Veterans Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Another veteran testified before this committee by the name of Pascal Lacoste. I think you'd be aware that Mr. Lacoste's action was the catalyst that put us on this path and prompted this study. He produced for this committee some testing done on his hair samples. The samples disclosed some very high levels of uranium traces or radioactivity. I don't know the technical term, but I'm sure you do. What comments can you offer with respect to the reliability of the hair sample testing that he provided to the committee?

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

I'm afraid I cannot comment on his particular case. What I can say, however, is that of the 230 CF members and VAC clients who have come forward for uranium and depleted uranium testing within the Canadian Forces, none tested positive for depleted uranium.

I can also say that these results are in line with those of all our other allies. The only consistent positive testing of depleted uranium—I would say around the world—is with a cohort of U.S. veterans that had been involved in a depleted uranium friendly fire. They were victims of it. Some of them have embedded depleted uranium fragments in their bodies.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Are you aware that there's a court in Italy that in 2009 awarded damages against the Italian department of defence of €1.4 million with respect to the family of a Kosovo veteran? The court explicitly found that there was a link between depleted uranium and serious diseases, including Hodgkin lymphoma. Are you familiar with that case?

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

I am familiar with the study. Our epidemiological cell actually looked at a potential link with this disease. They have found no increased evidence of lymphoma in deployed CF members. If I recall correctly, this study attributed this cluster of Hodgkin lymphoma to be a sporadic event that did not specifically affect the deployed personnel and is unlikely to be related to environmental exposures in the Balkans. I believe that was the conclusion of this particular study. Now, as to whether or not they were awarded a pension, I cannot comment, and I cannot comment on the reason why this particular individual was able to receive a pension and if it was for this reason or not. That I don't know.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Doctor, you're talking about a study. I'm talking about an actual case that was litigated before the courts, where the judge found, on the basis of a legal test, that there was a link and accordingly awarded damages. I realize you're talking about an academic document. I'm talking about a legal decision.

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

Yes, okay. I'm not aware of that specific case.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

If the evidence is so clear-cut, what do you make of the fact that the UN General Assembly and the European Parliament, in 2007 and in 2008, each passed resolutions with respect to the imposition of a moratorium on the use of depleted uranium weapons?

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

I am not aware of the motivation of such policy or direction.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

We have to move on, Mr. Casey.

We now move on to Mr. O'Toole, please.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I start, and it's not really a point of order, but Mr. Casey refers to an Italian court decision. I think it would be helpful for the entire committee to see that decision, or a translation he may be referring to. I think it would be germane.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

I believe in the last committee meeting, Mr. O'Toole, we were given documentation.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

No, I mean the actual decision.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

I'll check with the analysts.

It's in Italian right now, but we'll get it translated.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Certainly there's a difference between the decision itself and the award. I think it's pertinent for all of us to see that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Sure.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you very much, Dr. Lalonde.

One of the things I find refreshing about these witness hearings is that we've had some outstanding experts, both Canadian and American, and I appreciate the sharing of information between the scientific community, all focused on serving our veterans. That is just a comment before I start.

I have three questions.

Referring to your 200-person study of veterans, specifically for uranium levels, you stated that there was no evidence of increased uranium levels among Canadian Forces veterans. That was your conclusion.

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

Yes.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

In any statistically significant study, there will be a potential for outliers, people outside of the statistical norm, and that's normal in any general population study.

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

Yes, absolutely. Everybody in the general population excretes various amounts of total uranium levels, depending.... Mainly, when it comes to uranium in particular, a big portion of our exposure comes from our drinking water, actually, just naturally occurring uranium. So everybody does excrete uranium, but to various degrees, and the results of our testing were all within this natural distribution that you'd expect in the general population.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

So because there is the potential for outliers, the study shows that because of the population studied, the conclusion is there's no incidence related to being a part of this specific population of veterans. Maybe I'm not paraphrasing that the right way, but because there's no incidence within that defined population of veterans, a conclusion can be drawn that there is no higher incidence as a result of service.

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

That's right, for those people who came forward, because it was voluntary testing.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Building from that, my second question would be related to conclusion 7 in Dr. Morisset's report. There has been a lot of discussion about idiopathic illness and multi-symptom illnesses that aren't attributable.... In some cases, these have been called Gulf War syndrome or Gulf War illness. Most of the physicians and scientists we've heard from have said excluding DU, given the results of this study, will allow other possible causes of these chronic symptoms to be studied.

Do you agree with that?

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

Yes, I agree.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I think conclusion 7 was carefully worded to acknowledge that there are veterans with real, serious, chronic issues. Dr. Morisset and others said that those symptoms can often be treated specifically, whether or not the cause of the symptoms is known.

Would you agree with that?

[Dr. Janick Lalonde]

Yes. I'm not a physician myself, but I would assume so.