House of Commons Hansard #68 of the 36th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was hrdc.

Topics

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

March 21st, 2000 / 10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

moved:

That this House condemn the government for the poor management seen at the Department of Human Resources Development, particularly in the award and use of grants for partisan purposes, and that it recommend the creation of an independent public commission of inquiry, whose members will be appointed by the House, and whose mandate will be to inquire into all practices of that Department and to report to the House by September 19, 2000.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Verchères, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I simply wish to bring to your attention that the hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques will be sharing his time with the hon. member for Québec and that, subsequently, other Bloc Quebecois members will be sharing their time in the same way.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to recall the theme of today's opposition motion, which states:

That this House condemn the government for the poor management seen at the Department of Human Resources Development, particularly in the award and use of grants for partisan purposes, and that it recommend the creation of an independent public commission of inquiry, whose members will be appointed by the House, and whose mandate will be to inquire into all practices of that Department and to report to the House by September 19, 2000.

Everyone in Canada is now aware that the Minister of Human Resources Development is responsible for an administrative scandal relating to the funds available for all grant and contribution programs.

The first part of our motion relates to the poor management seen at Human Resources Development Canada. It may be worthwhile to remind hon. members that, according to an internal departmental audit, 87% of cases bore no indication of the supervision of officers dealing with projects, while 75% of projects receiving contributions had no indication of whether the expected results had been attained.

Particularly in the case of job creation programs, they are able to announce to us how many jobs they want to create, but unable in a single case to tell us whether the objective has been met, and particularly unable to indicate whether the business used the money for the planned purposes. This is a very concrete example.

It is also said that 70% of projects have no invoices or pay stubs to justify expenditures. In 36% of cases where funding was increased, no reason for the increase was given. For 36% of budgets in which there was money given in addition to the original amount, they were unable to justify the increase.

It will surprise no one that the Bloc Quebecois is today calling for an independent public commission of inquiry into the matter. From the day the minister made public the findings of the internal audit, instead of taking a responsible attitude and seeing to it that they got to the bottom of the whole situation, the Liberal government and the Prime Minister—who is very much involved in the problems at HRDC—had no other concern but to cover up the situation. They tried to conceal from Quebecers and Canadians the fact that, at HRDC, they had lost control of the management of all the jobs creation grant programs and all the grant programs aimed at helping handicapped people and fostering literacy.

The government is unable to say what was done with the money and what it wanted to do with it. It is hiding behind a six point program that should deal with the situation in the future, but refusing to get right to the bottom of what happened in the past.

For weeks, during oral questions period, the Prime Minister simply stated “There is no problem. The only problem involves $251”. Yet, we were talking about $1 billion. We have seen that when this Prime Minister wants to hide from realities, he is very good at doing so, but he has no right to try to conceal the fact from every Quebecer and Canadian.

Thanks to the probing by the opposition parties, we have learned, over the past few weeks, all about the $251 problem. For example, we have found a $150,000 grant that was supposed to go to the riding of Rosemont but ended up in Saint-Maurice. We still do not know what actually happened to the money. An investigation was launched further to the questions asked by the member for Rosemont.

The same thing happened in other cases brought to light by the members of the opposition. The Bloc Quebecois has exposed the whole story behind Placeteco, revealing how the company was managed and how the friends of the regime have benefited from the whole operation. We always have to force the minister to reveal the facts, one question at a time. She has a reactionary style of management.

Every time we manage to show her a file that has not been handled properly, an investigation is launched. This amount of $251 which the Prime Minister referred to again and again in the House lead to at least 19 RCMP investigations.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

René Laurin Bloc Joliette, QC

That is scandalous.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Last week, I asked the following question to the Department's director of internal audit. “How many of the internal audits you have made since you took up your duties have led to an investigation by the RCMP or any other police force before this particular audit?”

His answer was really significant: none. Of all the previous internal audits, none had led to a full blown investigation. If 19 investigations are now being conducted by the RCMP or other police force, it must be because there is something fishy going on. At any rate, this shows there is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Basically, there are two periods that need to be analysed, which is one reason why the House should adopt this motion. The first one is the period during which the current Minister for International Trade was in charge of the Department of Human Resources Development. That is when everything was done wrong. It has been found that, during that period, the federal government managed public funds without proper control.

Day after day, during question period, the minister would tell us “Job creation programs are doing very well and the youth employment strategy is an excellent program. Don't worry, we got tough on the unemployed, but, on the other hand, we are very good at managing the available funds and creating jobs”.

This time last year, the Bloc Quebecois exposed the fact that HRDC officials had quotas to meet. This means that there is a double standard in that department. When it comes to harassing the unemployed and taking as much money as possible from workers and businesses, all the necessary controls are in place. The unemployed worker who receives $275 or $250 a week in benefits should be careful not to make any mistake because he will get caught in no time.

There are investigations under way that cost $150,000. A $1 million dollar loan to the National Bank was supposed to create jobs. No jobs were created with that money, but there is no problem. It is perfectly normal. Jobs were consolidated but no new jobs were created, even though that money was supposed to help create some 40 new jobs. There is no investigation, nothing.

In all these situations, the minister hides behind answers that provide no new information. This is why a public inquiry is necessary.

We tried to find out why the government treated the administrative discrepancies this way. We might have said that had there just been the discrepancies, it would be easy to get out of it. The government should say “There have been errors, we are going to change the situation, look at what was done in the past and try to correct our past errors”.

We wondered why the government had this attitude. The answer lies in its use of the transitional jobs fund in order to win the 1997 election in a number of ridings. Let us look at the facts.

During the 1997 election campaign, in the few months preceding and following it, the government spent 54% of the amounts accorded over three years. In other words, in eight months, 54% of the money was spent on projects. By some chance, 63% of the money was spent in the ridings of Bloc members. That means the government decided to use the transitional jobs fund as a partisan tool, to advertise the Liberal Party of Canada, as a means of criticizing the opposition parties, but they used public money to do it.

They decided to use the transitional jobs fund in order to buy votes. Today, we know why the federal government does not want an inquiry, does not want the facts to come out. It is not because of a malversation of funds. The federal government knows about malversations, mismanagement of public funds; we saw this last year. We have seen the deficits they created. Today we see that the problem in Department of Human Resources Development exists in other departments as well.

The real reason is that it exposed the system put in place by the Prime Minister, a system that allows the government to use public funds to win elections, particularly in ridings where the outcome is uncertain. We will recall that, in the riding of Saint-Maurice, 58% of people voted yes in the 1995 referendum. The Prime Minister of Canada was not at all certain that he would win in his own riding.

As we can see, they decided to turn on the tap. Memos written by officials state that “it is imperative that this particular issue succeed, because that is what the Prime Minister wants”. Numerous cases were exposed, some in stories like the one broadcast by Radio-Canada yesterday evening, which clearly show that, politically, there is something fishy going on in the riding of Saint-Maurice.

To have good political debates, to have people who opposing views, whether they are federalists, sovereignists, Liberals or Bloc Quebecois, is normal. What is unacceptable is to undermine democracy by creating a patronage system designed to influence voters using every taxpayer's money.

Let us not forget that the money given away by Human Resources Development Canada is not that of the members of the Liberal Party of Canada, but that of all taxpayers in Quebec and in Canada. It was intended to help create jobs in all the ridings, in compliance with the rules.

The best example of what the Liberal government did can be found in the riding of the minister responsible for the transitional jobs fund. To qualify for a grant, ridings must have an unemployment rate higher than 12%. The government decided to give grants to businesses located in the minister's riding and invented a new rule to support its decision. Under that rule, in ridings where the unemployment rate is below 12%, grants may be awarded if there are so-called pockets of poverty.

I will conclude with the example involving the minister's riding. The problem is that the other ridings in Canada were never informed of that rule. So, the minister herself used the transitional jobs fund for her own partisan purposes. This is why all Quebecers and Canadians want an independent public inquiry. Action must be taken to correct this unacceptable situation.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with some interest to the member opposite. In terms of what he was saying, I am offended that he would paint the Prime Minister and the people of Shawinigan, and Saint-Maurice, the riding which the Prime Minister represents, into a corner and make the implication that the Prime Minister, as any good member of parliament, should not work very hard on behalf of his constituents.

I reject that premise. I reject the implication of the member opposite because it is not only wrong, it is duplicitous. Why will he not understand that a good member of parliament can be effective, as the Prime Minister is repeatedly, to ensure that the kinds of job creation programs are put in place not only in this case in Quebec but across Canada in the best interests of Canadians, groups in the ridings, students, young people, the disabled and others who genuinely require these kinds of grants.

Why is it that he always has to reduce everything we do in the House somehow into an aggrieved state that he must project and talk about? It is unfortunate. He should stand on his feet and congratulate the Prime Minister for working very well on behalf of Quebecers and for doing the kind of work that is necessary not only for Quebecers wherever they live in Quebec but for all Canadians. He should stand and give congratulations but instead he always has to feel aggrieved. Why?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I agree that all members have the responsibility to contribute to the good functioning of their region, but we should all play by the same rules. We are also entitled to expect that democracy will be respected.

On December 15, 1999 the Prime Minister said “Mr. Fugère never worked for me and has never been on the executive of my riding”. It was later demonstrated that Mr. Fugère is an acquaintance of the Prime Minister and that he gets a cut on the grants he obtains. There is, for instance, this $11,500 cheque from the Grand-Mère Inn for a $100,000 grant for which no evidence was filed. I can say—

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, would you please ask the chatterbox across the way to shut up so that I can carry on?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Continuing with questions and comments.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Speaker—

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I had not finished my speech.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

No. We must now move to another question. The time provided for the answer has now expired, and the hon. member for Beauséjour—Petitcodiac has the floor for another question.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to see how annoyed government members get when we speak the truth in the House.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

I thank my colleague from the Bloc. I find it really interesting how angry Liberal members are today, hurling all kinds of insults.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

If they could only keep quiet, perhaps I could make my comments. This certainly shows a serious lack of respect on their part.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

An hon. member

Mr. Speaker, have these chatterboxes shut up.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

I thank my colleague from the Bloc for giving me the opportunity to speak on a very important issue, especially since we, members from eastern Canada, know that there are very serious problems in our regions, which have been caused by this government.

Would my colleague agree that instead of making deep cuts in the employment insurance program and wasting $1 billion, the government should have cut less?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I understand very well my colleague's anger because she lives in a region similar to mine, with many people on employment insurance, seasonal workers, people who work very hard to earn a living to provide for their families.

Now we find out that this department, which keeps such a tight rein on the unemployed, has set recovery quotas for each Canada Employment Center. Failure to meet the quotas resulted in employees losing their job. I am not making this up. This is what departmental memos are saying.

On the other hand, when it comes to the transitional jobs fund, the government does not hesitate to help itself—this is the way Liberals do things—to taxpayers' money to win elections, particularly in the riding of Saint-Maurice, by putting in place an unacceptable system in our society.

This is the sort of attitude that was witnessed 50, 60 or 70 years ago. I trust the hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington would be well inspired to read the documentation. It contains overwhelming evidence, and we can table it. We are calling for an independent public inquiry because we are sure that if the facts come out the Liberal government will look so bad that it will lose the next federal election.