Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We do have a quorum, so we will start.

I would indicate that we're still awaiting one witness, but we're going to start with the general. As we have done before, we'll hear from both witnesses and then go to questions and answers. If for some reason we have only one witness, then certainly we'll spend more time on questions and answers, or you can tell us what it's like down south or whatever you want to do.

Anyway, I'd very much like to welcome Lieutenant-General Louis Cuppens this morning.

As you know, we're continuing our examination of our study topics. This morning we are looking at the Last Post Fund to start, and then we will deal with the Power Workers' Union information that will be provided.

Welcome. As you know, we allow ten minutes, give or take, and then we go around the table for questions and answers.

Thank you for coming this morning.

[Lieutenant-General, Retired) Louis Cuppens (Past National President, Last Post Fund]

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I'm pleased to bring you greetings from our national president, Lieutenant-Colonel Evelyn Kelly, who is unable to be present today. I will do my utmost to represent her and the organization that we serve.

The topic of commemoration in the 21st century is one that should appeal to all Canadians, especially to those who have had their lives influenced in some way by Canada's armed forces and veterans. I am one of those who were so influenced. As you can see from my biographical sketch, I was born in Nijmegen in the Netherlands during World War II. Canada so influenced my family that we became immigrants to Canada in 1950, and I chose to spend my adult life in the service of Canada in the Canadian armed forces.

I am a member of a number of veterans associations and willingly serve in various capacities for the Last Post Fund, the Royal Canadian Legion, ANAVETS, the Corps of Commissionaires, the Royal United Services Institute, and a number of Canadian military organizations.

It is my understanding that you wish me to speak to you today about the Last Post Fund and its activities and challenges, so I will not be addressing the other organizations in my testimony unless you ask.

We have just concluded Veterans’ Week, and I salute my comrades in the Royal Canadian Legion and Veterans Affairs Canada for the delivery of well-executed commemoration events across Canada and globally.

When I am reflecting, I am reminded often of the spoken statement of the mayor of Colorado Springs. That was the location where I last served in the military as deputy commander in chief of the NORAD. Mayor Makepeace would conclude most of her speeches with this quotation: “Colorado Springs is a place where every day is military and veterans’ appreciation day”. I wish this sentiment were the same right across Canada, but sadly I report that it is not.

I consider myself a champion of veterans’ issues, and I am proud to dedicate my free time to the cause of veterans. As a retired lieutenant-general, I am easily found in New Brunswick, where I reside, and I answer the calls for help willingly.

Now I will focus on the Last Post Fund. We have been supporting veterans since the act of charity of our founder, Arthur Hair, in 1909. He encountered a veteran named James Daly, who, after dying and being abandoned, would have had his remains consigned to medical research and thereafter been placed in a pauper's grave. Hair chose to honour Daly by soliciting funds to provide for a dignified funeral. Through that action, the Last Post Fund was born. Since that time we have facilitated the funeral and burial of nearly 150,000 veterans.

Over time, with legislative changes in 1921 and finally in 1995, the Last Post Fund has, with funds provided by the Canadian government, delivered the federal government’s veterans funeral and burial program. During this same period and up to the present time, the Last Post Fund continued to organize commemoration activities across Canada. Whether through the establishment of fields of honour or columbaria or the marking of previously unmarked veterans’ graves, the Last Post Fund has been there to commemorate veterans.

As a not-for-profit corporation with letters patent, we have partnered with Veterans Affairs Canada to deliver the veterans funeral and burial program. We have done so for some time, and we have a footprint across Canada through the presence of our provincial boards, our volunteers, and our salaried employees. Since our founding in 1909, we have remained independent of the Royal Canadian Legion and ANAVETS, but we have always ensured that they are well aware of the programs that we deliver to veterans.

Our website and the brochure that I have sent to you outline the programs that we deliver and the regulations that govern the same. In short, traditional veterans of World War II and Korea service who are qualified financially may be eligible for a funeral and burial benefit. Those few modern-day veterans in receipt of a disability pension may also be eligible for benefits, subject to the same means test.

To keep this simple and for illustrative purposes, if a married veteran’s estate has fewer assets than $12,015, excluding the house and car, this veteran would be eligible for benefits, depending on his military service. I should point out that as a result of program review in 1995, this amount is half of what was allowed prior to 1995.

The number of veterans of World War II and Korea has been decreasing dramatically in recent years. There are fewer than 130,000 remaining, and it's estimated that this group will cease to exist in only a few years. On the other hand, it's estimated that there are nearly 600,000 modern-day veterans, some of whom may need the benefits of the funeral and burial program. However, to estimate how many would need to do so is difficult to determine.

Suffice it to say there will likely be a need for access to the veterans funeral and burial program in the years to come. For more than a decade, the Last Post Fund has advocated that the program be extended to modern-day veterans in the same way it was offered to traditional veterans. Unfortunately, the governments of Canada during this period have declined to do so, despite the urging of all veterans organizations.

The question that comes to mind is how many modern-day veterans have been denied access to funeral and burial benefits? Unfortunately, our staff did not keep records on how many veterans have been told they were ineligible for such benefits. We are now keeping records of this. What we do know is that donation moneys have been used to provide dignified funerals for some modern-day veterans. I don't consider this to be appropriate. A veteran is a veteran, and all veterans deserve the final commemoration of a funeral.

For a number of reasons, the graves of some veterans were not marked with gravestones, whether upright or flat. As this became evident, the Last Post Fund sought the assistance of Veterans Affairs to resolve the marking of unmarked graves. Such is a Last Post Fund program, and it continues. In essence, where a grave remains unmarked for more than five years, the Last Post Fund will provide and install a military-type marker for such graves.

Prior to 2010 we had a national office and branch offices in each province except Prince Edward Island, since it was affiliated with New Brunswick. Each branch had an office, a charter, and a volunteer board of directors.

Shortly after becoming the national president, along with my team I began to exercise cost-saving measures to minimize our operating expenses. This was done without any urging or demand from Veterans Affairs Canada, but it came from our experience as prudent managers of public moneys.

We implemented a 10% across-the-board reduction in operating expenses; diminished the numbers of publicly funded board meetings; froze hirings; joined the branches of Manitoba and Saskatchewan; and eventually restructured the organization, with a resultant reduction in eight salaried personnel positions from our 36-person salary base. In so doing, we now have a salaried regional structure of four regions that are accountable to the national office.

There is the western region, where the regional office is in Edmonton, with offices and counsellors in British Columbia, Alberta, and Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The Ontario regional office is in Toronto. The Quebec regional office is in Montreal. And the Atlantic region has its regional office in Halifax, with offices and counsellors in New Brunswick, P.E.I., Newfoundland and Labrador, and Nova Scotia.

We also explored with Veterans Affairs Canada the feasibility of co-locating some of our district offices with them. However, the needs of Veterans Affairs Canada for office space made this a non-starter. Perhaps this might be achievable in the future.

We have an information technology system that allows for rapid settlement of claims from any of our offices anywhere in the country. As an example, a counsellor in Newfoundland-Labrador can actually process a claim for an individual in New Brunswick, and this can be performed from any of our offices.

Having shaved our operating expenses as much as possible, we find that our operating expenses are still too high compared with program costs. Our operating costs are about 28% of the program, so further reductions in salaried staff will be necessary. Our executive committee is examining further restructuring and staff reductions; therefore, it's likely that a phased reduction in salaried personnel, leading to the establishment of a call centre, will occur in the future. Such a restructure would also lead to the closure of a number of offices across Canada, thereby realizing further savings in operating expenses. Unfortunately, with office closures our footprint across Canada will decrease.

I should point out, however, that the drop-in client numbers at our offices have significantly diminished. Most, if not all, of our client applications occur telephonically and not by in-person visits. Given this situation, the migration to a call-centre method of staffing is quite practical.

The present veterans burial regulations were finally approved in 2005. While the regulations did not cater for certain expenses, Veterans Affairs staff decided not to seek amendments to the regulations until such time as the current regulations were approved. Since approval of the VBRs, as we call them, several attempts have been made to amend these regulations; however, these have so far been unsuccessful. Had these amendments been approved and the means testing baseline amended, our operating costs percentage would have diminished slightly.

Members of the Canadian Forces and RCMP have had the allowable expenses for funerals increased significantly, but not so for veterans. The veterans burial regulations allowable expenses have remained static. It is our contention that the family of a veteran approved for a funeral benefit should be able to spend the allowable amount within the funding envelope defined by the government.

Further, when the veterans burial regulations were written and approved, the approved items and excluded items were listed within the regulations. These allowances and restrictions, promulgated in regulations, restrict the speedy resolution of needed changes.

You may wonder what some of these present restrictions for veterans include. Again, I wish to stress that the funeral programs for Canadian Forces and RCMP members do not have these restrictions. What is not allowed or budgeted for are obituary notices, death notices, clergy, flowers, and even the Canadian flag. Further, within the regulations some items are capped. Let me cite just a few: last illness expenses are capped at $75; funeral services are capped at $3,600; however, if the funeral requires the services of two funeral directors at different locations, the transportation costs are capped at $500; preparation of the remains, grave liners, etc., are also capped.

I am aware that total cost allowed for the funeral of a serving Canadian Forces member exceeds $13,000, and basically, as stated by the Chief of the Defence Staff some time ago, funerals cost whatever it takes, within reason. Changes to the veterans burial regulations have been and continue to be advocated by the Last Post Fund, by veterans associations, and by the Canadian funeral directors association; however, success has eluded us so far.

I mentioned earlier in my briefing that we commemorate the service of veterans. We do so by facilitating the burials of World War II and Korean War veterans who are financially challenged and eligible modern-day veterans. We do so in conducting remembrance-type ceremonies across Canada. We do so in operating a number of fields of honour and columbaria in various places across Canada. We do so in operating the Last Post Fund's National Field of Honour in Pointe-Claire, Quebec, which is now a national historic site that began operations in the 1930s. At that site more than 20,000 persons are interred. Finally, we do so in delivering the Last Post Fund's unmarked grave program. Since the inception of this program in 1996, we have identified and marked more than 3,000 graves across Canada.

In closing, the Last Post Fund began in 1909, and this not-for-profit entity has continued to serve and commemorate veterans since then. We have advocated changes to programs and regulations in a non-adversarial manner.After all, we deliver a federal government program in partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada.

I thank you for your attention. I am prepared to answer any of your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you, General.

We are going to hear from our second witness. I am very pleased that Colonel Nellestyn arrived.

I understand you are going to refer to the documentary process. We will allow you about ten minutes, give or take. We are very flexible here.

[Colonel, Retired) Andrew Nellestyn (Co-Producer, The documentary series, The Veterans, Power Workers' Union]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. I am pleased and honoured to have been invited to speak before you this morning.

If I may just make an editorial comment, having heard Louis speak and knowing what he does, I fully support the advocacy that he has brought before this committee with respect to burials. I must also say that coming to sessions such as this is rather pleasant, mainly because I see people I haven't seen for some while. Louis is one of them. I haven't seen Louis for years, actually. He looks just as well as he did in former years.

What I want to talk to you about this morning is a documentary series that began about three and a half years ago. A gentleman by the name of Daniel Rodrique, who is the producer, had a vision of recording, in historical context, the stories of veterans and the experiences they had throughout a continuum commencing with the First World War and going up to, and including, Afghanistan. That dream was realized through the generous support of a number of private individuals, corporations, the government, and foundations. The principal sponsor of this documentary series is the Power Workers' Union, headquartered in Toronto, Ontario.

You might think the participation of the Power Workers' Union is a bit odd. Well, no, it really isn't, because the Power Workers' Union, like a number of other unions, employs a great number of veterans. To the dismay of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces, they poach technical people as well. They had a great interest in supporting this particular project. The other organizations that were quite supportive and encouraging were the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Air Force Association of Canada, at whose annual general meeting some three plus years ago we presented a promotional video outlining the documentary. Everything from there on is history.

The principal target of the documentary series is young Canadians. Why is this? It's because the documentary wishes to illustrate the attributes of civics, citizenship, nation-building, and leadership, as illustrated through the participation of Canada in foreign missions and conflicts. It documents the effects on Canada, Canadians, and the military. It takes as it's starting point World War I. Why World War I? World War I marked the coming of nationhood to Canada and to Canadians. For example, the Canadian Expeditionary Force, commanded by General Currie, was commanded by a Canadian. More to the point, General Currie reported to Ottawa and not the Colonial Office in Great Britain. The other reason is that World War I marks the industrialization of Canada and rather a monumental change in the demographics as they relate to employment, migrations after the war, and a number of other factors.

There are two streams to this documentary. The first is the military stream. That includes the First World War, the Second World War, Korea, peacekeeping operations, the Cold War, and participation in the Balkans, Iraq, and Afghanistan. What it looks at is how the changing nature of warfare affects military operations, military doctrine, education, training, and capital equipment purchases. What is also interesting is that it includes the contributions of civilians--that is, non-uniformed Canadians.

To cite an example vis-à-vis World War II--and some of that occurred in World War I as well--there's Rosie the Riveter: women working on the factory floors assembling aircraft, becoming machinists, replacing people in offices who participated in the theatres of war.

The other aspect is that it includes NGOs. It includes St. John Ambulance, the Salvation Army, and now it's called the Canadian Forces personnel support system, as well as Tim Hortons. And yes, Tim Hortons is very much involved in raising the morale of the troops, as it did in Kandahar. Whether or not it will be located in Kabul as the mission now changes to one of training remains to be seen.

It also addresses defence science and technology and the Canadian defence industrial base. Defence science technology is transferable. It has made an impact on positioning Canada in leadership positions, in the export market in specific areas, and in addition is a net contributor to the economy. The same applies to the Canadian defence industry per se.

As you can see, it is unique in the sense that it covers a time continuum and it covers all people in Canadian society, whether they be uniformed or not.

The other phase, which is really an umbrella phase, is the impact on Canada and Canadians. I think it's fair to say that as the military reflects the values, the mores, the culture of the society from which it comes and the society it serves, it also works in the reverse direction.

We have seen since World War I, for example, changes in Canadian values, Canadian culture, governance per se, and for that matter, Canada's position in the world. By that I suppose it might be trite to say that you have to pay the ante to play poker, but it is a fact of life. So Canada's participation in ensuring security, in protecting democracy, and championing human rights is indeed part of that ante that allows and has resulted in Canada's participation around world tables--for example, a seat at the tables in Paris on the conclusion of World War I, around which the shape of Europe was determined. It also impacts, for example, Canada's position in international fora, whether they be G-8, G-20, the IMF, the World Bank, and on the list goes.

In essence, what this documentary is trying to portray is the evolution of Canada through the eyes of those who were there.

The documentary was to consist of 52 episodes, but it's somewhat grown. I suspect that by the time we're finished it will be 60-plus episodes, each of 40 minutes in length. It will be in a bilingual format. And thanks to the kind generosity of the Department of Veterans Affairs, we've been able to ensure that the bilingual format is available. I spent seven weeks in Afghanistan, in January and February of this year, filming most of it outside the wire to ensure that this particular aspect was captured as well. And as some of you may know Roto 10, which is the last combat operation Roto for Task Force Kandahar, was based on the battle group that came out of CFB Valcartier.

The documentary has been gifted to the people of Canada free of charge. It is available on the Internet. We are presently negotiating with some of the broadcasters, television particularly, to have it shown in that particular media as well. But one can go to the Internet at www.pwu.ca, click on the logo of the veterans, and it is downloadable from there. And that “pwu” is the Power Workers' Union of Ontario.

The documentary was premiered on November 4, about a week or so ago, at the Canadian War Museum, in the Barney Danson Theatre. It was extremely well attended.

The Minister of Veterans Affairs, the Honourable Steven Blaney, spoke to the attendees, as did the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Walter Natynczyk.

Each of the episodes is introduced by Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Senator Pamela Wallin.

I might add that another aspect of the documentary is that it covers the media. It's important, because as the military reflects Canadian society, the media goes a little step further: it reflects Canada's values and society, but it also helps shape and influence them. In that respect, there was participation by Senator Wallin; Brian Stewart of the CBC, who I'm sure is well known to all of you; Tom Popyk, a lesser-known war correspondent who finds himself pretty well everywhere there is some conflict; and Matt Fisher.

That pretty well concludes my presentation in the context of the theme of this morning's meeting, commemorative celebrations in the 21st century. We're very pleased to have had an opportunity, through the production of this documentary, to celebrate contributions made by our serving men and women in uniform, as well as our veterans.

It has been quite an experience being involved in this. It marks quite a departure from what I am accustomed to doing, which constitutes about 23 years of service in the Canadian Forces, followed by about an equal period as a senior corporate executive in Canada and abroad. I may fancy myself as a bit of a videographer, although I rather doubt I could make that my daytime job, but it was a lot of fun.

It also caused me to reflect. I thought I had some notion of the role of Canada's military in nation-building, but I found that in travelling about and speaking to veterans and serving men and women of the armed forces, my knowledge was rather limited. In that regard, it was rather illuminating, and it increased my admiration and respect for those particular individuals, including Canadians who did not serve in uniform but whose contributions were critical. Without those contributions we could not have concluded in the fashion we did.

Interviewing veterans turned out to be a painful experience. My principal deployments abroad during the time I was in the military were related to peacekeeping operations, which are very different from peacemaking operations or coalition operations such as we experience today. The suffering and pain that is experienced by veterans and those who still serve in the military and their families and friends is unimaginable. How they manage to cope impresses me tremendously. That's why the advocacy that Lou has presented this morning in terms of--I don't want to trivialize--the cradle-to-grave aspect is very important.

As far as the changing nature of warfare, we look at World War I as shell shock, World War II and Korea as battle fatigue, and most recently post-traumatic stress disorder, which has now been bundled into something very much larger called occupational stress injuries. In this regard, I commend the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of National Defence, and the Royal Canadian Legion for doing what they can to help people who are so distressed cope.

That's not to say that all that can be done has been done, because there certainly is a lot more to do. But there has been a start, and it's through the concern and the care of people such as General Cuppens here and others that this is now being addressed.

It's been an experience. It's been a lot of fun. I'm glad it's over. I can get back to my other life, whatever it is going to be after this particular experience. Again, I'd like to thank you very much for inviting me to be with you this morning to share these particular experiences.

I have here a memory stick that has on it an interview that I did with the CBC, which takes on another vein in which you may be interested. I have brought you some programs that represent what transpired during the gala premiere at the War Museum. You're welcome to have one of these. If you need more, please ask and they will be there. It also includes a list of those people who contributed in one fashion or another. It's quite extensive, and I thank them all.

The painting here was volunteered by a local artist who wants to express in her own way her thanks to our veterans and serving men and women. Her name is Shelly Den. Indeed, it went very well.

Thank you.

I am very happy to be here this morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Colonel.

There's a lot of material for the members of the committee to get into. So we're going to start with the NDP and Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, I apologize for being just a bit tardy. Romeo Dallaire was giving a speech this morning at the Salvation Army.

Colonel, my first question is for you. I noticed the list of people who are in the documentary but I don't see General Dallaire's name there. Was he offered an opportunity to participate?

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

Yes.

General Dallaire is actually one of the first people we interviewed. There is an entire episode—I believe it's 43 minutes—that features General Dallaire. He's a great friend of mine, a tremendous Canadian, and a soldier, indeed. Yes, he is included. There are many others on the list. You will find those who are on it if you go to the website I indicated a little earlier. There are many. There are civilians, military people, corporate people, government people, and all walks and levels of Canadian society.

Thank you for your question. It would have been an omission of the most glaring nature for him not to have been included.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Colonel, I appreciate that. Thank you.

Mr. Cuppens, it's good to talk to a fellow Dutchman. Thank you very much. Thank you for your services as well, sir, in and out of uniform.

In the statement you gave to us, I can read between the lines the frustration your organization has. We deal with families all the time who have been denied access to a proper burial for their heroes. I see in your pamphlet what frustrates them: the means test—disabled veterans “may” be eligible for benefits—or the other one, that veterans of World War II who are able to qualify financially “may” be eligible.

At the very end, you're absolutely correct when you say that a veteran is a veteran, and all veterans deserve the commemoration of a funeral. I couldn't agree with you more. This is the frustration I personally have. I have always indicated—and you've indicated here—that for those who serve our country, Remembrance Day is every day. Every one of these heroes should be treated with dignity, all the way to, and including, the headstone. I'd like you to comment on that as well.

You also mention the 28% administration fee. Your budget is around $9 million, I believe, give or take a few dollars.

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

Our current-year budget is $11.8 million for program.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

It's $11.8 million. Sorry....

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

And it costs us just shy... We budgeted it for about $3.1 million. That's administrative costs.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I was talking to a few of the folks in Halifax. They indicated there are some solutions to that. Could you provide some of the solutions you see in order to reduce the administration, not necessarily in terms of salaries or people, but in terms of facilities, in order to transfer some of those moneys on to the assistance for veterans' funerals?

Thank you both very much for coming.

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

Mr. Stoffer, thank you for your support to veterans as well.

I'll comment first on the first part of your question regarding the statements made in our brochure about the words “may be eligible”. When this program was initially set up and finally approved in regulations in the year 2005 there had been already some changes to who would be eligible for a veteran's funeral. The first criterion is there must be a demonstration that the individual who passed away is indeed a veteran. It takes a little bit of time to get the archived material to determine if this veteran served his country.

After that it's a matter of choice for the government in regulation that this is a program to look after the burial of veterans who are, at the time of their death, in financial need.

Prior to program review in 1995, the eligibility criteria and moneys were that roughly $25,000 could be in the estate of a veteran if he was married, exclusive of the house and car. In 1995, as a result of program review, this means test dropped to $12,015. By virtue of doing that, it then denied a whole group of veterans who had before that date been eligible because their estates in 1994 could have been $25,000. Now we've just slashed that in half.

If the veteran who is deceased has no larger amount in his estate after all the bills are paid of $12,015, he is then eligible for a funeral benefit. It has to do with the moneys allocated in law by the Government of Canada. It has nothing to do with the Last Post Fund.

Continuing on, yes, in my opening remarks I attempted to convey that the Last Post Fund has been frustrated by the slowness of change. We used to pass humour about how long does it take to have regulations amended? Well, it took ten years to have them created and they were flawed right from the outset. The strategy adopted by the bureaucrats was let's not derail the regulatory process; let's get the regulations approved and then we'll go for the amendments.

We have been working on the amendments now since 2005. It looks like it may take just as long to get the amendments approved as it did to get the regulations themselves approved.

Also, I made the statement in my opening remarks that there are things in the regulations themselves that shackle us in delivering the funeral and burial benefit. I gave you specific examples of what is not allowed in a veteran's funeral: the obituary, the death notice, the clergy, flowers, and even the Canadian flag. I can give you more specifics if you're curious, but in the case of a serving member of the Canadian Forces or RCMP there are no such restrictions. There is just an envelope of money to look after the funeral. And as the former CDS General Hillier announced one time, a funeral costs whatever it takes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

General, we have a time allotment. I know more information will flow as you move on.

I'd now like to move to Mr. Lobb for five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Nellestyn. The Power Workers' Union has a large membership in my riding in Bruce County. For the video, who is your target audience? I guess it could be all Canadians, but is it specifically targeted to any demographic in Canadian society? What kind of impact are you looking for with your video?

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

The documentary is for all Canadians. With respect to demographics, it includes all demographics. In fact, it was a representation on a demographic basis as well, both geographical and with respect to ethnicity, etc.

The intent really is to illustrate to Canadians what the military has contributed to nation-building and for young Canadians, on the basis that they are tomorrow's leaders, to have an illustration of, as I stated, civics, citizenship, nation-building, and leadership as reflected through this particular vehicle.

Does that answer your question?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes, it does.

I guess the cost for a Canadian to view this is zero.

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

Zero.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It's zero. So when the cost is zero you want as many to see it as possible. Obviously you had your kick-off last week, but how are you going to roll this out so that every Canadian has a chance to see this and knows about it?

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

Let me just address one issue on the cost. The documentary was made on a volunteer basis. The production team in essence consisted of three people: the producer, myself as the co-producer, and a cameraman-editor. We dedicated three and a half years to this. It was a labour of love. It was also a labour of necessity, because the ultimate purpose is to ensure that we don't forget, that we continue to honour, we continue to appreciate, but also that we grow on the basis of not just what the military but also what Canadians themselves can do in times of conflict and crisis. That's the impact we wish to leave.

On what we're doing to promote this, I think you have an opportunity to look at the people who have been thanked in this particular program. We've reached and touched a great number of people in Canadian society, all of whom in one way or another are in a position to assist with its promotion.

When we first started, those in the media were suggesting that this should be focused on television broadcast, on the media for young people. I'm not quite sure where young ends and whatever begins, but let us say that up to the age of 35 it's the Internet, and that is who we want to reach. It will be packaged. It has been left with the Canadian War Museum's archive and the Military History Research Centre, but we also have in the interim a great number of people to promote it. We've worked with the teachers' union in Ontario, and we're doing so with those across the country, and also here in Ottawa with the Ottawa–Carleton District School Board to get this into the classrooms, through the branches of the Legion, through those members of the media who are in position to move this forward.

As I said, we're in the process of discussing with media—for example, Discovery and History Channel, TVO, PBS, mainline broadcasters in Canada—how they can use it. Obviously a mainline broadcaster is not going to carry a series of 52, because it has to build advertisers around that. But yes, I'm very pleased about the number of people we've been able to reach, and this will not stop in terms of further promotion and accessibility, and knowledge.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

A quick question and answer, please.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Right. Just to that point, I'm glad that 35 at least is what you consider young. I appreciate that.

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

Would you be included in that?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think I should be, yes.

I have time for a quick question. If we run out of time, then maybe you could touch on it. Could you describe the mechanics of the relationship with the Veterans Affairs Canada field staff? Obviously they must work very closely with your staff. If you could give the committee time, if there is time, or pick up on it later, how does it work, and is it working well?