Evidence of meeting #74 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wong.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caleigh Wong  As an Individual
Stephanie Hayward  Veteran, As an Individual

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 74 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

For the first hour, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee will resume its study on the experience of women veterans.

For the first hour we have two witnesses, but we are trying to get in touch with Ms. Hayward because the sound check was not going so well. We will pursue that.

For the second hour the committee will proceed to the consideration of matters related to committee business.

Today's meeting is being held in hybrid format, in accordance with the standing order. Members my participate in person or via Zoom.

As to interpretation, those participating via Zoom may choose the French audio, the English audio or the floor audio.

Although this room has a high-quality audio system, there can be feedback that can injure the interpreters. So we ask you not to place the earpiece close the microphone to prevent such feedback and ensure that we can continue the meeting and avoid causing problems for our interpreters.

In accordance with the routine motion, the connection tests have been done or we will continue doing them.

I would like to provide a trigger warning because we will be talking about veterans' experiences.

Before we welcome our witnesses, we will be talking about experiences related to mental health. This may be triggering to the people here, to viewers, committee members and their staff who have had similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk promptly.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide this trigger warning. We may be discussing experiences related to general health and mental health. This may be triggering to viewers, members or staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

We have with us Ms. Caleigh Wong, who is here as an individual. We also have, via video conference, Stephanie Hayward, who is a veteran.

You will have around five minutes for your opening statement. After that, members of the committee will ask you some questions.

If you don't mind, I am going to start with you, Ms. Wong. You are here, and you have five minutes for your opening statement. Please go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

Caleigh Wong As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I worry that I might go over by a minute or two, so I hope you'll forgive me.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging the relative privilege I've had in my military experience. Unlike many witnesses who have come before you, and unlike many women who have served in the CAF, I have never experienced aggravated rape. I was also a reservist who served for only five years and deployed once on a six-month tour to Latvia. I never planned on the CAF being a lifelong career, and without significant bills to pay or a family to support, I always had the option to leave.

I'm here because I believe I can offer the perspective of someone who has had a foot in both worlds—as an operational soldier for a time and as a student and advocate whose work has largely centred on discrimination in the CAF.

In this opening statement, I aim to speak mostly about the two most formative experiences I had in the CAF, mainly my BMQ, or basic military qualification, and my pre-deployment and deployment experiences.

I joined the primary army reserves when I was 18 years old. I completed my BMQ and BMQ-L by 19 and my trades training by 20, and I was deployed when I was 21 years old. I released last year at age 23.

In the lead-up to my BMQ course, I was posted to a base on general duty as an untrained private while I awaited my course start date. During this time, a significantly older service member—a man—made unwanted advances at me, referencing an Asian fetish that he had. This person also made jokes about keeping child pornography on his computer. Someone other than me reported him. However, as the victim of interest, I was the one whom the report focused on specifically from that point on. The officer I spoke to told me I would be asked to testify at a proceeding for the incident and that I should not speak to this person any longer.

As far as I know, there was never a charge and there was never any follow-up with me. At the time, this service member was punished by being assigned meal hall duty, where he would count service members as they came in for their daily meals. This meant that I saw him three times a day, every day, when he tried to talk to me. I later learned this was not his first offence. He was described, generally, as a “crazy but harmless” soldier whom people just learned to tolerate. This all happened to me during my first full-time work in the CAF.

During this time, I was introduced to the military culture I would spend the rest of my career trying to push back against—the culture that called the knee pad inserts that went into our trousers “promotion pads”, that had male staff in my basic training discussing plans to sleep with certain female students after the course was over, and that has an incredible tolerance for discrimination and sexual violence.

There was an attempted rape in camp during the first couple of weeks that I was deployed in Latvia. The victim was a Canadian woman who, while only seeing the rapist in the dark and from the back as he ran away, believed him to be a Canadian man. For my rotation, there were 500-some Canadian soldiers on base, but only the 30 or so Canadian women were talked to about this event. The proposed solution by the command team was to employ a buddy system among women soldiers and to discontinue use of the all-gender sauna. The men in the battle group, as far as I'm aware, were never spoken to about this incident.

In Latvia, I repeatedly heard my male colleagues and even superiors talk openly about their fantasies or the sexual experiences they'd had with women soldiers around the camp. I heard my female colleague get told to “not play the gender card” while she was bringing up concerns she had to her male superior. I heard one of my male colleagues talk about a Snapchat group where men from his regiment shared photos of themselves wearing their regimental caps during sex, at times without the knowledge or consent of the women involved in the sex they were having. One male colleague of mine, during our pre-deployment training, consistently overstepped articulated boundaries I had set, including groping me, especially during events where drinking was involved, of which there were many.

During my deployment and also during my career, I heard countless stories of soldiers committing or attempting to commit sexual assault against either civilians or female service members. Even after these events came to light or were reported, many of them were simply moved to other units or, at worst, demoted one rank.

There seems to be doublethink present in the minds of a lot of male Canadian soldiers: Sexual misconduct issues are being “shoved down their throats” and this whole topic in the CAF has created a witch hunt, but at the same time, I believe there's a general attitude of being able to get away with such acts of sexual violence because this has so consistently been the case with the people and stories we hear about every day in the workplace.

The majority of women I've met in the CAF have experienced some form of sexual harassment or assault in their career. Someone very close to me was sexually assaulted during her trades training course. Despite going through the arduous, oftentimes belittling process of reporting, she continues to work with her assaulter on a near-daily basis.

Throughout my career, I've heard different men of almost every rank talk about how they feel women deserve the hardship they go through in the military. There's an unequivocal attitude that we as women are just barely tolerated guests in this men's domain. The best of us—by that I mean the most agreeable, the ones who can navigate the rape jokes, sexualized culture and misogyny with grace and humour—are bestowed the ultimate honour for a woman in the military: being one of the boys.

I feel that there is a general deep incompetency of most military leaders to deal with sexual violence in their ranks. I also perceive a deep unwillingness to do so as well. I see and have felt a deep pressure to not report, and I've seen and felt a deep incapacity of this organization to deal with the cases of the people who do step forward.

To close, I want to share two journal entries of mine that I found while preparing for this witness testimony. The first is from about halfway through my deployment. It reads:

Now here I am. Over halfway through a 6-month deployment, and I’ve grown so accustomed to melancholy. It feels normal to me. There are always good moments of course (especially when I drink). But generally I am sad. I feel defeated by this institution most days. I think a lot about what its going to be like that first time I am back home and sit down at Rachel’s place surrounded by my friends and I’ll unpack what this experience has been like. And its going to be heartbreaking, for them too I know. To confess how unhappy I’ve been, but mostly how ashamed they would have been with me if they saw how much of a bystander I was, how silent I was for so many hateful moments. But I think its even more challenging to reflect on what kind of person I will be after all this – how this will change me in a way that will show forever. I think, to some degree, I will always carry this defeat. This loss of faith in something I once really believed in, this disenchantment with the organization and the belief in the potential for things to get better. I guess that’s all just growing up, but a lot of growing up has happened in these 3 months. And I think when you have to grow up fast, you grow up a little different than had you otherwise would have given the grace of time.

The second entry is much shorter, and it's from much later, after I got back from Latvia. It reads:

It’s been a year since I’ve returned home from Latvia. These [entries] aren’t about that experience anymore, which is crazy to say. For a time it felt like life would always be relative to that experience. And that’s not to say that I’ve reclaimed the woman I was and the qualities I had before I left. In fact, I am slowly coming to terms with the possibility that I may never see that girl again. That I may never get my mojo back. And I have been making peace with that. I am not all the way there yet, but I am making my way.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much, Ms. Wong. Thank you also for your service.

It takes a lot of courage to talk about this in front of the camera and in front of people. Thank you very much.

We're going to take a one-minute break to make sure that we have a good connection with the next witness, Ms. Hayward.

The meeting is suspended for a few seconds.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Let us resume.

Unfortunately, Ms. Hayward is still having some computer issues. We will begin the question period with Ms. Wong and those in the room while the technician keeps trying to fix Ms. Hayward's problem.

By the way, Ms. Hayward has provided a lot of documents in support of her presentation.

I would also like to say to Ms. Wong that we're going to take a five-minute break during this session. If you need me to stop, just let me know.

We're going to start with the first round of questions of six minutes each.

I invite MP Cathay Wagantall for six minutes, please.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you so much, Chair. Through you, welcome, Caleigh. It's an honour to have you in this room.

I was able to have an extended conversation with you a couple of times back in 2021 when we discussed the potential of this being dealt with someday through a study. Here we are, quite a while later.

I really appreciated your honesty and your professionalism in the way that you have moved forward with this circumstance in your life.

I want to refer to your journal. The first comment that you made from it was just shortly after you had returned home. Is that correct, the one that you read to us, or was that during your time there?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

I read two. The first one was during my time there—halfway through—and the shorter one at the end was after I returned home.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

You indicated in the first one that you were really unhappy with yourself and that you felt ashamed for not stepping up and speaking up more.

How old were you?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

I was 21.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

How long had you been in that situation, trying to deal with this interference and inappropriateness in your life?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

The neat answer would be, at that point, three months, or the six-month span I was in Latvia. I continued to do work when I was back at home, but obviously the deployment environment is very different. There it is inescapable. I was posted, and with COVID, we weren't allowed to leave the camp for an extended period of time, so I would say there were six months of....

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Prison?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

—inescapable military culture.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Okay. Thank you.

We talked in the past about this, and I asked you a question back then. I asked if you thought that somehow all of this could be handled and changed internally. At that point in time, you said you didn't think so.

What is your perspective on that now? Clearly, this is systemic and it needs to be dealt with, but just from some of your short conversations with us today, I appreciate the challenges in what that would involve.

Do you have any recommendations for this committee to say, “Listen, this is what needs to happen”?

At this point in time, would you encourage your daughter some day to enlist?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

To answer your last question first, it's a conversation I've had with different friends of mine. I think I would, with a theoretical daughter I might have one day, probably try to discourage her from enlisting, but as a woman who has been in the forces, I would never try to stop her. I think that's my answer.

In terms of the internal potential for change, I would somewhat maintain my answer that I gave you those years ago, but maybe with a bit more nuance. I don't think there's a neat internal capacity for this issue to be solved. For a number of reasons, I do not think the structure of the military and the way that everything from culture change to battlefield orders is disseminated through the chain of command are the model that helps facilitate meaningful structural change of an organization.

That being said, though, I think there need to be internal champions for this issue, because we've seen over the decades, with the various scandals that have come to light about the Canadian Forces, that the external pressure is never constant. Even though it's something that needs to coincide with an internal movement, for something to go about that, there needs to be pressure from both sides.

I think the challenge externally is to sustain that pressure. I think the challenge internally is to highlight, select and empower leaders who may showcase characteristics that we wouldn't traditionally associate with powerful, impressive military leadership, but those are the people who would be most able to establish the change that we're looking to establish.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Regarding your first experience with this person above you, how long was it after your very first exposure to the military? I think it was very close to the beginning of your....

4:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

Right. Yes. I joined in November 2017, and then my first full-time contract started in May 2018, so it would have been late May or early June when this happened.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you.

You commented that people said he was simply a “harmless” soldier. I can't imagine what it was like to hear the word “harmless” attached to this individual. Can you expand a bit on what that did to you? Are you comfortable doing that?

4:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

Yes. Of course.

You're absolutely right. It was a hard thing to hear and a weird thing to hear being assigned to someone who had said such problematic things—not just about me, but other stuff he had said.

For me, in some ways it set the tone of what to expect going forward in this organization. Here was a man in his forties, maybe, going after a 19-year-old girl who hadn't completed her basic training or anything like that, and making these incredibly inappropriate jokes about child pornography, etc.

For that to be written off by the people around me, saying, “Oh, you know, that corporal has a reputation”.... He was known for saying these really, they would say, “out-of-pocket things” or whatever, but they always just sent him back to his unit in Cape Breton and hid him away there until the next rotation or the next summer season came around.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

In that environment, then—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I'm sorry, but the time is up. I'm so sorry, Mrs. Wagantall.

We have to go to Mr. Miao for six minutes. MP Miao, please go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your appearance today.

Ms. Wong, may I call you Caleigh?

Thank you for being here and for sharing your story. I must say it does take some courage and bravery to share this with us and I really thank you for the service you've done.

I know that in your remarks you have shared the stories of what happened. Before I go on with my question, can you share with us what led you to want to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces?

4:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

Absolutely. Thank you for your question, sir.

I came to Canada when I was 12. I was born in Malaysia. My mom is Canadian and my dad is Malaysian.

When I first came here as a young person, there was a real enchantment with Canada as a project, as a nation. There were rights afforded to me here that would never happen in Malaysia. Especially for me as a queer woman, the reality of my life here is just so different, so much richer than what could be true, at least publicly, in Malaysia.

I had a big romantic idea of Canada for many years of my youth after I'd first moved here. When I was 15, a recruiter came to my high school and talked about the reserves and about how it was something you could do through university. I never wanted it to be my full career, but I think it combined with the ideas of adventure and of helping pay for school and opportunities for challenge and growth. A very big part of that was the sentimentality I had about the Canadian project, and to a degree a sense of nationalism about Canada. That's probably why I joined.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

After you joined the CAF, was what you experienced something you thought would be part of it? Before you joined the CAF, were you expecting that something like this would happen to you?

4:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Caleigh Wong

No, I was certainly not.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC

Was an investigation made when you reported the incident to your superior? What kind of action was taken, other than demoting the person's rank, as you mentioned?