Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2009

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

... after he retires.

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

Was he already receiving a pension?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

No.

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

There may be some confusion about the words “pension“ and “retirement”.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Let us call it retirement. In Canada, someone who retires after 20 years in the Canadian army is entitled to a retirement pension. I consider them the same thing. He receives an amount from the government, perhaps not an extravagant amount, but a certain amount in order to be able to live.

Do you have that in France? It may not come under the veterans' programs but rather under National Defence; it may be not be the same budget.

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

Yes. That is why I was a little uncomfortable about the question earlier. I want to come back to it now. I am sorry to dwell on this. When I talk about a pension, I am really talking about people who, at some point during their military career, become wounded or ill, and their wound or illness is recognized as resulting from an event related to their duty. Those people receive a pension of a certain amount, even if they are not on active service. If something happens to a 20-year-old man who still has 20 years to serve, he will receive a pension, but it will be a minimum amount. That is because he will still be receiving his pay because he will continue to work. When he stops working or leaves the army, he will receive a full pension in keeping with his disability level or his rank when he left the army. We are really talking about a pension here.

Retirement, on the other hand, is subject to the rules governing retirement for public servants. Let us take the example of an army officer. In the army, there are career officers and contract officers. If a career officer, who would spend his career in the army, decides to leave suddenly after 20 years, he will not get a pension until after 25 years of service, because he is still active. A 20-year-old colonel will be entitled to a retirement pension after 25 years. That is how it works.

On the other hand, a contract officer in the army who stays 12 years—we are not talking about a career here, but 12 years with renewals—after 12 years he is entitled to a retirement pension that does not really enable him to stop working. He has to find another job. So if we are talking about pensions, yes, he can get a pension after just 12 years in the army if he is a contract officer. A career officer will get a full pension at the maximum age for his rank, that is, after 25 years. That is retirement. There is really no connection with the pension. These are two completely different things.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, gentlemen. That's the time.

We'll now have Madam O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank you and welcome you for being with us this afternoon.

You spoke earlier about when the spouse or the widow of a military person receives a pension as well. I'm wondering whether, besides receiving a pension, they also inherit or have offered to them the same benefits as the military would have received, such as free medicare or necessary equipment or access to certain institutions. Or do they just get the pension?

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

Thank you, Madam. It is not just limited to the pension. It basically depends on compensation or other rights which were acquired by the person who has died. If you are referring to access to specific medical treatments, that is a right which is directly connected to the deceased spouse. It therefore also applies to treatment and equipment.

However, if you are talking about tax benefits, access to insured pensions and access to the Office National des Anciens Combattants, those rights remain. The rights which are directly connected to the person, that is, those mainly pertaining to benefits based on a person's physical or mental state, disappear when that person dies.

But the widow is still entitled to mainly tax benefits, on top of the pension of the deceased spouse. A little earlier, I talked about complicated math. The pension is not completely reconverted. It depends on the level of disability of the person. If the level of disability is less than 40%, there is a very complicated formula which applies to the pension conversion rate. If the person is incapacitated by over 40%, the conversion is more complete.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. McColeman, do you have a question?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Sure.

Which of the programs and services that are provided are mostly utilized by your veterans? Which programs receive the biggest uptake?

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

I know that veterans mostly use the veterans' mutual insurance company. The French government contributes to the plan, and premiums paid are tax deductible. The vast majority of veterans appreciate this plan, which allows them to pay premiums without being penalized for it. As well, when a veteran turns 65, the pension is paid out and it is tax-free, which represents a double advantage. In my view, this type of pension paid out of a mutual insurance plan is a must for veterans.

A measure which is also greatly appreciated by veterans is administered under the Office National des Anciens Combattants et Victimes de Guerre, and it provides mainly social and administrative support, be it in terms of treatment, loans, help with paper work, and there usually is someone close by to provide guidance. For instance, in the case of a family which is already dealing with a difficult situation, and which is forced to deal with complicated administrative procedures, there would be someone nearby, at the regional level to directly help that family. Of course, social and administrative support are not only provided through this national office. The various branches of the military, including the ground forces, also support the wounded when they return from a mission. It's what we call the ground forces support cell for injured soldiers, and it provides support and psychological guidance, concrete help and psychological counselling for families.

So I think that the most important way to help is to have someone on the ground, close by, who can help the soldiers and their families. As I said in my introduction, we also have tax benefits relating to insured pensions which are guaranteed by the state and which have been increased given the economic crisis.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Colonel.

At this point there's a second round for the Conservative Party. Does someone have another question?

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I do have one, Mr. Chair.

We find in our system, Colonel, that there's a lot of consultation. A lot of the veterans groups are in constant contact with government to discuss the various programs and make recommendations or offer opinions or criticism or whatever the case might be. How is the consultation process carried out in your system?

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

Thank you, sir.

There are 7,300 veterans' associations in France, including 500 national associations. This represents a huge network of associations. As far as I know, the Minister for Veterans Affairs consults with these associations, but they also help with the day-to-day management of the national organization for veterans' affairs. There are ways for members to help develop the tools which are made available for veterans.

In answer to the question as to whether there is a dedicated forum to encourage dialogue between the department and veterans' associations, I don't know.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you. Those are all the questions I had listed.

Phil.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

This relates to the appeals process, I suppose. If a veteran is unhappy with the decision rendered by the department, what options are available to him?

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

Yes, sir, we can discuss the case of an individual soldier coming back from a mission abroad with a disability. There is a process to have the disability recognized. First, there is a form to fill out, of course. Then, the level of disability of the veteran is assessed by physicians who have been certified by the department. These are usually physicians who have a private practice or who work in civilian or military hospitals. So the group of medical specialists assesses the level of disability and then gives its reports to the veteran.

If the veteran's disability is recognized, the file goes through all the normal channels of the Defence Department. It is transferred to the Pension Service and to the Department of Finance which ultimately validates or invalidates the pension application. If the pension is validated, it will be paid out. However, if the veteran does not agree with the rate of disability assessed by the medical specialists, or if there is no finding of level of disability, a review is conducted by a commission of reform comprised of military officers who are still in service and chaired by a military doctor. If the veteran disagrees with the finding of the commission of reform, the veteran has six months to file an appeal with the provincial Pension Tribunal. The applicant can also file an appeal with the regional Pension Tribunal. So the appeal would move from the provincial to the regional level and the matter could ultimately be appealed to the Conseil d'État, which is the highest Court of Appeal. This court hears cases involving rights, including pension rights.

To summarize, if there is a consensus, the medical specialist assesses the level of disability, and the level of disability is ultimately validated by the Department of Defence and the Finance Department. However, if there is disagreement, there is a legal avenue available to the applicant, which begins at the provincial level, and moves to the regional level, and ultimately ends up at the federal level, the Cour de Cassation, the highest appellate court, in cases where the applicant is not satisfied or where the government maintains its original assessment.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you once again, Colonel.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Stoffer, for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sir, how many people work in the department for veterans affairs in France?

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

That's a very good question. Are you just referring to the Department of Foreign Affairs or to all of the provincial institutions and directorates?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

No, just in veterans affairs.

[Col Jean-Michel Verney]

I don't have the numbers for that.