Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Good morning. I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 84 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Although the room is equipped with a high-quality audio system, feedback can occur. This can be extremely detrimental to the interpreters and can cause them serious injury. When you are wearing your earpiece, please do not get too close to the mike, to prevent this interference.

Keep in mind that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Lastly, this is a reminder to committee members to send their recommendations for the draft report on the experience of women veterans to the clerk by next Wednesday, March 6.

Before I introduce our witnesses, I have a request from Ms. Blaney, who would like to say something.

Ms. Blaney, the floor is yours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I just want to read into the record a motion on notice. I will not be moving it today, of course, out of respect for the witnesses we have here, but I want to make sure it's on the record. It says:

That, in relation to its study on the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan, the committee:

a) Invite the Deputy Commander of Military Personnel, Lieutenant-General Lise Bourgon; and

b) Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), order the production of all memoranda, briefing notes, emails, correspondence or any other records of conversations or communications (including text messages, Microsoft Teams messages, WhatsApp messages, Signal messages or other electronic messaging), with regard to the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan, transmitted, since November 8th, 2021, between:

i) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs,

ii) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Privy Council Office,

iii) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the members of the jury responsible for evaluating the finalist designs for the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan,

iv) the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage,

v) the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Privy Council Office,

vi) the Privy Council Office and the Office of the Prime Minister,

vii) the Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Prime Minister, and

viii) the Office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Office of the Prime Minister, provided that these documents shall be provided to the Clerk of the Committee, in both official languages and without redaction, within 21 days of the adoption of this motion.

c) And that the Department of Veterans Affairs Canada and the Department of Canadian Heritage provide the official report of the jury established for the selection of the firm responsible for the design of the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan.

Thank you so much, Chair.

I would just like to say—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me. We have a point of order, Ms. Blaney.

Mr. Richards, go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have an argument to make from Bosc and Gagnon, but I would ask that you indulge me for a couple of moments just so I can provide a little context before citing it.

Back in November and six times since, I brought forward a motion that we put on notice. I'll read the motion, because I think it's important that the committee hear this for deliberation on the point of order. It said, “That, in relation to its study on the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan, the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs—”

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We're on a point of order already. I'd like to listen carefully, and I will go back to you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

The chair has given me the latitude to explain my point of order before making it.

The motion says:

That, in relation to its study on the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan, the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs

a) call the Deputy Commander of Military Personnel, Lieutenant-General Lise Bourgon; and

b) order the production of all memoranda, briefing notes, e-mails, correspondence or any other records of conversations or communications (including text messages, Microsoft Teams messages, WhatsApp messages, Signal messages or other electronic messaging), with regard to the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan, transmitted, since November 8th, 2021, between

(i) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs,

(ii) the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage,

(iii) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Privy Council Office,

(iv) the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Privy Council Office,

(v) the Privy Council Office and the Office of the Prime Minister,

(vi) the Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Prime Minister, and

(vii) the Office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Office of the Prime Minister, provided that these documents shall be provided to the Clerk of the Committee, in both official languages and without redaction, within 21 days of the adoption of this motion.

If this sounds familiar, you'll note that it's all contained within the motion we just heard, which, I will point out, has been brought forward several times and could have been voted on two months ago had the NDP member voted for the motion and not adjourned the meeting.

Since then, on February 12, the Bloc moved an amendment asking that the motion be amended by adding the following after paragraph (b): “c) And that the Department of Veterans Affairs Canada and the Department of Canadian Heritage provide the official report—”

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

This is debate, Mr. Chair.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

It's not a point of order.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It is a point of order.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Under what standing order is it?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Let me finish.

It says, “c) And that the Department of Veterans Affairs Canada and the Department of Canadian Heritage provide the official report of the jury established for the selection of the firm responsible for the design of the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan.”

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

The point I'm making here, Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, go to the point.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

If you look at these two motions, one motion is entirely the other two motions, with one exception. The exception is—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

It's debate. Where's the point of order?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

The exception is the following. There was previously an amendment moved by the Liberal Party asking that the motion be amended by adding, after subparagraph (b)(vii), the following: “And that Veterans Affairs Canada produce any correspondence received from members of the jury responsible for evaluating the finalist designs”.

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Richards, let me say something, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It's not debate, Chair. Let me finish. I'm about to get to the point. The motion—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Context is important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Just a second. Let me tell you something. We can have a lot of motions on the same subject, so I understand—