Debates of May 4th, 1995

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Perrin Beatty is one of them.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

As the member for Beaver River said, Perrin Beatty certainly seems to be doing all right for himself as are many of his colleagues and many former Liberals. With the quality of Reformers I am sure they will do well when they decide to leave political life.

Before the budget when anti-tax rallies were being held across the country I had the privilege of attending one in Saskatoon. The people in that crowd did not want to see higher taxes. They told us in no uncertain terms to tell the government not to increase taxes in the budget. It did not listen. It brought in higher taxes. The people also said in no uncertain terms that the government had no right to increase taxes as long as it had a gold plated pension plan.

I remember one person who came to the microphone and said: "I know MPs work hard but I work just as hard as they do. I make $20,000 a year and I do not get any pension. Why should they get an immoral pension, one that is so extravagant, just because they get to design their own pensions and I do not?"

It is unfair. We should not be designing extravagant, lavish pension plans for ourselves. We should be considering the people in the real work world who work just as hard as we do and deserve fair treatment. We should be prepared to give them fair treatment.

Bill C-85 fails to deliver an effective pension reform in two ways. It fails to bring MP pensions in line with the private sector. More important, it fails to bring MP pensions in line with what Canadians are willing to provide for members of Parliament. We cannot lose sight of the fact that we work for the Canadian public. If our employers think our pensions are too high then they must be reduced. It is the people's opinion that counts.

For these reasons, unless the bill receives some very significant amendments along the lines of those my colleague from Beaver River mentioned in her speech, I would call on the members of the House to join me in defeating Bill C-85. In fact I would call on them to support the amendment that my colleague put forward.

This bill is so flawed it needs to be sent back to committee. With your indulgence, I would like to move an amendment to the amendment made by the member for Beaver River. I move:

That the motion be further amended by adding the words "and report back to the House no later than June 23, 1995".

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The amendment to the amendment is in order.

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Kamloops-The budget.

It being 5.32 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business, as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from March 13 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, an act to amend the Divorce Act (granting of access to, or custody of, a child to a grandparent) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Divorce Act

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this issue as someone who grew up without knowing her grandparents because her grandparents were in another country. I have observed, as my brothers and sisters have had children, the special relationship that has developed between my parents and my nieces.

Bill C-232 can be supported in principle for attempting to address a very distressing situation. The relationship between grandparent and grandchild is something very special. Particularly after their parents' divorce a grandparent can be an important resource to children, someone who can offer care and support and buffer children from the many changes and stresses associated with family breakdown.

Research confirms the importance of the grandparent-grandchild relationship. Arthur Kornhaber, a noted child psychiatrist and researcher has conducted three years of lengthy, in depth, personal interviews with some 300 children and as many grandparents. His conclusion is that: "The bond between grandparents and grandchildren is second in emotional power and influence only to the relationship between child and parent". He has stated that a healthy and loving bond between grandparents and grandchildren is necessary for the emotional health and happiness of all three generations. This bond is a natural birthright for children, realized through an emotional attachment, a legacy bequeathed by their elders that benefits everyone in the family.

Given this very special and valuable role that grandparents play in a child's life, it is very upsetting to hear about cases where children are being denied access to their grandparents because of some very bitter disputes.

It is hoped that the situation is limited to unusual cases where the divorce has been especially bitter. However, it occurs frequently enough to warrant the formation of support groups. Organizations such as the Canadian Grandparents' Rights Association and Grandparents Requesting Access and Dignity help grandparents cope in these situations and do an admirable job.

The reality is there are cases where grandparents who wish to be able to continue to have contact with their grandchildren are being denied this contact and are forced to withdraw from their grandchildren's lives.

It is this situation that Bill C-232 proposes to address by identifying changes to the Divorce Act that could promote grandparent access. The main focus of Bill C-232 is an amendment to subsection 16(3) of the Divorce Act which currently states that a person, other than a spouse, may not make an application for child custody and access without leave of the court.

That means that currently the grandparent-grandchild relationship is accorded the same value as a child's relationship with any other third party. Grandparents must obtain leave of the court to make an application for custody or access to the grandchild.

The bill proposes an amendment that would distinguish the grandparent-grandchild relationship as a distinct type of relationship. It would give grandparents the same standing as parents so they would no longer be required to obtain leave to make such an application. Instead, grandparents would have independent standing to apply to the court for access or custody of their grandchild at the time the grandchild's parents are getting a divorce.

This is an important change to make to the Divorce Act. It would mean that the Divorce Act would formally recognize grandparents' legal rights to have access to their grandchildren.

Another important implication of the proposed amendment is that it would grant grandparents who have strong legitimate interests in their grandchildren greater leverage in their negotiations with the child's parents. This new legal standing would allow a grandparent to challenge a parent who is threatening to withhold or deny access without good cause. Hopefully the threat of a lawsuit would be enough to motivate that parent to resolve the dispute.

For these reasons I rise in support of Bill C-232 and suggest that we should applaud it for attempting to emphasize the beneficial role that grandparents may play with respect to their grandchildren. However, I must say that there are some aspects of the bill as it currently reads which must be reviewed.

First, there is concern that the bill may be over-reaching when it places grandparents on the same footing as parents for custody when the real problem is access. Consideration should be given to treating these two matters differently.

In addition to allowing grandparents to apply for custody and access as of right, the bill proposes an amendment to section 16(5) of the Divorce Act to give grandparents the same rights that this section currently provides to the parent who is granted access, namely the right to make inquiries and to be given information as to the health, education and welfare of the child.

This proposal is problematic because private and confidential information such as this is normally only available to parents. It is not clear that there are valid policy reasons to allow grandparents with access rights to obtain this information, especially since other grandparents, those with grandchildren in intact families, may have no such right.

It is also important to ask why grandparents need this right. It has to be recognized that different grandparents may have different motivations and that there is a potential for this amendment to promote further intergenerational disharmony if grandparents make use of the information they receive to challenge the custodial parent's decisions.

This part of Bill C-232 should be reviewed carefully by the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, of which I am a member. The committee in reviewing the bill should be guided by the standard set out in section 16(8) of the Divorce Act which provides that in making any custody or access order the court should only take into consideration the best interests of the child of the marriage.

This is the standard that has come to be accepted both in Canada and internationally as the appropriate standard to apply with respect to matters relating to children. It means that laws directly affecting children should focus on the needs and best interests of the child rather than on the rights of adults.

It is this standard that the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs should utilize in assessing the other proposals of Bill C-232, such as the proposal to amend section 16(9) and (10) of the Divorce Act to include the word "grandparent" in the wording of these two provisions.

It is important that courts, in assessing whether grandparent access would be in the child's interest, continue to consider the quality of the relationship that has existed in the past between grandparent and grandchild, as well as the amount of prior contacts. Evidence about the prior relationship between the parents and grandparents, especially if it is conflictual, is arguably also very important.

In reviewing Bill C-232, the committee should also consider that while it allows grandparents to apply as of right to the courts for access to the grandchild, it does not address the problem about the high costs of these legal proceedings, costs which may very well be prohibitive to many grandparents and custodial parents.

There is another important point that must be made. It should be recognized that there are limitations to what a court order can

accomplish and what the law can do to enforce it. It would be ideal if a court order awarding grandparent access could ensure that meaningful access could occur without further problems.

Unfortunately this is not the case. The court cannot order people to change their attitudes, their feelings or manners of relating to one another. If the custodial parent continues to oppose access, the reality may very well be that attempts to enforce any access order would only lead to more conflict and perhaps even more litigation with the child caught in the middle. This can be detrimental to the well-being of the child.

It may be that there is a need to attempt to address some of the underlying fundamental problems surrounding the issue of grandparent access. The issue is closely related to other child custody and access issues and perhaps should be addressed in a more comprehensive way.

The committee in reviewing Bill C-232 may want to consider whether legislative reform alone can provide a solution to this very complex problem. Other non-legislative options that have been identified include judicial education, parenting education and improved counselling and mediation services. The committee may want to explore some of these longer term solutions to provide more services and supports to divorcing couples and their families, including the grandparents.

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to speak on Bill C-232, an act to amend the Divorce Act. The aim of this bill is to relieve grandparents of the obligation to obtain special leave from the courts to apply for a provisional, permanent or amended court order for the custody of the children or access to them.

At the moment, the Divorce Act contains no provision for grandparents' rights. Grandparents wishing to obtain custody of their grandchildren now must first apply to the courts for leave to debate the custody of their grandchildren.

This bill would entitle grandparents to obtain information on the health, education and welfare of the child. It also provides that the amendments to the Divorce Act would be subject to review by a parliamentary committee four years after their coming into force.

Bill C-232 would eliminate the need for grandparents to make this initial application and would enable them to be a party to the dispute.

Parents divorce, but children do not. Today's family is considerably different from yesterday's. The patriarchal family of the past has changed and become mobile and temporary. With divorces, common-law unions and other arrangements, the family tree has been uprooted.

The family of the year 2000 is born of the break-up of couples. The reconstituted family is a collection of members who are not all biologically related. No model exists for this new family. Each member must adjust by finding a way to function within the family unit.

Studies tend to show that children can benefit from family reconstruction, which gives them another chance.

The traditional family, when divorce did not take place, hid a lot of frustrations behind its air of respectability. However, the number of divorces still evokes some bitterness. Solutions have to be found for children to overcome their suffering, and grandparents have a vital role to play following the breakup of the family unit.

As the official opposition critic for seniors organizations, I have a keen interest in this bill, but I feel I must point out some of the shortcomings of this attempt to improve the status of grandparents.

In recent years, grandparents who were denied access to their grandchildren often asked the courts to intervene and grant them visiting rights.

A number of anglophone associations were established, including GROWTH-Grandchildren-Grandparents Right of Wholesomeness Through Heritage, GRAND-Grandparents Requesting Access and Dignity, founded in 1983 in Toronto, and the Canadian Grandparents Rights Association in British Columbia. In French, GRAND becomes GRANDIR, which stands for Grands-parents réclamant accès, nouveau départ incitant retrouvailles. These associations are asking for federal legislation that would give grandparents easier access to their grandchildren.

I think I should point out the excellent work being done by the organization Grands-parents-tendresse in Saint-Jérôme, in the riding of the hon. member for Laurentides, headed by Cécile Lampron, whose purpose is to develop intergenerational relationships by visiting schools, organizing group excursions with the children, helping young mothers after the birth of a child or during convalescence, and by offering services to single seniors.

First of all, this bill is aimed only at the children of couples who are either divorced or about to divorce. The federal government has jurisdiction over divorce proceedings, but Bill C-232 may exceed this authority. Grandparents are not directly involved in the marriage, as is the case with parents and the children born of the marriage.

Parental authority is a provincial matter, under subsection 92(13) of the Constitution Act, 1867. This is clearly an intrusion into an area under provincial jurisdiction.

Unlike Canadian common law, the access rights of grandparents to Quebec children are already provided for explicitly in Quebec's civil code. Section 611, passed in December 1980, says that the parents cannot, without good reason, prevent the

child from having a personal relationship with its grandparents. If the parties cannot agree, the terms and conditions of this relationship will be determined by the courts.

Section 611 of the Civil Code may be invoked at any time before or after the divorce of the parents. In addition, this clause does nothing to define the notion of grandparents in the Divorce Act. We presume that section 579, which states the following, takes precedence: "When adoption is granted, the effects of the preceding filiation cease". The rights of the parents of a father or a mother could be revoked at the same time as those of the biological parents.

In Quebec, section 611 resolves the issue of the grandparents' access to grandchildren and they may submit a petition at any time. Quebec has resolved this problem, but Canada's other provinces have not. Bill C-232 improves the position of grandparents and their grandchildren in other provinces, but only covers the children of married or divorced parents. As a consequence, this bill will change very little about the current laws regarding grandchildren in Quebec.

Therefore, all common law provinces should pass a law like that in effect in Quebec. We believe Quebec's legislation shows the way in this area and should be used as a model.

This bill has another shortcoming: grandparents' access to medical and school records. The Act Respecting Access to Documents Held by Public Bodies and the Protection of Personal Information is a law of Quebec governing a matter of provincial jurisdiction.

Quebec has legislative power over marriages, property and civil rights, marriage contracts, adoption, separation from bed and board, custody, etc.

Consequently, Bill C-232 increases the overlap in family law.

In addition, under subsection 92(13) of the Constitution Act, 1867, parental authority bestowed on the couple is an exclusively provincial jurisdiction. Therefore, the bill also infringes on a provincial jurisdiction.

I mentioned earlier that Bill C-232 tends to protect the rights of grandparents in the other provinces of Canada, but unfortunately, it has shortcomings and the Bloc Quebecois must point out this obvious infringement on a provincial jurisdiction.

Grandparents have an enormous role to play in the lives of their grandchildren during the years following a separation. They are exceptional compensations for the partial absence of a father or a mother. They can bring emotional and other stability to a child's life. Grandparents can often detect problems, but they cannot take part in discussions, because, often, intruding in such a way can only aggravate an already adverse climate.

In closing, the Bloc Quebecois, the official opposition, will put aside the few misgivings it has and will support Bill C-232 which was introduced by my kind colleague for Mission-Coquitlam.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, it is in the name of my own mother, who was a mother and a grandmother, and in view of the progress being made in the changing family unit nowadays, that I support the spirit of this motion.

The family is a changing unit in 1995. Certainly from my own perspective, I have to pay a special tribute to my mother who prevailed upon me to make sure I got my views on this issue on the record. From the perspective of my daughter, my mother has been an invaluable role model and a very important anchor in a changing world. I understand the difficulty sometimes of legislating familial relationships. Obviously the best interest of the child has to be the guiding principle in any dispute of a familial nature, but the spirit of this legislation is worth supporting.

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise to speak on Bill C-232, an act to amend the Divorce Act, sponsored by my colleague from Mission-Coquitlam who is herself a grandparent. I know she has put a lot of time and effort into creating and promoting this piece of legislation. I must commend her.

I would also like to make reference to the gallery and the attendance of a number of interested persons in this particular legislation. I commend them for their attendance.

With reference to the previous speaker's comment on the changing world, I sometimes wonder if we are not today playing a bit of catch up here. Some of the principles or the things we were used to in days gone by just slipped away from us because of various other things that were occurring in our world.

For example, technological developments such as transportation and communication have had a tremendous effect on how we live our lives today. We travel farther. The world is much smaller. On the other hand, we can communicate much quicker with each other. We have E-mail for example. Even in my lifetime, and I do not like to think I am that old, I can remember the first telephone in our neighbourhood.

We look at such an amendment where we are talking about general access and we have the technological equipment. The resources are there for this kind of thing.

Another thing has snuck up on us from the days when a small percentage of people did not have access to grandparents due to distance, death or whatever. It now seems to have turned the other way. We are suddenly aware that this very important aspect of our lives has slipped away from us.

One of the other things that contributes to that is the advances made in health care, not only from the point of view of our attitude toward living a healthier lifestyle but also through medical research with which we can prolong our life. Consequently, we are living longer. The average person's lifespan has gone to 72 years from 25 or 30 years ago when it was six months after one retired at 65.

Some of the things we have seen come out of what has affected our lives are such things as higher divorce rates and family break-ups. The average marriage lasts something like five years. It might be seven, I am not exactly sure on that statistic. A higher divorce rate is a given in today's society. Family break-ups are occurring. It is a two working parents society as well. The standard of living that could be enjoyed on one income in 1960 now requires two.

Those kinds of things have had an effect on us. They have created situations in today's society. We find ourselves trying to come up with some way to get that component back into our life of the family, including the grandparents.

One of the previous speakers got into a legal concept. What I am suggesting here is that we look at the intent of the law more so than the letter of the law. There will be time enough for the letter of the law when it gets into committee. Then we can get our learned people in those areas to address those issues. This House has to say what the intent is. The intent is to get a family structure or have the grandparents included in the family structure.

Another thing in our society today versus 20 or 25 years ago is the advent of new Canadians who do not necessarily have a European background. We hear more and more about the extended family. We are trying to put that into some sort of a parameter as to what that actually means. We also hear of the extended family in our aboriginal groups.

It is time that we looked at these new concepts. If there are some legal barriers in recognizing these in law, then it is our responsibility to see how we can overcome them. The extended family could include the grandparents quite nicely. I would prefer that.

I realize there are very many different ways a divorce situation can turn out. On the other hand, if there are children involved in a situation who are going to go into the social service realm and foster parent situations and there are grandparents sitting right there who have to get a court order to apply to get into that situation, that just does not make logical sense to me.

When we address this point by point, we must look at the bottom line and know that the overall objective is what is best for that child. On average, we can argue that the family and the grandparents in normal situations are what is best for the child. There will always be the isolated cases.

When we get down to looking at it line by line or looking at the letter of the law, that is when we address those issues. What I am trying to say now is that there are four amendments here. One is asking not to have to go to court to make an application to apply for access. That does not mean to say they are going to get it, but when they have made the decision to make an application they have to trot off to court first.

Another amendment we must address is the right to know. As I related earlier, we have all of these wonderful advances such as E-mail and television and we can fly on the Concorde to goodness knows where and how fast. I certainly think that at some point we should be able as the intellectual animal of this planet to come into some sort of situation in which we can recognize what is best for the child. If there is animosity at the time the court is making these kinds of decisions, I still believe there are ways in which what is best for the child can be addressed and that we can use this technology to that end. A year from now the situation might be a little better and people might get over their feelings and start thinking more about what is actually happening to their loved ones on both ends of the age scale.

Another thing that comes into this concept is our roots and our family tree. If we do not keep in touch with each other that will be much more difficult to keep track of. I believe there are a number of people who find that important in their lives.

With respect to geographic living conditions, I am not too familiar with what is happening in divorce rates, but it is my understanding that when access is granted to one of the parents there are usually restrictions placed upon where these people can live. They get a geographic area in which they can live so that the other side can have access. I am suggesting that will not survive long in our society. At some point that will be addressed, and maybe this is a good time to do it. As I have said, communication and transportation are not the problems they once were. I am much more familiar with the geography of British Columbia, and I can remember when it took two and a half days to get from Kimberley to Vancouver, which can now be done in almost nine hours, or ten hours if you are not speeding. Surely to goodness we should be able to look at these kinds of things to resolve these barriers.

I would like to reinforce that it is a given when we look back at situations in our past, when there was the family unit, including brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and grandparents, that it was always the grandparents in that family unit who were constant. I

may have lost touch with my brother and his wife for a while, but I never lost touch with my parents.

I encourage this House and all hon. members to unite behind this non-partisan issue and support the bill.

[Anna Terrana, Liberal, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise because I also feel very strongly about this bill. I have the fortune of having grandparents and I have the fortune of having an extended family. Unfortunately, my son never had that luxury. My parents and my in-laws are in Italy. I always felt guilty, because I know what a comfort grandparents can be, both for the family and for the children.

When I went to Italy with my son, who was then five, I realized how much he and his grandfather were alike and how much they missed each other and how much they enjoyed each other.

I believe that we have to always take into consideration the needs the children have. We seem to forget that many times. Since we are adults and we are the ones who have to help children to get what they need, I think we should definitely support this particular piece of legislation and make sure that the children are taken care of and that we allow their grandparents to take care of them whenever possible.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour today to speak to this private member's bill. My colleague from Mission-Coquitlam I know has worked very hard over the last few months travelling across the country talking to groups about this legislation. I would like to advise the House that the response out there has been overwhelming in support.

There are many voids in the Divorce Act. For example, at the present time in a divorce case grandparents do have to seek leave of the court to obtain standing to discuss the question of access to their grandchildren. This bill will give grandparents an automatic right to the standing to participate at court.

I am not a grandparent, but I hope to be some day. I think most of us want to experience that joy. Sure, it might make us feel a little older, but these days what does not make us feel older?

As parents and grandparents we want to see that our grandchildren have the best quality of life. There is nothing wrong with this. But the law can divide, and we need to mitigate against that. To me, grandparents have always seemed rather stable. Perhaps it stems from the notion that the older you get, the wiser you become.

I recently read an article in which a federal official was quoted as saying: "In the great majority of cases, it would be in the best interests of children to see their grandparents. They can be a real stabilizing force".

I understand the Minister of Justice is not quite in support of this legislation. Why? Apparently he feels that if Bill C-232 is passed the courts would be flooded with litigation, causing a tremendous backlog. I do not think so.

I spent enough time working within the British Columbia family and divorce courts to know that including grandparents in contested divorce cases will only improve matters, not make them worse. As the Divorce Act currently states in section 17(2), "a person other than a spouse may not make an application under paragraph 1(b) without leave of the court".

The minister may say that if we allow grandparents a say at the original hearing it will increase litigation. My experience says otherwise. Extended families must be encouraged to take more responsibility for their own and come to the rescue or backstop the social alternatives considered in child custody and access disputes.

In clause 3(1) it states: "On the expiration of four years after the coming into force of this act, the provisions contained herein shall be referred to such committee of the House of Commons or of the Senate or of the Houses of Parliament as may be designated or established by Parliament for that purpose".

If that measure is adopted, Parliament will conduct a comprehensive review of these provisions in four years. The Minister of Justice is afraid of guarantees like this. He does not put guaranteed reviews into his bills because he is perhaps afraid that down the road legislation may be changed because it is really flawed. Why does the minister not put such a clause in Bill C-68, for instance? Maybe he fears the results.

Certainly family law needs fundamental review. I am not encouraged that the justice minister will produce any substantive changes soon. But this bill is not only about grandparents, it is also about grandchildren. It is vitally important that we have legal protection for them.

We recognize that all grandparents are beneficial for their grandchildren. There are times when they should be denied direct access or should not be involved, but that should be the exception by an order. This is why we have courts and judges. They are the decision makers in those contested cases. All relevant voices must be heard in difficult cases, and this bill facilitates that help. The best interests of the child is still the operative principle.

All that is being done here is awarding the grandparent the right to have a voice. That is essentially all we are asking to have changed.

This morning I received a copy of the speech the Liberal member for South Shore was to give today but could not because of previous commitments. The member clearly is in favour of this legislation. The member for Nepean is another member who I know supports this legislation. Therefore, I would encourage members of the Liberal Party to consult with their colleagues on this bill and find out what their feelings are.

Certainly members of the Reform Party are behind this legislation. We believe that it is needed as one small step in a larger effort to update and simplify family law.

Reading some of the comments the member for Nepean has made on this bill, I understand that there are some parts she has difficulty with, but this is understandable. This is why the House of Commons has standing committees: to deal with legislation, to bring in the experts and go over it with a fine-tooth comb.

I have been a divorce mediator. As an officer of the court in the past, I have investigated circumstances and made recommendations and written recommendations about child custody and access. It is my considered opinion from within the system that in general family law is in somewhat of a disarray. But clarifying the role for grandparents in hotly contested cases is a help, not a hindrance. A strong legal climate as a backdrop encourages mediated settlements and alternative solutions.

Indeed, the court is a very blunt instrument to settle family matters, but clarity and resolve in the law can only help children. Sometimes these matters deteriorate into a swirl of struggles and manoeuvres and the real needs of children and their wishes are forgotten.

This bill deserves to be sent to the standing committee. It would represent a very positive step toward the protection and development of the child who is caught up in these unfortunate circumstances.

Therefore, on behalf of many grandparents rights groups across the country, including the British Columbia based Canadian Grandparents Rights Association, I want to fully endorse this bill and commend it to this House.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take a few minutes and say a few words on this bill. In particular, I think I would be remiss if I did not take the time of the House to remind all of us not only of the good work the hon. member proposing the bill has done, but equally the work of the hon. member for Nepean.

I hope, Mr. Speaker, you will allow me to say this in spite of the fact that it is not customary to our rules, but the member for Nepean is unable to be here because of illness. Because of that, I hope, Mr. Speaker, you will be lenient with the application of that rule.

The hon. member for Nepean is ill. She had very extensive surgery some time back and of course cannot participate in this debate today. However, I am sure all members will know of the work she has done, as well as the hon. member proposing the bill today. If the member for Nepean were here, she would no doubt want to be participating in this debate and giving it her full support as well.

On behalf of the hon. member for Nepean, I thought I would take a moment in the House to indicate what I believe to be her support and the support of several other hon. members who have worked on this initiative as well.

As we all know, the hon. member for Nepean had tabled a bill similar to the one now before the House several years ago during the previous Parliament. She put forward an analogous bill during this Parliament. Being absent from the House for health reasons, she is unable to address this House today. I know that the House will vote on this motion in a few minutes.

I am unable to vote by proxy on her behalf because that is not the practice in this House. However, if such were the case, I am sure she would have asked me to vote in favour of this bill. The least I can do is to mention all the work she has done on this bill, along with the hon. member who proposed the bill today. I also wish to commend the hon. member for Nepean for her work on this issue, not only in this Parliament but also in the past several years.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to make a few comments on Bill C-232 tabled by our hon. colleague, the hon. member for Mission-Coquitlam.

Since the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell spoke about the health of the hon. member for Nepean, allow me to point out that we think about her often, especially when we are dealing with issues such as this one which affect the most vulnerable in our society.

The bill before us today is no magic solution. I believe, however, that it is a step in the right direction. Indeed, Quebec, which is concerned about its areas of jurisdiction, has always looked with a very critical eye at amendments to the Divorce Act and to family law, because it knows that we must still live in a federal system for a certain time and tries to balance federal and provincial jurisdictions.

Are we dealing with a filiation problem or a divorce problem? What is the situation? We could debate this for a long time.

In any case, we have before us a provision which would allow grandparents to avoid the additional step required of any third party in divorce proceedings. A neighbour is not treated any differently from a child's grandparent in being granted access or custody rights in divorce proceedings.

That obstacle would be eliminated. In the eyes of the law, grandparents would, for all practical purposes, be reintegrated into the slightly extended family unit. So this provision may be a step forward.

As I said at the outset, we should not see this amendment to the 1985 Divorce Act as a magic solution. A similar provision, which covers all children, whether they were born to married couples or common law partners, has been in effect in Quebec since 1981. Having practised family law since 1981, I can tell you that grandparents are not rushing to make applications to the courts. Since 1981, few grandparents have applied for access in Quebec.

Today, grandparents applying to the courts in Quebec do so only when the conflict is quite serious. Grandparents, the grandfather or grandmother-who should have reached a point in their lives when they could start relaxing a little-often must go against their wishes and say: "Well, I must retain the services of a lawyer, I am going to take my own son or my own daughter, or my son- or daughter-in-law, to court and I am going to take this to the limit, with all of the emotions that go with it". Not many grandparents insist on an all-out battle: their lives already have been one, they have had their children, raised them and worked all of their lives. So, we must not think that this clause will be the magic solution.

However, the fact that such a disposition is even included in the bill could make many divorce lawyers strongly advise their clients to do the following: "Give the grandparents the right to visit their grandchildren. Otherwise, they could take you to court in the future to fight for it".

This kind of provision could prevent a great number of legal disputes and is better than using court cases to settle them.

I also think that we could use our vote on a bill like this one to send a very clear signal to the courts which must interpret these laws, and that is to listen very carefully to the petitions of grandparents before declining their requests for the right to pick up their grandchildren to take them out from noon to four for a pop and a Big Mac and to bring them to a park to play before being forced to take them back home. The courts should perhaps also give them a little more time together, because it takes time to bond. In the era of broken families, we are all aware of how difficult it is to rebuild the ties between our children and their parents and grandparents.

Thus, all of the aspects that have been raised during this debate show that we have the opportunity to help remedy a rampant and very serious social ill. And, although this bill is not perfect, I think it should be passed at second reading and sent for consideration to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Resuming debate. Colleagues, the Chair was given an indication previously that if an opportunity arose the mover of the motion, the member for Mission-Coquitlam, asked that she be able to summarize for not more than two minutes, understanding that no one else would speak afterward. She would close the debate. Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to close the third hour of debate on the bill. I want to personally thank all those members who took part in the debate.

As many members know, this bill has a long history. In the last Parliament my good friend from Ottawa West championed the cause of grandparents. She presented petitions containing over 8,000 names requesting that the Divorce Act be amended to give grandparents status before the courts in the case of divorce of their married children along with status to ensure that the presiding judge would take into consideration the rights of grandparents to grandchildren.

My good friend from Nepean, who could not be with us tonight, has worked very hard on this. I have been talking with her on many occasions on this bill, which both of us had before the House.

More important, this bill addresses the cause of many grandchildren across the country who seek access to their grandparents. I have had the great privilege in the past few months to meet and speak to literally hundreds of grandparents across the country. They tell me that what they want is the opportunity to be heard in the courts.

There have been many concerns expressed about the part of the bill that gives grandparents the right to make inquiries about the child, inquiries the parents may not have the right to make. This can be amended in committee.

It is my belief that the bill will reduce litigation, not increase it. All outstanding issues will be dealt with at the same time under the same judge.

Again, I would like to thank everyone present. I urge all members to vote in favour of sending this bill to committee for further study.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

It being 6.20 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 93, the time provided for debate has expired. Accordingly, the question is as follows. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-85, an act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and to provide for the continuation of a certain provision, be read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment; and of the amendment to the amendment.

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Sharon Hayes, Reform, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my delight to rise to speak to Bill C-85. I speak in opposition to this bill, an act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act.

I found it very interesting today to listen to the debate and to some of the rhetoric that has surrounded it. As we address the debate from this side of the House, we certainly are representing the mood and the voice of Canadians in opposing a pension plan which is far above and beyond anything any other Canadian outside of this place could enjoy or ever think about.

The Reform Party bases its decision on the principles put down within the party from its inception. My opposition to this bill is based on certain of these principles that the Reform Party holds. Let me remind members of two of those.

Principle 17 of the party states: "We believe in public service, that governments, civil servants, politicians and political parties exist to serve the people and that they should demonstrate this service and commitment at all times".

Principle 18 states: "We believe that public money should be regarded by government as `funds held in trust' and that government should practise fiscal responsibility to balance expenditures and revenues".

Both of these principles deal directly with the issue at hand today. It is from these principles that this party, since its inception, developed a policy on MP pensions.

The Reform Party policy on MP pensions states that it opposes the current pension schemes for members of Parliament. We would end full indexation of these pensions. We would postpone eligibility for benefits until at least age 60 with eligibility further postponed by the amount of time in which the person has already been paid prior to age 60. We would subject the MP pension to a tax back according to a formula identical to that of the old age security.

Compare our policy with the vague and general policy I have heard quoted here today of which the Liberals seem proud which is outlined in their red book: "The pension regime of members of Parliament has been the focus of considerable controversy. It is now the subject of an independent review which Liberals support. We believe that reform is necessary".

It is of some small comfort to know the Liberals have finally and only seemingly recently realized the MP pension scheme is an affront to Canadians. I have heard it and I am sure they have heard it. It has taken a while to sink in though. It is also interesting to note the Liberal policy uses the word reform. I will quote again: "We believe reform is necessary".

From the vague Liberal policy, which often happens with vague policies, Bill C-85 has flowed, a bill that I believe is totally unacceptable.

I am sure everyone has heard that 52 Reform MPs will be opting out. My Reform colleagues have come here from ordinary communities, homes with families. We have mortgages too. Like our colleagues on the other side, we want security for our homes. We want security for our families, for ourselves and our loved ones, just like every other Canadian. However, we have come to this place to show leadership in difficult times. We were sent here to show leadership in difficult times. We as a party cannot in good conscience claim to lead by example by participating in a plan such as has been shown here.

Let me explain a few points on how this diverts directly from what ordinary Canadians might experience. First, this bill raises the age of eligibility to age 55. It raises it to age 55. But what about the age of 55? This is totally unacceptable. Ordinary Canadians only receive their full pension benefits, their CPP and old age security at age 65. Notice there is a difference of 10 years. What is 10 years? Ten years is a long time.

Why does the government still persist in maintaining this discrepancy? Fairness calls for members of Parliament to be eligible at the same age as the people they purport to represent. After all, the entire concept behind our parliamentary system is that all of us in this House represent the common people. That is why it is called the House of Commons. Have they forgotten this on that side of this House?

A second concern is that under Bill C-85 full indexation of the MP pension to the level of inflation remains from the date that an MP retires. This again is an affront to the average Canadian whose pension income is not indexed to inflation. It is another example of how privileged members of Parliament have been and will continue to be under this government's proposed "reform" of the pension scheme.

I also find it interesting that once again this bill shows a duplicity in high sounding statistics. We are told benefits will now accumulate at a rate that will drop by 1 per cent. An accrual rate of 4 per cent instead of 5 per cent is still above the legal limit of what any other Canadian enjoys. It has been accommodated by book work, or by putting it into two pots or whatever.

The fact remains it is something Canadians legally cannot enjoy otherwise.

At the same time as this goes down by 1 per cent, the amount the MPs pay into the plan decreases by 2 per cent. Perhaps I could throw in the concept of one for you and two for me and if we do it quickly enough maybe no one will notice. It is a sort of shell game. It is no wonder the Canadians I hear have given up faith in this place. They have a right to be cynical if government plays games with the numbers and with the things they represent.

The government also claims that significant savings will result from these measures. It is true that now the taxpayers' contribution will be at a ratio of approximately 3.5 to 1 compared to the members' contribution, down from what we considered to be seven to one before. That was obscene.

It is also true that most of this change resulted from the actuarial realities of a lower rate simply because of the large number of new members in this place. That is, this ratio even with the old plan would have been approximately four to one had no changes at all been made to this pension plan because of the difference in the membership in this place.

Therefore little has changed in spite of the government's rhetoric and platitudes on this issue. The bill it put forward is smoke and mirrors. In fact little has changed in this place in spite of the government's rhetoric and platitudes on many things.

In my riding in the greater Vancouver region there is a significant and expanding portion of the population that is retired and receiving pension income. How can the government and the President of the Treasury Board who proposes this bill justify keeping the full indexation of MP pensions that those people, those families, those individuals in my area do not enjoy? How can the government and the President of the Treasury Board justify not making the age of pension eligibility consistent with what average Canadians can expect and what they experience?

This bill represents the gulf between what Canadians expect and what the government delivers. Should the rules be different for those that lead than for those whom they serve?

Our party brought this issue to the fore. As a result the government has given the House and the Canadian people a mere token. The government has failed once again to bridge that gulf, and the gulf between it and the people of Canada remains even after the rhetoric of this bill.

On page 11 of the red book it states that Canadians have to see themselves as belonging to a society of reciprocal obligations in which each of us is responsible for the well-being of the other. Canadians know this intuitively. That is mighty sounding but I would like to take that quote within the context of this MP pension plan and compare it to the 45,000 civil servants that now are facing being laid off from their place of work.

I take that quote within the context, and take the obscene pension plan that we still see in place and compare it with government cutbacks in the funding of medicare to the provinces. I take that quote within the context of the MP pension plans and compare it with struggling Canadian families faced with outrageous tax burdens, many of whom therefore are not even able themselves to put money toward an RRSP at the end of the year.

Another concern I have with the bill is that it has been thoroughly politicized. Initially the President of the Treasury Board was to have introduced the bill in February before the government tabled its budget. It is now May 4. Four months have gone by. What delayed its introduction? The President of the Treasury Board had to ensure that all the various interests within the cabinet and caucus were represented and that those interests were placated.

I ask the President of the Treasury Board, whose interests is he representing? Is he representing the interests of his cabinet and caucus colleagues or is he, as he should, representing the interests of the Canadian people who have been loudly demanding genuine reform to the MP pension scheme for a long time?

Politics and rhetoric are an integral part of the government's approach. Good schemes and fair proposals have been put forward by outside sources and even by some government members. These have been rejected and replaced by rhetoric which is answered at every turn by comments about pay scales and double dipping.

When challenged on the continuing arrogance of the new pension plan, why does the government insist on talking about pay scales? If MPs' salaries are not acceptable, then change them. Do not use them as an excuse for the pension plan. Do not divert the issue from the scandalous pension scheme that continues to exist.

What of the issue of double dipping? What is the real issue here? Once again the government tries to divert attention in other directions. The issue that concerns Canadians is patronage. The issue is choosing political friends to fill positions, letting them feed from the public trough and the attitude of gross arrogance toward the taxpayer in doing so.

I will only take the time to briefly recall for Canadians some of the very recent and ongoing issues that relate to this, like the Pearson airport review, the Lobbyists Registration Act, the expensive and self-serving byelections made necessary by Senate and other appointments, the Power Corporation contro-

versy that exists today and even our elusive and unaccountable ethics counsellor. The list goes on and on.

The real issue here is special favours, concessions and decisions made by the government that fly in the face of the trust of Canadians and the trust that they expect in their parliamentary system. What do we get in terms of pension reform? What is significant in their version of the end of double dipping?

It only means that the obscene amounts of publicly funded pension dollars grow behind the scenes for those lucky recipients of government appointments. I would like to say that an abuse of the public trust is an abuse no matter which way you cut it.

With the help of some professionals within the insurance industry, actually the Mutual Life branch in Surrey, I have received some numbers for normal pension expectations. I related it to our longest standing Reform MP, the member for Beaver River, who would in the old plan receive $1.8 million in pension at age 75.

With this bill and the changes that have been introduced, the government comes to the Canadian people and boldly says that this is a fair plan. The numbers indicate that our qualifying member would have received, had she chosen not to opt out, mostly at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer, a whopping $1.2 million still. The pension is reduced from $1.8 to $1.2 million.

That member plus the rest of the Reformers have chosen to opt out. I would like briefly to put forward the cost she will pay to do this very thing.

It is of note that Canadians should be aware of that difference. They should know what the difference is between what normal Canadians might have to do in putting aside their own pension and what it is that this place considers fair, equitable and can receive without blushing at the fact that they will take this without an apology to the Canadian people.

It is a statement of the integrity of our member that she is prepared to opt out. If that member contributes her portion of the pension allotment into her own RRSP plan instead of this gold plated pension plan of the government, she would receive a pension at age 60. I put it at age 60. It is not like age 55. It is not the freedom 55 that is proposed by the government. At age 60, like some other Canadians, or perhaps 65, that pension would be less than $15,000 a year. Therefore her total payment if taken to age 75 would be approximately one-quarter of a million dollars. It is something like $228,000.

In trying to put aside her own pension scheme, she will come out with a one-quarter million dollar payment as opposed to the revised government plan which would give her one and a quarter million dollars. Making this decision will cost our member approximately $1 million. Do members think she is doing that easily? Do members think she is doing that on a whim? The very fact that we would take this position shows how strongly we feel. We in turn mirror how Canadians feel on this issue.

Leadership must start in this place or else the future of the country is in very great danger. Our party wants a fair plan. Our party wants a plan that is comparable to the private sector. Our party also wants to provide security for our families and for Canadian families. The plan must start here.

Some of the details of the plan are these. All members who have less than six years of experience as of October 25, 1993 have the right to opt out of the plan. As we have said, it will not be and it is not an easy decision for the class of '88 in this place. However, on the basis of principle, we challenge the class of '88 or later members on the Liberal side to do what is right and just for the Canadian people. If you go to your constituents and ask them, I know the answer-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I wish to remind the House that all interventions must be made through the Chair and not directly across the floor, using the word "you this" or "you that" but having everything through the Speaker.

[Sharon Hayes, Reform, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if they go to their constituents they will certainly hear what I have heard, that the people of Canada are sick to death of the abuse of their tax dollars. They need leadership which responds to what they have to go through these days.

[An hon. member]

It is not so in St. Thomas.

[Sharon Hayes, Reform, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I would be very surprised if that is the case.

For those who have more than six years of experience, they will continue to receive this gold plated pension for that period under the old regime. We have members of the front bench and the back bench on this side and on the other side who have to be accountable to the people they represent.

I will conclude with some statements on the challenges that we are facing. Canada is facing challenges like never before. Those challenges are in the areas of finance, socially and internationally. The challenges we have these days are extreme, unique and great.

This government and this place needs to walk with Canadians hand in hand. First it must connect with the reality that Canadians face day to day. The gulf between this place and Canadian people has widened vastly in the last 20 years.

For the government to try to cross that distance with a bridge that goes only a fraction of the way is no solution at all. It does nothing to reconcile the distance. Actually it puts the government at a very great risk. If the bridge between this place and the

Canadian people is not built in its entirety, the chasm between the two will swallow those who simply pretend to cross it.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address the subamendment to Bill C-85 which requests that the government report back by June 23 with some improvements to the bill.

I would like to do two things: cover an area that is in the Liberal red book on pensions and talk a little about what is happening here tonight.

In the red book at page 92, the Liberal government says that the pension regime of members of Parliament has been the focus of considerable controversy. That is an understatement. It is now the subject of an independent review which the Liberals support. They believe that reform is necessary. We agree. "Whatever the results of the independent review, a Liberal government will reform the pension plan of members of Parliament to end double dipping".

This is the issue I want to have clarified. I hope when they report back by June 23 it is clarified to the degree that all these accusations from across the floor about double dipping and which members are double dipping will cease and desist.

Today the President of the Treasury Board explained what double dipping was. He said that MPs, people who have been in the House, should not be able to leave this office and receive a pension from the federal government if they accept a new full time paying job from the federal government. In addition, they will review the question of the minimum age at which pensions will begin to be paid.

The government introduced a minimum age of 55, which should be 65. On the issue of double dipping I would like to point out members on the other side like to accuse a certain member on this side, the member for Lethbridge, of double dipping. The member for Lethbridge is elected to this position, not appointed to this position, as former MPs are like Joe Clark, who was appointed to head up some agency is getting an MP pension plus a salary for heading up that agency, a position to which he was not elected.

There is a big difference. Double dipping means you are appointed to an agency or a board and still receive an MP's pension. That will cease and desist. I commend the government for that.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.