Veterans Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2009

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It's because it's on the way back?

With respect to post-traumatic stress disorder, are there other similar conditions? And is it recognized as a mental illness?

[Kathy Darte]

It's recognized as a mental health disorder, yes. It's in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is used for diagnostic purposes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I'm sorry, we have to keep this tight. That will be the end of these questions.

Thank you, Mrs. Crombie.

We now have Mr. Clarke, for five tight minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses.

I come from an RCMP background, and I thank my colleague for bringing up the RCMP background. I spent eighteen years in the RCMP. My fellow RCMP officers and I have had to deal with the situation and circumstances of traumatic situations and have had to go home on a regular basis without having any outlet to decompress, or basically an outlet to talk.

I wasn't aware that the RCMP had access to this specific OSISS program. I was a detachment commander, and I see some benefit, from your appearing before this committee today, in your going out and preaching more about the successes of this program. What I see, coming from my background, as you do from yours, is the place of intervention models. There's a role that a detachment commander has to play, if we see a situation in which a member needs to seek counseling or needs to be spoken to in order to seek proper medical help.

From the peers and subordinates, what follow-up and tools are in place to measure the success of your program? Also, do the clients have access to self-evaluation?

I'm also curious about the peer supporters. I realize how post-traumatic stress can trigger emotions from the peer supporters when speaking with the clients. What mechanisms are there for the peer supporters as well?

[Kathy Darte]

Are there tools in place to measure success? No, we don't actually have a tool that's measuring the success of the program. But what we're seeing, certainly, is that many of the individuals we're working with are being referred to the new Veterans Charter rehabilitation program and are going through medical rehab. They're already in psychosocial rehab when they're accessing OSISS. Then they're moving on to vocational rehab. We're seeing people getting their lives back in order and getting back to work and getting good jobs. That in itself is a success, and we've had many thank yous from people saying thank you for getting them on that road to wellness.

On self-reports, yes, we have lots of evidence of that. We are continuously told, and I think you heard Cyndi herself say it today, that if it weren't for OSISS, they wouldn't be here today. Many, many people who access OSISS would say the very same thing Cyndi was saying.

What's in place? One of the things we didn't mention today is that all the peer support coordinators have access to a clinical psychologist at Ste. Anne's Hospital, the national centre. He is the one who is responsible for self-care, which we talked about earlier. He is only a phone call away. He's located in Montreal, but all of these individuals can pick up the phone and call him at any time to discuss their own situation as it relates to self-care and how the work is having an impact on them. They do group teleconferences during which they discuss the impact of this kind of work on their own health and well-being.

We put very strong emphasis on self-care in this program, because we need to keep our workers healthy. They are exposed to this, you're right. They're exposed to this day in and day out, and they also have their own health challenges they're trying to protect, because they are recovered or are on that road to recovery themselves, and we do not in any way want to impact that.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much. I just have two brief questions I'd like to have answered as well before we say goodbye.

On behalf of the committee, thank you very much for your testimony. It's very enlightening.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Major Le Beau, you answered a question earlier regarding the lack of psychological testing upon recruitment. When we were doing the study on PTSD in the last Parliament, it was my understanding that there is a psychological examination prior to deployment. Is there not?

The vast majority of CF personnel would not see deployment, would they?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

What's the question you're asking me? What's the percentage of CF members who are deployed?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Yes, the vast majority of CF members would not see deployment to a theatre of conflict. Is that correct?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I cannot answer that question with any level of confidence, to tell you the truth. I don't know what the percentage is. Sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. Let's just go back to the original one, then. If someone is going to be deployed into a theatre of conflict, they have to go through a battery of tests. Is that correct?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Well, they go through what we call the dagging process, which is a funny word, but there is a meeting with a social worker. There is a medical to make sure the person meets the medical criteria and the psychological criteria.

I don't want people to walk away thinking there's a battery of tests being administered prior to deployment. That's not what I'm saying. They will fill out surveys and they will have a one-on-one meeting, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. So there's some level of assessment of how they would respond in a stressful situation.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, there is, absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You're making the point that there might be some need for improvement in the development of the sophistication of that.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Sir, I think you're making that point.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I felt the inference in your answer, but point taken.

Do you think there could be some development, then, in your opinion, in the sophistication of those tests?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

You know, my background is in psychology. I have a master's degree in psychology. My background is selection, so tests are something I've worked with. We would need to look at the benefits of having a psychological tool that would help us distinguish who will develop a mental health problem, and that's not simple. We think it's simple, but it's not a simple process. It's very complex.

I would love to see mental health screening at recruitment if it would ensure that some people don't develop mental health issues later on because of their work. I think that would be a great gain, because a lot of people who are suffering now would not be suffering. But what would that percentage be? Will the tool be effective? Sir, that really needs to be researched carefully.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

It's my understanding that the Americans are doing some research on that right now.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, they are.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

There were a couple of questions during the general questioning of the committee on measurement, and there's very little data. Are you ramping up? I understand there was a question about tools for success, and that might be difficult. But are you ramping up the data collection process now so that down the road you'll be able to have some data to report on about clientele and the outcomes?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, we are. We're also engaging in the process of strategic planning to look at performance measurement. The database has been an issue, and I had a meeting on it yesterday. We're hoping it will be back online again. So we are looking at that, and it's something we understand we need to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Very good.

You heard the applause before. Again, thank you very much for your testimony and the good work you're doing. We appreciate it.