House of Commons Hansard #122 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was accused.

Topics

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Debating the matter in this way is perhaps unnecessary. I know members have strong views perhaps as to what transpired, but I have indicated the Chair will look at all the facts and will review the blues. As I indicated, the Chair did not hear some of the comments that have been alleged and so is not in a position to make a comment without that review. In the circumstances we will leave the matter until the Chair has had that opportunity. Then further discussions can take place.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, given what happened and what transpired, as my colleague described earlier, with the verbal abuse coming this way and the physical reaction, I will respect the Chair's decision to review the blues. At that time I will be prepared to stand up and withdraw the word racists in plural, if I have to after your review, Mr. Speaker.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

I thank the hon. member. The Chair will proceed with the review as indicated.

We have five minutes remaining in questions and comments. The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada on a question or comment.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Vaudreuil Québec

Liberal

Nick Discepola LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Broadview-Greenwood who has attempted to put this debate in its true context. We have in front of us a simple bill, Bill C-53, a bill that has been discussed and negotiated after several years of discussions not only with the provinces and the territories but with each official judicial power and each provincial justice ministry. They have unanimously endorsed our position.

Members opposite seem to have difficulty understanding that this bill deals with provincial legislation which affects offenders serving two years less a day. I sat hear patiently this morning and listened to the rhetoric and the challenges of the members of the Reform Party. They challenged the government as to what it has done. I will remind them of our initiatives.

I remind them of the provisions in Bill C-45 to establish someone as a long term offender. I remind them of the indefinite sentences that have been imposed on those long term and dangerous offenders. They are indefinite sentences in the sense that they will no longer only get 10 years but a judge has to condemn them to indefinite sentences. This means they are not eligible for parole before seven years. It also means that after those seven years their sentences could be prolonged by a subsequent two years and cannot come up for review before two years.

Why did Reformers vote against those initiatives? Why did they vote against the initiative to allow for 10-year supervision after a complete sentence has been served by an offender? Instead they have chosen to hide behind the rhetoric.

I will ask the member specifically since it was he who brought it up. Last spring when it came time to review section 745, the infamous faint hope clause, we could have put serial killers behind bars for good without eligibility for parole. We could have specifically addressed the case of Clifford Olson to prevent him from even applying. Why did the member's party vote against all these initiatives? Why, why, why?

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Speaker, why should Clifford Olson even be allowed to apply for release, period? Why, why, why? Because the government has allowed that type of system to ferment here.

Government members can try to dress this up with all the pretty flowers and all the pretty words but the fact is that they are still kicking people out through the system. They are giving that over to the provinces; there is no doubt about that. But why? Why would they even be thinking about that? Why would they not be thinking of something else instead? We have tried for years with the Liberal way and the Conservative way to address crime, to address reoffenders. Actually, many of the good programs have been taken out of the penal system. It is pretty tough in some areas to learn a trade in prison because of all the other programs that are in place like weight lifting, swimming, tennis and golf.

When people get out of prison they might like to be able to say they can do welding, mechanics or iron work, something where they may stand a chance of a job placement and contribute to the system instead of abusing it. This has absolutely nothing to do with that. I could readily support bills that did that sort of thing. No one in the Reform Party would have trouble supporting bills like that.

Instead we get this feel good, fuzzy-wuzzy thing: "We will release you early. We will kick you out. We will make sure you do not do your sentence. We will give you a temporary release for anything you like". To me that is not what prison is for. People are normally put in prison because they broke the law, not because they obeyed the law. In the odd case that may happen, but it is very, very seldom. In fact, I have not heard of one.

I was always led to believe that if you do the crime, you do the time. That does not seem to be the case any more. We do not have that. Now it is: You do the crime and we will look after you for life. You do not have to worry about anything. Step out of jail and we will just keep right on looking after you. We will make sure that your wants and needs are met, but if there is something we cannot supply, you just go right back out and commit a crime. That seems to have been the attitude over the last 25 years.

When we were young I guess we all thought we were tough and nothing would ever happen to us and we would get along just fine. But as tough as guys thought they were in my day, they always stood aside for the elderly and helped the elderly and had respect for the disabled and helped in any way they could. Today we do not see any of that. Why? Because there is nothing in place. Penal systems are looked upon as a joke.

I understand that many prisoners are trying to get extradited back to Canada from the United States and other countries to serve their time.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

An hon. member

There is no deterrent here.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

That is right. There is cable colour TV, all kinds of food, exercise, medical and dental programs.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is the House ready for the question?

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Prisons And Reformatories ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

At the request of the chief government whip, the division is deferred until later today at the conclusion of the time allotted for Government Orders.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

February 4th, 1997 / 1:40 p.m.

Etobicoke Centre Ontario

Liberal

Allan Rock LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

moved that Bill C-46, an act to amend the Criminal Code (production of records in sexual offence proceedings) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Prince Albert—Churchill River Saskatchewan

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to submit to the House for second reading Bill C-46, an act to amend the Criminal Code regarding the production of personal records of complainants and witnesses in sexual offence proceedings.

This legislation, which the minister introduced last June, has been the focus of much media attention. The problem which the legislation addresses has also been thoroughly debated in the media and in Canadian courtrooms.

The amendments to the Criminal Code for which I am seeking support respond to a troubling and complex issue which is having an adverse effect on sexual offence victims, the majority of whom are women or children.

I know that members of the House are familiar with this issue. Their constituents have brought it to their attention and it has been subjected to questions in the House. I know all members share my concern. I am confident they will support these very essential measures.

Over the last several years defence counsel has increasingly sought access to the wide range of personal records of sexual offence complainants, the type of records one would expect to be private, including school records, medical, psychiatric counselling and other therapeutic records, employment records, Children's Aid Society records, journals and diaries. The list goes on.

In sexual offence prosecutions, more so than any other offence, the defence focuses on the credibility of the complainant. Sexual offences are unique. Usually there are no witnesses to the offence and often there are no observable signs of an offence having been committed. For many sexual offences the only element which distinguishes normal and acceptable sexual activity from a sexual offence is the absence of consent of one party.

Sexual offences are also unique in another way. They are surrounded by myths and stereotypes about the type of person who becomes a victim and why. Moreover, the consequences of a sexual offence are devastating and long lasting.

While the prosecution must prove every element of a sexual offence, including the absence of consent of the complainant, often the complainant's word pitted against the accused is the only evidence to establish this one essential element of the offence. Hence the defence of the accused will focus on the credibility of the complainant in most cases. The search for personal records has become the strategy to assist the defence in the impeachment of the complainant's credibility and reputation.

Consider the following scenario. A person is sexually assaulted and following the assault receives counselling from a sexual assault centre. The counsellor may take notes of the sessions where the complainant is distraught and full of self-doubt about why this

has happened. The notes are the perceptions or recollections of the counsellor. They are not verbatim transcripts of the conversation. They are not statements. Yet defence counsel may attempt to gain access to and explore those records, looking for perhaps what is in the view of the defence an inconsistent statement. Or perhaps the complainant has undergone therapy for depression or child sexual abuse long before the assault which is now subject to criminal charges.

These records may also be sought to suggest that the complainant's perceptions or recollections of the incident are confused. In other words, the suggestion is that the complainant who has received such counselling or therapy is less credible.

In the extensive consultations which led to this legislation the Minister of Justice was overwhelmed by the accounts from sexual assault service providers, sexual offence survivors and lawyers at the range of records sought, the reasons advanced for the records and the relative ease with which they have been produced to defence counsel. The most troubling aspect of the consultations has been the devastating consequences of the production of irrelevant personal records for the victim.

The minister was also troubled by the perception of victims and service providers about the insensitivity of the criminal justice system. They recounted several examples which caused them to believe that there is little point in participating as a witness in a sexual offence prosecution. For example, they referred the minister to an event in 1988 where defence counsel in the Ottawa area, attending a workshop on tips and strategies for sexual assault proceedings, were being advised to seek records, including Children's Aid Society records, medical, psychiatric, hospital and immigration records as part of a strategy "to whack the complainant hard at the preliminary inquiry".

This attack on the complainants was recommended so that either she would give up and ask the crown to withdraw the charges or in the event that she withstands this gruelling and embarrassing treatment to cause the lawyer to rethink the accused's defence.

This approach ignores the fact that the complainant is not supposed to be on trial and moreover trial by ordeal has never been part of the criminal justice system in Canada. Yet these ordeals continue to occur and may result in sexual offence victims deciding not to report offences or not to participate as witnesses.

The willy-nilly production of personal records to the accused is having a serious and devastating impact on sexual offence complainants and on record holders themselves. Some claimants will decide not to participate as witnesses in the prosecution. Some may decide not to report an offence to the police. Others may report to the police but forgo the counselling or treatment essential to their recovery and well-being due to fears that these personal records, whether generated before or after the offence, will not be kept private during the court process.

The impact is also experienced by record holders, including hospitals, sexual assault centres, social service agencies and doctors who are incurring substantial legal costs to appear in court to respond to subpoenas. In addition to the legal costs, such appearances take the record holder away from their day to day work of helping people, that is, doing what they ought to be doing. The very act of issuing a subpoena to a record holder cannot be ignored. Whether the records are even remotely relevant to the proceedings or not, the record holder must respond.

The consultation process also reveals situations where subpoenas for records were issued to the service providers who had never met, treated, or counselled the complainant at all. In other words, these subpoenas were simply fishing expeditions.

I am not suggesting that a person should not have an opportunity to pursue the best defence available and defence counsels do acknowledge that relevance is a factor in accessing information and records. However, relevance appears to take on different interpretations in sexual offence proceedings and does not appear to be a very significant hurdle to access to those records.

In describing the current situation that Bill C-46 will address, the minister has consistently referred to the impact on sexual offence victims in a generic way. However, let there be no mistake. We are talking about women and children. Our sexual offence laws and, indeed, all our laws apply equally to men and women in the sense that they are gender neutral. A man or woman can sexually assault another man, woman or child, but the overwhelming majority, that is 99 per cent, of sexual offence victims are women and children.

While the law is on its face gender neutral, when it comes to sexual offences the impact of the law is disproportionately felt by women and children. The production of personal records raises more than simply rights of privacy and the rights of full answer in defence. It raises equality issues and thus the solutions to this problem must squarely address these equality issues.

One of the most troubling aspects of the impact of the production of records is that it runs counter to the spirit of reform of our sexual assault laws which the federal government has been attempting for the past 20 years.

In the past, our laws have not adequately served victims of sexual offences. Before the substantive reforms to the sexual assault provisions of the code, in 1976 and later in 1983, the successful prosecution of the offence of rape was extremely difficult. The evidentiary provisions required the victim's evidence to be corroborated and left the victim's personal life, including sexual history and reputation, virtually an open book.

The reforms of 1983 attempted to eradicate long, outdated myths about sexual offence victims and their behaviour. However, despite the reforms of 1983, which repealed the old offences, including rape, and put in place the current sexual assault offences and which repealed the restrictive evidentiary provisions, attitudes about sexual offence victims have been slow to change.

Thus, it was necessary for further amendments in 1992 to restore the rape shield protections in the Criminal Code to safeguard the complainant's sexual history to as great an extent as possible without adversely affecting the rights of the accused to a fair trial.

Today we are faced with dealing with yet another issue which threatens sexual offence victims and indeed every woman's confidence in the criminal justice system. We must take this opportunity to put the progressive reforms of our sexual offence laws back on track. We must take the-

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member still has approximately 28 minutes in his discourse. I see he is coming into another section. As it is almost 2 p.m. we will proceed to statements by members and he will have the floor when debate is resumed.

Citizenship ActStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rose-Marie Ur Liberal Lambton—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, during 1997 Canadians from coast to coast to coast will be celebrating a special milestone in the history of this country.

January 1, 1997 marked the 50th anniversary of the Canadian Citizenship Act. Prior to the passage of this important legislation, legally there was no such thing as a Canadian.

The inspiration behind the drafting of the Citizenship Act is a story worth telling. In February 1945 cabinet minister Paul Martin Senior visited a military cemetery in Dieppe, France. Struck by the varied ethnic origins of the soldiers' names on the gravestones, Mr. Martin concluded that the one thing that united them all was that they were Canadians.

With the blessing of Prime Minister King, Mr. Martin drafted a Canadian Citizenship Act and presented it to the House of Commons in 1946 where it was passed with overwhelming support.

This 50th anniversary is an opportunity to think about how precious our Canadian citizenship is and a chance for all Canadians to reflect with pride on how much we-

Black CommunityStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Bloc

Osvaldo Nunez Bloc Bourassa, QC

Mr. Speaker, February is black history month. The black community's significant contribution in Quebec and Canada warrants recognition. I draw particular attention to the major contribution made by the Haitians, who are well represented in my riding of Bourassa in Montreal North.

It was in 1606 that the first blacks arrived in New France, but it is more their endless struggle to throw off the yoke of slavery that we should be remembering this month.

In our more pluralistic society, racism and discrimination remain a fact of life. Only sincere political will can put an end to such injustice. On behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, I offer the black community in Quebec and Canada our respect, our pride, our support and our gratitude.

Goods And Services TaxStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Reform

John Williams Reform St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, the GST continues to be a thorn in the side of all Canadians. The Liberals have double-crossed, danced around and window dressed the GST to no avail.

During this Parliament, government revenues have increased by $26 billion a year. The GST only brings in $16 billion a year. This proves that the government could have lived up to its promise to axe, scrap and abolish the GST. It proves that it could have lived up to its commitment without introducing another tax. It demonstrates that the Liberal government will take a tax dollar wherever it can find it, squeeze it or collect it. The concept of tax relief has never crossed its mind.

We know that the government has misled Canadians. The Prime Minister has already acknowledged that he has done so. Let me remind the Prime Minister and his Liberal caucus that they can mislead some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but they cannot mislead all of the people all of the time and they will find that out at the next election.