Veterans Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

In my riding of Mississauga—Streetsville, I proudly have Legion 139. The work they do is tremendous.

Thank you, Mr. Clark, for answering my questions.

[Steven Clark]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Clark, as you know, we have interpretation.

We will continue with the second vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Luc Desilets.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Clark, for being with us. It is always a pleasure to hear from you. Your life experience and your experience as a military man colour this discussion in a very interesting way.

One thing really caught my eye earlier. You'll excuse my ignorance; yet I've been to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier several times.

Are there any signs describing what it's about, or prohibition signs, for example?

[Steven Clark]

There are no panels up other than the plaque that is inset in the ground in front of the tomb. In fact, having interpretive panels around the site is something the Legion had brought up a number of years ago. We had initial discussions with Canadian Heritage, but we did not pursue that further. Perhaps now is the time to do that so that we can talk about not only the tomb, why it is there and what it stands for, but also the inscriptions that are on the memorial—the First and Second World Wars, Afghanistan, South African war—so that people can get a better understanding of exactly what the sanctity of this site represents.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I am a former school principal. No matter how much you explain things to young people, sometimes it's not enough. The idea of putting up a sign or signs to set boundaries or restrictions may seem ridiculous, but young adults and adults alike could better understand the meaning, importance or symbolism of it all.

Personally, I would encourage you strongly to do this. Just because a 25-year-old adult does something stupid on such a symbolic monument doesn't mean they don't have the mental age of a 15-year-old. That being said, I really like this idea and I think it's mostly about education in this area.

Your paper alludes to the Inuksuk memorial, dedicated to Afghanistan veterans, which was also desecrated or vandalized, 10 years ago. What struck me about this was that those who did the deeds were known, but no one was held accountable.

Do you have any more information on that? Why weren't they held accountable?

[Steven Clark]

That's an interesting question, but I have to say one thing about that. The monument was extremely heavy, so to topple it was a deliberate act. The outpouring of support from the community to help restore, replace and shore up that memorial was simply outstanding.

One thing that did strike me was that for weeks afterward that memorial was tended to, kept clean and kept free of any kind of debris, rocks, grass or anything. In my mind, I thought whoever perpetrated that act perhaps had a moment of reflection, realized what they did was wrong and as their way of penance took care of that memorial. It's completely unfounded, but I would like to think that whoever did it initially realized the error of their ways and tried to make amends.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It would be nice if that were the case.

Do you have any recommendations for us, as we have to table a report and recommendations in the House?

It is true that this event took place in a very particular context, as the city of Ottawa was occupied by thousands of people and people from the extreme right.

Given this context, despite everything, do you have any recommendations for the protection of these monuments?

[Steven Clark]

I would not want to see anything permanent put in place. Again, remembrances are very personal expressions of honour and thanks. We don't want to do anything that's permanent. Having signage in place would help. We need to focus also on education. Veterans Affairs Canada does a superb job with the teaching materials they make available to schools and youth, all free of charge. That needs to continue to receive support.

Simply, it's raising awareness. That is where we need to start. Again, we need to start with our youth. That's why I'm so focused on the importance of education. We can't regulate remembrance. That's important. We have to make sure it remains spontaneous. Whatever we do, we can't regulate it.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I totally agree with you. Also, repression does not necessarily produce results. I am very interested in the notion of awareness raising, which you mentioned.

In your program, is the importance of monuments and their symbolism addressed?

Shouldn't there be some publicity to explain a little bit about them?

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely. The Legion produces every year a teaching guide. We make it available to teachers across the country to talk about the importance of various remembrance initiatives and symbols, with memorials being one. We have been asked from time to time if memorials glorify war. That could not be further from the truth. Memorials are an expression and a remembrance of what those before us have done so that we are in the position we are in now in society. We have to make sure that people understand exactly what the memorials stand for.

Interestingly, the Canadian memorial database is a repository of 8,200 known memorials and cenotaphs across the country. There are memorials in virtually every community. It's important that the students in those communities liaise to understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Clark.

Mr. Desilets, your time is up.

Let's turn the mike over to Ms. Rachel Blaney for six minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Clark. It's very good to see you before the committee again. I want to thank you for your service, of course, and for the many ways in which you've done that service. I think that needs to be recognized as well.

For me, this is really sad. It's really hard that we have to have this discussion. I think it's important that people understand what this means. It's a place of remembrance. I'm from B.C. and my constituents have flown all the way to Ottawa. I've met with them and we've gone to the tomb. They're either veterans or they are the loved ones of people who have served. They've brought mementoes, and those mementoes are received. They're taken underneath and held there. People feel such gratefulness that the picture of their loved one or some memento is there, and that it's held.

I'm just wondering if you could speak to the committee, but also to all Canadians, about how important this particular memorial is across this country, and about how it's more than just what we see above ground. It's also what's below and held in remembrance.

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely. You have to look back at when the government first started the competition to construct this memorial back in 1925. Their vision at that time was to keep alive the spirit of heroism and self-sacrifice. They wanted it to represent everything that was noble and great, exemplified by those who sacrificed their lives at that time in the First World War.

For people who stop by the memorial now and leave mementoes of their loved ones, those who were among the 118,000 Canadians who fell in service to this country, it is their connection with their lost loved one. It is with an individual who no longer has a voice and yet is represented by monuments and memorials such as this one. It's very important to establish that connection and keep the connection. Knowing that whatever they leave will not be discarded, but will be retained, is personally satisfying to those individuals. I'm so happy that this continues.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

That was probably one of the most concerning parts for me. I read an article about a veteran who had seen that people were parking near the monument. He went there to take photos of their licence plates because he wanted them to be held to account, as I think many veterans would feel. Sadly, he was threatened with physical violence. I thought, “What a terrible outcome of this situation.”

My next question is really about acknowledging the trauma that this kind of desecration could have on people who have served our country. Today I'm here in Campbell River. We have the Wounded Warriors, whom I know the Legion supports, who are doing a run right now to fundraise to bring awareness to people about post-traumatic stress disorder, to understand that our veterans, our military, our folks who are on the front lines—our police, our firefighters, our paramedics—are out there fighting and they have this.

I wonder if you could speak to the impact—maybe unintentional. I will assume that some of the veterans who were there felt that they were protecting it, and I want to respect that. However, I also want to respect that the impact we just saw could have had a profound effect on people, especially those who have served and are struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder.

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely. In fact, we heard from our Legion OSI special section about that very thing. That memorial stands for all who have served and fallen in military service. It's not for one particular mission or war. Of late, with the war in Afghanistan, we've seen 40,000 Canadian Armed Forces members participate in that particular operation.

Our OSI section was contacted by people who were so adversely affected by what they had seen. It felt like personal disrespect that had been shown to those individuals. It's just very hard to vocalize the impact that you, as an individual who served your country, are seeing now, the disrespect that is shown by the people who you thought were supporting you when you went overseas.

I know the special section reached out to those individuals as much as they could. They offered sessions where they could get together to talk about it. Discussing and talking helps alleviate the pain, but the pain never goes away and this act worsens it.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I only have a minute left. I really want to acknowledge how much you've made it clear that the importance of public access cannot be minimized.

[Steven Clark]

No.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Would it maybe be appropriate to have protocols so that, when we know a larger protest or, in this case, an occupation is coming, we protect the monuments?

There are more monuments than just the tomb. Of course, just down the street, we have the Korean War monument and the National Aboriginal Veterans Monument. Would it be a good step that we put protection up right away, before the people even arrive, to set that tone of respect?

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely. Preparedness is key.

Take a look at previous large-scale occupations or protests, for example, in 2002, the G8 “take the streets” Ottawa protest. We would have learned from that. Policing agencies would have learned. Apply what you've learned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney, and thank you, Mr. Clark.

For the next five minutes, the questions will be asked by Ms. Anna Roberts.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank Mr. Clark. We respect you and appreciate everything you do to help us have the freedoms and enjoy the freedoms that we do in this country. It's very important to me.

We have two monuments in my riding. This year, I witnessed both of them, and what I really appreciated was having the children from the school participate. Because of the lockdowns, unfortunately things were scaled back, but in the past we have had that opportunity.

One of our monuments is in a community centre area. The veterans come into the community. There's a small gesture where we offer tea, coffee, cookies or whatever. The young children are allowed to come to speak with them, learn about the war and understand that the reason they live in a society such as ours is that we had people like you who went and fought for our freedoms.

Earlier you mentioned education. Would you not agree that it would be more important to have the one-on-one personal aspect in education prior to Remembrance Day and have the young children involved to better understand why we have these freedoms?

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely. Having a base knowledge, that main level of understanding, is important. This supplements or enhances that. That speaks to what John McCrae talked about in his poem In Flanders Fields—passing the torch. You're passing on information. You're passing on lived experiences, and it's important to get those lived experiences while veterans are still here to share that information. It's extremely important, and I agree with you.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

When these acts—I call them acts of violence—occur, would it not be beneficial that the individuals...? You mentioned earlier that, really, a financial situation is of no benefit. Would it not be a combination of both having the financial burden put on the individual and also having that individual commit to either participating with the Legion, understanding, speaking to veterans and maybe even volunteering?

We ask our students in Ontario to volunteer so many hours in order to obtain their high school diploma. I'm not suggesting to treat it as a punishment but maybe as a leaning experience, so that they could go back and maybe speak to their classmates or other adults, depending on who the perpetrator is.

[Steven Clark]

Definitely. The Legion has been involved in a couple of instances exactly as you explained, but you added on a very good point that I did not. It's great that the individual understands from the personal perspective of veterans what they've gone through, but then they go back and pass on that information. I think that's very important, and I like that they are sharing what they have learned so that, hopefully, others will learn from their experiences. That is a very good point.