Veterans Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Storseth has five minutes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll try to ask more questions and give less comment than my colleagues.

I want to touch base on what Mr. Stoffer just said. It's the very important issue of career progression.

You said that career progression is not taken into account; it's functionality and need more than anything. You suggested there are some models. Are you familiar with the models, and can you tell us which ones they are?

[Ken Miller]

I can table them with you.

I forget the origins and the models, but we looked at systems a number of years ago where career progression was attempted. It's a difficult thing to do, to be honest with you. I forget what country it was related to.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Why is it a difficult thing to do? From my experience with the Canadian Forces, in talking to the men and women, it seems it shouldn't be that difficult. What are some of the reasons why it's so difficult to do?

[Ken Miller]

One has to make assumptions around what that progression would be. The only sort of valid comparable I am aware of is to look at averages, to look at what ranks individuals typically would attain to get some reference point. But on an individual basis one can't know or really estimate where someone would have landed if something else hadn't happened and they had continued on the career path they were on.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Yes, but generally stated, in your career path in the Canadian Forces after your tenth, twentieth, and thirtieth years there are general trends you should be able to identify. It is very important, because a lot of the men and women coming home today after being injured in Afghanistan or other missions are generally not colonels and generals. They're our privates and corporals, and they have expectations of career progression. That needs to be taken into account when it comes to the benefits they receive afterwards. Their families also have expectations about career progression and life in the forces.

I'm interested in your viewpoints on that. If you can table the models you are aware of that would be very helpful to the committee.

[Ken Miller]

Yes, we could do that. I should point out as well that it's largely a question that perhaps would be more appropriately asked of the Canadian Forces, who can really speak to that. But my understanding is there are trends that could be of value.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I know I'm going to be limited in time, but I have two questions. The first I'd like to ask deals with PTSD, and I guess it's more of a comment than a question.

Right now, it's very difficult for our men and women who have been diagnosed with PTSD after leaving the forces. These men and women take the steps to deal with it, are diagnosed with it, and are then shunted off to deal with insurance companies, whose bureaucracies are equally as cumbersome to deal with as our own in the federal government, but don't have the resources that DND had to deal with these things. And it doesn't seem there are a lot of resources that these men and women get from the Department of Veterans Affairs either, to deal with these kinds of situation, even in ensuring that they know what their rights are and what the proper steps to go through are.

Do you have any comments on that?

[Ken Miller]

Debbie may also want to comment on this from the supporting adjudication point of view.

Certainly the point you make about the difficulty in providing the evidence can become problematic the further away you are from the point of injury. The closer you are to it, the easier it is for us to assume certain pieces of evidence. For example, in the absence of other reasonable explanations for the origin of an injury in an individual whose service could likely have led to that injury, you can draw a certain inference that there's a connection between their service and the PTSD they now have. We can use that information in the process. But as you get more and more years out from it, it becomes more difficult.

Did you want to comment, Debbie?

[Debbie Gallant, Director, Benefit Operations, Department of Veterans Affairs]

The only other point I would add is regarding the difficulty of knowing what the steps are and how you can negotiate the bureaucratic maze. Here, I think it's important to note that we have pension officers in our district offices across the country to help people with all aspects from point A to point Z, including filling out the application form, helping them amass the medical information, and helping them get their service medical records from either the Canadian Forces or the--

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

The problem I have encountered on numerous occasions is that these men and women go through all of that. They get diagnosed with PTSD by a Veterans Affairs or military doctor, who says that their PTSD is directly from their service in Bosnia, or wherever it was; but now they have to deal with an insurance company, whose bottom line is profit and who makes it very difficult for these men and women. They now have to go through separate doctors the insurance companies put them through to prove they have the condition. You can talk to five doctors on five issues and you can get assessed with five different levels of the condition. None of them say these people don't have PTSD, but have varying levels of it. So then the size of the awards you get varies.

It becomes very complex and very frustrating for these men and women, who are going through a difficult time in their life as it is. It's the bureaucracy of it. It really seems in some ways that we're failing them when we push them off and say they have to deal with the insurance company.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Storseth. That exhausts your time.

Go ahead and please respond to his question.

[Ken Miller]

I just have a point of clarification.

Insofar as they are accessing vocational rehabilitation and earnings loss support through the SISIP program, that is administered on behalf of the Canadian Forces through an insurance-based approach and is administered by an insurance company.

With respect to the benefits, however—I can't speak to that, because it's not our program—that are administered by Veterans Affairs, those are administered directly. It's not an insurance company that makes decisions. Those decisions are made within the department by departmental staff, based on the medical reports and information that we receive through service documents from clients and medical examinations that would have happened post-release, which are available for our use.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Vincent, you have the floor for the third time today. You have five minutes.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Well, yes, this is my third turn today: it is the fifth on the other side, the fourth there, the second there, the second there as well. Let's not start keeping track. If we do so over a longer time, we will see who is right. We will talk about it next week, you can be sure of that, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask you a question and I really want the answer. How many claims do you get and how many are accepted? You have those figures in your office, I feel sure. Could you provide them to the committee?

Then, I would like to know the amount of time between a claim being submitted and being approved. In general terms, how long does it take to process a file? A little while ago, I gave you an example where several months have gone by and the process is not finished because it is still being appealed. I would like to know how much time a file takes to process.

I am not talking about a simple claim. If we know that a person has lost both arms and both legs, we do not need to spend a lot of time agonizing over whether he is entitled to 100% of his salary. I am talking about a normal claim. If someone has lost an arm here and three fingers there, what percentage can he be given? What kind of job can he be rehabilitated for when he only has two legs left? Going a little further, how are the rehabilitation and benefits determined when someone suffers a head trauma after which the body works but short-term memory is partially affected?

I would like this information in writing. You could send it to the committee so that I can get my thoughts together and come up with specific questions for the person who is coming next week to testify about specific cases.

During the testimony, we heard that people making claims were often the victims of intimidation when they wanted to defend themselves. For example, they were advised not to do such and such a thing, not to take their case to court, or even not to make a claim because that could adversely affect their career path later on and prevent them from rising through the ranks in the Canadian Forces. We heard testimony that suggested that there might be intimidation at your level and people were afraid to make claims. I would like to know how much intimidation there is. Are you aware of that? I would like answers in writing. But if you have answers now, feel free to provide them.

[Anne-Marie Pellerin]

One of the first questions you asked was the number of applications we receive on an annual basis. In the last fiscal year, we received in the range of 20,000 applications, or just under 20,000. Those were the combined applications for both the disability award and disability pension. The approval rate for those—

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I was actually talking about new claims; I am not talking about claims at the benefits stage. Let's say that, several years after leaving the Canadian army, I make a claim for my post-traumatic stress. That is a new claim. I am not talking about claims that are already approved, or about changes to those claims. I am talking about a member of the Canadian Forces who files a new disability claim with your department.

Are we talking about the same thing? Is that the question you were answering? I just wanted to make sure.

[Anne-Marie Pellerin]

The number I gave you was for first applications for disability awards, disability pensions. So it was just slightly under 20,000 in the last fiscal year. The favourability rate on those first applications—

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You said 20,000 claims, not dollars?

[Anne-Marie Pellerin]

The number of dollars?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Because you first said 20,000 claims and then you said $20,000. We are talking about 20,000 claims for benefits, not dollars.

[Anne-Marie Pellerin]

Yes, it's the number of claims.

The favourability rate is in the 75% range.

[Ken Miller]

At the moment, it is about 75%.

[Anne-Marie Pellerin]

It's 73%.