Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It was circulated today. Okay. I haven't had a chance to see it yet, so can I ask that we defer it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes. We did this because we have a few meetings on the rehab contract and we have meals to do on Thursday. We have an additional $1,600 in the budget to adopt. I would like to know if there is any discussion about that.

Does the committee want to adopt the supplementary budget? There is no objection.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Madam Clerk, the budget is therefore approved. I am going to sign the document.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. Both of them are on Zoom.

From the Department of Veterans Affairs, we have, by video conference, Nathan Svenson, director of research, and Lisa Garland Baird, senior researcher.

Mr. Svenson, you have five minutes for your opening remarks. After that, we will go to questions from members of the committee.

Please go ahead.

[Nathan Svenson, Director, Research, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear as a witness, and thank you for undertaking this important study.

I'm here in Charlottetown with my colleague Dr. Lisa Garland Baird, who has a Ph.D. in nursing and is a senior researcher, as mentioned, at Veterans Affairs. She's working to advance research on women veterans.

I want to start by acknowledging that, unlike Colonel Jardine, I am not a woman and have no military service. However, I'm speaking to the committee about the experiences of women veterans. While I can speak about research that has been done or is under way on this topic, there is a limit to the value of human research—especially this research—when we fail to interpret it through the lens of lived experience. Their voices are essential.

The perspective I can share is that of someone who has gradually moved away from the notion that quantitative data is the singular goal, or even the best form of evidence. When it comes to veterans, who are mostly men, the realities for women are often concealed under aggregate numbers that convey the very different realities faced by men.

For example, veterans as a whole experience very little decline in income when they leave the military, as mentioned earlier. They very quickly regain and exceed their pre-release income levels. However, this is the story for men. Looking just at women veterans, we see a decline in income of almost 20% in their first year after release. Consider that in recent years, the proportion of military members who release for medical reasons is approaching one-third. That's quite high. The rate for women, over the same period, is considerably higher, at 42%.

Some trends are comparable between women and men veterans. Both, as mentioned, have similarly high rates of PTSD and back problems. Though every phase of the military life course is different for them, we encounter key differences between the experiences of men and women. We know women don't stay in the military as long as men do. We know they are more likely to suffer sexual trauma during service. We know that while they are just as likely to become officers, women release at lower ranks. We know women are more likely to release to be a caregiver. We know that once they release, they are more likely to work part time. We know they have more complex combinations of health conditions. This contributes to longer benefit application processing times. We know they have a higher risk of dying by suicide than women of the same age in the general population. It's still a lower rate than that of veteran men, but the risk for women does not diminish with age as it does for men.

These are trends that have been difficult to learn about and measure over time. There's obviously more to learn, but we have a lot of positive momentum that I'll group into a few categories.

First, the women veteran community is increasingly engaged across the department. VAC has established an office of women and LGBTQ2 veterans. VAC has launched the Let's Talk Veterans engagement platform. VAC has dedicated funding for community-based organizations focused on women veterans through the veteran and family well-being fund.

Second, there is a growing network of researchers in Canada looking specifically at topics of concern to women veterans. Several research interest groups and communities of practice have recently launched. There are new researchers entering the field of veteran well-being research and tackling challenging issues like women veteran homelessness. They're also increasing international veteran research collaborations.

Third, VAC is applying emerging best practices to respond to the needs identified through research and evidence. For example, VAC has established a dedicated team to process disability benefit applications from women. VAC is modernizing its table of disabilities, with gender equity in decision-making as a core principle. This includes updating entitlement eligibility guidelines to reflect additional sex-specific conditions. VAC has promoted a trauma-informed philosophy across its frontline services and claims processing. VAC has adopted the principles of sex and gender equity in research, or SAGER, to ensure sex and gender impacts are considered at every phase of research, from study design and participant recruitment to data analysis and knowledge mobilization.

Finally, there are new and better data sources supporting gender disaggregated analysis. The 2021 census was a major milestone in describing the veteran population. Starting in 2022, the new Canadian veteran health survey measures veteran well-being in multiple domains across the entire veteran population in Canada.

From what I have seen across the department, Veterans Affairs is genuinely looking to improve on every front when it comes to providing equitable services and programs. I look forward to the committee's report on this study and how it will improve our understanding of the needs, challenges and perspectives of women veterans.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Svenson.

I'd like to remind you that if you have notes or any additional information to provide the committee, do not hesitate to give that to our clerk. It would be so appreciated.

We will now go to the first round of questions.

I'd like to invite Mrs. Cathay Wagantall to take her six minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you both for being here this evening. I really appreciate this.

This is a good segue from what we heard from the ombudsman and some of the research going on there. Of course, she's an individual who has served very admirably, and we really appreciate her feedback as well.

What I am hearing—and we're just beginning this study, so I appreciate that as well—is that you're just on the cusp of beginning to do some things to ensure you're giving focus specifically to women veterans. Would that be accurate?

[Nathan Svenson]

Yes, that would be accurate. If we back up 20 years, there was very little research on veteran well-being at all in Canada. It was very difficult to collect data about the veteran population. Until recently, I would say, it has remained difficult. Even in our targeted studies, it's still difficult to recruit individual veterans.

What has changed in the past few years, really, is our access to administrative data from veterans who are releasing from the armed forces. We have more and more data shared by the Department of National Defence confidentially with Veterans Affairs so we can paint a picture—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate it. I have a few questions here and I want to make sure I get your responses.

What I struggle with is the whole process of transitioning from the armed forces to Veterans Affairs. I've been on this committee for eight years now, and quite honestly this issue has been front and centre for all eight of those years. We're just beginning to realize the struggles. We've been talking about women in the armed forces for over 20 years now, yet we're just beginning to take a look at these things.

What is the communication like in regard to what you need to hear about women's service in your relationship with DND? When someone is transitioning, do you feel that women have the same services available to them to make that transition? Should they be the same, or are we in a situation where we're trying to fit two square scenarios into...where one is a circle and one is a square? I won't say which one is a square.

[Nathan Svenson]

We had that same question. We funded a study by Dr. Maya Eichler, who was mentioned earlier, from Mount Saint Vincent University. She conducted a longitudinal, qualitative study of women veterans who were releasing from the armed forces, starting before they released and continuing after their release period.

Perhaps I'll turn it over to my colleague Dr. Lisa Garland Baird for some additional information on that.

[Dr. Lisa Garland Baird, Senior Researcher, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you for the question.

This particular study was very interesting in its findings. Again, it looked at a cohort of women members and veterans over the course of two years who were interviewed at three different intervals. Of course, the purpose of that study was to understand what the differences were for women in their military-to-civilian transition.

I think some of the main findings that came from that study speak to the need to look between the lines when we look at smaller groups. In one of the cases, the findings demonstrated that women veterans later, as they released, recognized they had some health issues that they didn't identify when they first released from the military, which they wished they could respond to.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Can I just interrupt there? That same scenario applies to men as well. They release and then it's much later on in time. It's interesting. I think we really have to try to determine what is typical for a veteran versus what is specific to women.

I wouldn't say VAC has done a study, but I understand they're determining differences between the men and the women. They have lumped the women who serve with the wives and widows and are getting their stats and feedback from that. Is that the same scenario here, or are you dealing specifically with the women who served?

[Dr. Lisa Garland Baird]

I would just like to add a point of clarification, because a really good point was made about the fact that there are similar findings for men and women as they release. What women in particular were talking about were things related to reproductive and sexual health. They did not potentially have access to screening prior to release or it was not part of their medical release. There are some very specific pieces from that study that we can point to to see the differences.

With respect to the 2022 VAC national client survey, it is true that this cohort includes survivors and women veterans. The challenge with that survey is that it has a small sample size. At this point in time, it's about 3,400 clients—everyone who received services—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Can I ask a brief question? I know I'm out of time, Chair.

How many women veterans do you actually know the whereabouts of? How many are you able to access?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 10 seconds.

[Dr. Lisa Garland Baird]

We have veterans administration data. That is how we pull our sample frame.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mrs. Wagantall.

Now I have Mr. Churence Rogers for six minutes, please.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

We knew this study would be an interesting one, and it's turning into quite an interesting study just from listening to some of the initial witnesses.

Mr. Svenson, I want to focus on the office that VAC opened in 2019, the office of women and LGBTQ2 veterans. Could you tell us more about the exact purpose of that office? What has the office for these groups done since its opening?

[Nathan Svenson]

The objective of that office is to address some of the underlying challenges faced by women veterans who are coming to the department—and those who aren't—and ensuring that the access to services is equitable across the department. The office has a very broad scope. They consult with areas and every function across the department at every level to ensure that when each area is administering its own responsibilities, it is keeping in mind the needs and concerns of women and LGBTQ2 veterans who might otherwise be experiencing barriers to access or barriers to programs and services.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Could you speak a bit about some of the feedback the department received when you held a women and LGBTQ2 forum? What kind of feedback did you get overall?

[Nathan Svenson]

The first women veterans' forum was held in 2019. I was there. It was a wonderful experience and full of energy. It was the first of its kind in Canada to discuss the specific challenges women face in their lives after service.

From my perspective, I was listening for the research opportunities and the research gaps that were raised. There were many. In fact, I was stunned at how prominently research as a theme was raised by all the stakeholders there. Some of the research opportunities raised there included infertility; menopause; mental health; social issues; homelessness; transition from military to civilian life, including the financial impacts, some of which we have already touched on; intersectionality and cultural differences among under-represented veterans, in particular indigenous, francophone and LGBTQ2+ perspectives; and a number of other categories.

That feedback was all taken back to the department and carefully reviewed. We looked for opportunities to embark on research, where feasible, in those areas.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

One statement a previous witness made that struck me was that in transitioning to civilian life, when you take off your uniform you don't know who you are. That resonated strongly with me. Is that a common kind of feeling you get from people when you do all these interviews? What are they thinking about for their future? Is “Where do I go from here when I walk out the door?” a common refrain you hear from all veterans?

[Nathan Svenson]

I think the concept of maintaining a purpose in life is a theme, at least, that's common across men and women veterans. I would say that it's one of the more difficult aspects to cover in quantitative research, and this is a reason, an argument, for including more qualitative research to better understand the individual stories and experiences of veterans where the numbers don't tell the whole story.

The analogy I like to use is that the data we have is simply the mortar that binds together the stones of lived experience into a foundation of understanding. Quantitative and qualitative research need to validate each other. They're both essential to supporting informed policies and impactful programs.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'll ask you the question this way: What stigmas do you find are unique to female veterans that they have to actively work to overcome in order to be successful post-service?

[Nathan Svenson]

I'll turn the question over to Dr. Garland Baird.

[Dr. Lisa Garland Baird]

Very quickly, one of the findings of the previous study we discussed—from Dr. Maya Eichler—talked about women veterans experiencing age as an issue as they re-entered or tried to re-enter the workplace. That was a concern. Not only did they feel it contributed to deteriorating health, but they saw it as a barrier to employment. Many women spoke about experiencing ageism, as well as not being seen as a veteran by employers because they did not fit the traditional vision of what employers would think a veteran would look like.