As a provincial organization, should we hire someone to fill out this form? It requires vast knowledge of "bureaucratese"—if you will pardon the expression. As volunteers, we are not capable of filling out this form. I learned the next day that this program only has funding of $1.8 million for all of Canada. So we decided not to go ahead with the application because there is insufficient funding. Everyone in Canada is going to fight for a small portion of the $1.8 million allocated to counter senior abuse. We gave up because it would have cost us more to fill out the questionnaire than the money we would have received.

The high illiteracy rate is a major problem and one that is not always understood by government officials. I understand why: these officials are learned experts in the area, but that does not meet community needs. As volunteers, we are often called upon to help people fill out their application form for the Guaranteed Income Supplement, for example. It is a serious problem for these people.

You referred to veterans who have a low level of schooling. They are not always available. When they listen to the radio, watch TV or read the newspapers, they don't always understand what they are reading because it is not their everyday vocabulary that is used. In this regard, I think that it is a serious problem.

[Marc Ryan]

I would like to talk briefly about post-traumatic stress disorder.

When a soldier applies to the Canadian Forces to obtain the status of veteran, I am convinced that psychologists analyze his file. In addition, before soldiers are deployed abroad, their abilities are evaluated to a certain extent.

I firmly believe that all veterans should receive follow-up for a minimum of 10 years, during which professional psychological treatment should be offered automatically and on a mandatory basis. As we know, there are after-effects from combat. That's my opinion concerning post-traumatic stress disorder. As concerns education, I agree with you.

I am now going to speak about poverty among veterans. To prepare myself for today's meeting, I spoke with some friends who are veterans. One of them asked me to tell the committee that in 1967, the government of the era combined the veterans' pension and the National Defence pension, which means that today, some 40 years later, this friend of mine has seen his income decline by 22%. This figure can vary between 20% and 30%. Today, a more sophisticated term is used: withholding. My friend asked me to request that the government abolish this withholding for members of the Canadian Forces.

To ease the pressure of poverty on veterans, this withholding could be eliminated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Yes, of course.

[Greg Shaw]

If I might make one comment or a couple of very quick comments, I certainly recognize the issue around access to medications across Canada, and it's an issue for veterans that there isn't a uniform access to medication charter in this country. It does depend on where you live as to what medications you're eligible to receive, whether they're priority one or priority two meds. I think that's an issue that does need to be addressed.

I think the other important point that needs to be recognized is that with the Second World War veterans we're talking about a cohort of people. I think you could talk to them, and probably nine out of ten would say they don't need or want for anything and their health is not as bad as John's health and they're not old. It's all relative. Most veterans today come from a background of fighting for what they have, not asking for help, and they continue not to ask for help even when they're in dire circumstances. They would probably prefer to die shovelling the snow in their driveway.

So it is an issue on how you get information out and communicate to veterans groups and organizations that people have eligibilities and access to services to support them. It's a way of packaging and selling things that is not a handout to veterans.

One of the examples I can give you is from Australia. Veterans were more comfortable paying for a service than receiving a service for free. If they were going to receive personal care at home, they would be much happier paying $5 a week than receiving that service for free, because they're not interested in receiving a handout. Australia does have a co-payment system, as low as it is, but the take-up of services is probably quite a bit higher in terms of access to services by veterans because they don't see it as a handout.

That's my comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

God bless their generation.

All right. Now we're over to the Conservative Party and Mr. Shipley for seven minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panel for coming out today.

This is part of a discussion we've been having for quite some time about not only VIP but also post-traumatic stress. In the midst of it, we've brought in an ombudsman for veterans, which this country has never had. It was one of those gaps in services for our veterans that has now been filled, I guess you might say. So we're thankful, and we know that they also are thankful for that.

Things sometimes get to the point where veterans have issues in terms of getting services. I think we all agree that we have to, that we need to, quite honestly in government at all levels--I can't speak for the provinces, but I have to make some assumptions about federal, and I was involved municipally--make things less complicated for people in terms of forms. We need to continue to try to improve on what we do to simplify, to make forms understandable, to not just try to prove to people how bright we think we are by developing these complex forms.

Mr. Shaw, I very much appreciated your presentation, along with your nice lingo and language.

Can you tell me, is there a coordination of recommendations? When we talk about veterans, we talk about veterans in Canada, but there are veterans around the world, especially in our free and democratic countries. Is there a coordination--of communication, of packaging, of what works best--across borders?

[Greg Shaw]

There certainly is dialogue, not generally at the government level but at the bureaucratic level within government. I know that when I was in government, I had many delegations from other governments around the world visiting my office to talk about programs and services in Australia.

As I read them, the veterans services or veterans programs available here for veterans are very similar to the programs and services available to the veterans in Australia. They're packaged differently, but they're similar to services around the world.

I think there is more of an acceptance to look at models from outside your own borders and your own country. It's the same for many countries. The federal government in Australia isn't necessarily interested in what the west Australian provincial government is doing in terms of falls prevention because the federal government has a better falls prevention program. But our falls prevention program federally is modelled very much similar to the Canadian falls prevention program.

So there is a transference of knowledge and information across countries, but it's probably not enough. There aren't enough avenues or venues for governments to really talk and dialogue about good practices that are happening in other countries for veterans.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

If you had some thoughts or recommendations on how that might be improved and what we could do as a veterans committee to support or to help move some of that to a next level, I would appreciate that. It doesn't have to be today, but I would appreciate that very much.

I think all of us agree, and certainly the veterans agree, that it is good if they can keep their independence longer within a community, within their own social structure. I was very much interested in your comments about what has happened in Australia with aging veterans who actually don't want a handout, who want to feel worthy, who want to pay for it.

Obviously there will be some who can't, but I think in Canada we tend to think that we have to not do those sorts of things and give people their independence. One thing that happens, though, is that to keep people in their homes, whether it be in their homes or in a seniors complex...and you know, quite honestly, in some places that works well. They actually are with other people of the same age, enjoying recreational facilities and the entertainment that comes with it.

But we have trouble in Canada, as I think many do, with the numbers of professional people in our towns. We don't have doctors in our towns, and we don't have some of the other professional people needed. Obviously when we get to veterans, we have the same issues if we're going to provide some of these services to our veterans to keep them longer in their homes.

I'm wondering if any of you have any thoughts on how we can coordinate or work with the public sector to try to make sure we have professional services for our veterans who need those services that will help keep them in their homes.

I don't know if there is an answer, quite honestly.

[Greg Shaw]

I could give you an example. If you're talking about specific programs and services that are managed or supported through the Department of Veterans Affairs, government, in a number of countries what they do is actually license care providers to be the delivery arm of the packaged services they deliver.

In Australia there would be probably 2,000 organizations that are licensed to be providers of veterans' home care programs. So it doesn't matter whether you're in a small rural town or whether you're in a large urban setting, there are NGOs or organizations that can deliver those services. It might even be through what we would classically know as a bush nursing post in Australia, where it's in a very small indigenous community and the only infrastructure is a small nursing post that those services would be delivered through.

So there is a way of delivering and packaging services, but it's a question of how you get that national consistency.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I know that in Ontario we have the VON, which is just an amazing and incredible organization that's focused around treatment, but they've branched out into many different aspects of home care. It is amazing what they do, because of the volunteerism and because of the funding that they raise just in the community because of their good work.

I believe I'm out of time. I'll maybe get back. Thank you.

[Greg Shaw]

Could I make one quick point?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Witnesses are allowed all the discretion in the world.

[Greg Shaw]

There is always, I think, a disadvantage when you package up the health care needs of older people as opposed to the care needs of older people.

If you're talking about medical interventions and if you talk about leaving people in long-term care facilities, the amount of medical intervention they need in a long-term care facility would generally be under one hour per week. All the rest of the care is really social, personal care. It's not a medical intervention. So I think there is a problem when we put all of the health care and social care into a health model or health budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. Thank you very much.

Now we are back over to the Liberal Party of Canada, and Mr. Russell, for five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to our witnesses.

I listened with quite a bit of interest to your presentations. The demographics are that we're an aging population within Canada itself. I think there are some statistics showing this is the case even within our military. We have an aging military.

It is very timely that you have come before this committee and presented the evidence that you've presented.

I want to ask some very specific questions. They may seem simple.

What's your operating principle for a senior? When you say “senior”, who are we referring to? In government sometimes when we talk about youth, it goes anywhere from 14 to 18, sometimes to 25, and for some programs it could be up to 35 for applicability reasons.

What do you classify as senior?

[Greg Shaw]

In terms of my organization, we classify senior...it's a life course. It is a life course approach to aging. So if we were in Sierra Leone, I don't think any...actually, there are a couple of males who are under the age of 37 here, but all the rest of us would probably be dead. So if you're in Sierra Leone and you're a male, at 37 you are probably considered old. If you're in Japan 70 is considered old, or older. But if I speak to our main representative at the United Nations, Helen Hamlin, who this year turns 87, she would say she's not old.

Governments make an arbitrary benchmark around aging. In Australia, if you're an aboriginal, at 50 you're considered a senior or you're eligible for what someone at 65 would be eligible for.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I can understand there are cultural sensitivities around the concept of aging. I am sure that must be taken into account when you do your studies on aging, the impact of aging, what is required, the services, and that type of thing. Specifically in Canada, what are your operating principles, so to speak?

[Willie Lirette]

There are about three different categories. There are those who are aged 55 and over and who are still in the labour force, there are the baby boomers who are better educated, have greater financial resources and are more professional, and then there are people of my age, 75 and over, who are retired, often illiterate, and who often have a different concept of senior than we do.

In our association, we accept members from the age of 50. That is how most seniors' associations in the country function. However, we cannot offer the same activities or make the same demands for baby boomers as for veterans, for example, who are usually much older. Many Legions are closing their doors because there are not enough veterans. Many seniors' clubs are having the same problem: they are not adjusting their activities to the new retirees that we call baby boomers. The latter are computer-literate, play golf and enjoy different activities than do older people.

In my opinion, we must take into account all three of these categories.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Let's say 50 and up, then you're somewhere in the senior category. What portion of our veterans would meet that sort of test, 50 and up? Does anybody have that number?

[Marc Ryan]

How many?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Yes, of our veterans. People have different notions of veterans as well. Is that figure available?

[Marc Ryan]

I wouldn't have the statistics on the veterans who are 50 and up. But I believe the statistics are in existence for 65 and up. They're easily identified because of Service Canada and those statistics-gathering techniques and the method of counting.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I come from a very rural riding, Labrador. There are a lot of small communities spread out along the coastlines, some in the interior. I think we have something akin to the bush nursing post in Labrador.

Has much study been done on a comparison between services available in urban and rural remote or northern remote areas? What has been found? Is there a lack of services generally or a lack of availability or access in rural remote as compared to urban areas? What kinds of suggestions do you have about that?

I'm sure the Australian experience must be similar, given the huge dynamics of the country. It has the same feel as Canada. I'm wondering what you can tell us about that urban and remote rural mix.