House of Commons Hansard #130 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was representation.

Topics

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

In his comments the hon. member for Delta--South Richmond indicated, as did the hon. member for St. John's West, that some of these employees may have felt intimidated. I have no doubt that may be the case but even if I were to find that it was, how does that impact on the privileges of members of this House? That is the issue that I feel I have to deal with as Speaker in making a ruling.

Despite the very able arguments of the hon. member for Delta--South Richmond, I am not persuaded that the privileges of hon. members are in any way impeded because these persons may have felt some intimidation in that they had to report meetings they had with MPs.

The Standing Committee for Fisheries and Oceans, in its work, is free to call these people and ask them questions. Once called before a committee they can be required to testify under oath. Therefore there is no question that the committee and members have full access to the information they need through other avenues than having private meetings with members of the Coast Guard. The committee can make its own decisions in this regard. It is master of its own proceedings and members can take full advantage of that and get the information they need

Therefore I am afraid I cannot find any question of privilege raised in the matters before me today.

On a point of order, the hon. member for Fraser Valley.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, yesterday you asked for additional information on the point of privilege I had raised in the House regarding the release of the Public Service Commission audit on the office of the privacy commissioner, and I would like to bring a little more information to your attention.

In the report is a brief description of the background that triggered the audit. The report states:

As a result of an assessment of the risks to the integrity of the staffing process at the OPC, the PSC will undertake an audit of staffing and recruitment at the OPC. This audit has been initiated to address concerns raised by the PSC’s Thematic Review on Competency and Fairness, the PSC’s assessment of departmental staffingperformance, in addition to a formal request from the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates regarding the OPC’s staffing practices and its management of staffing.

The audit's terms of reference clearly indicate that they were supposed to report to Parliament. The terms of reference are as follows:

The audit team will report to the Commission on its findings, conclusions and recommendations with an objective to provide a final report to Parliament, in both official languages, by September 30th, 2003, consistent with the intention of the Office of the Auditor General. Investigation reports, if required, are subject to the Privacy Actand will, as a result, be provided to those directly involved after they are finalized.

Mr. Speaker, I would just bring to your attention that, although initiated by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the request was made that this information be brought to the attention of Parliament. The fact that it was released first to the media, then to the public and then finally to Parliament, to me is at odds with not only conventional practice but also at odds with the direct request made by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates earlier.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

I thank the hon. member for Fraser Valley for his additional assistance on the point. I will keep it in mind when preparing the ruling that I am hoping to give very shortly on this important matter.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

When the House broke for question period, the hon. member for Surrey-Central had 10 minutes remaining in the time for questions or comments in respect to his speech. Questions or comments?

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Scarborough--Rouge River.

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3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the subject of debate today is one which has been before us previously and may well be before us again. It is an initiative proposed by the hon. member who moved the motion that Canadians look at proportional representation, or at least engage in a referendum considering the adoption of a proportional system of elections to bring members to the House of Commons.

Over my years here, I and I am sure most of my colleagues in the House, have had some introduction to proportional representation as an electoral mechanism. It is not used generally in this country. It is not used generally in our neighbour to the south. It is used in a new way in election to the legislatures in, I believe, Wales and Scotland in the United Kingdom. It is not used yet, and who knows, it may never be, in the mother of parliaments, at Westminster in the U.K. The system is used in differing ways in different countries around the world.

The reason people, institutions and academics put forward proportional representation as a mechanism for electing persons to assemblies and parliaments is that from a general philosophical point of view a proportional representation system provides a better mathematical reflection of parties and the views and ideas of parties based on a party system. It is not that the individuals who put forward these proposals think that our system is irrevocably broken. They generally are trying to make our system a little better. However, as I have looked at this over the years, I think we are served quite well by our present electoral system.

Those alleging that something is broken and has to be fixed may well do so. If something in our system is broken or something needs revision, updating or fine tuning, and there may be things that need updating, I am of the view that it is not our electoral system. It may be that the way we do things around the House of Commons needs to be updated. It may be that members of Parliament have to do things differently.

I maintain that there is nothing wrong with the way that we got here. Our system, sometimes called first past the post, is not only adequate, it has served us extremely well. For reasons I hope to review in my remarks here today, it serves us extremely well and I believe, better than any other system that might be proposed.

I do not look negatively on those who do propose it though. They are simply doing their jobs, thinking out loud. There are probably not too many university political science classes looking at these issues that do not think somewhat positively about a proportional representation system. It seems pretty mathematically fair.

In our system now, which as I said is sometimes called first past the post, there are winners and losers. Of course there are in any election. In the current system some people complain that the government in power in our Parliament, whichever party or coalition of parties that may be, from time to time can obtain the majority of seats in the House having received less than 50% of the popular vote in the country. That is mathematically possible; in fact, it is mathematically frequent. That is the current arrangement in the House of Commons. However, as I will point out, the system serves us very well in Canada.

The current system of electing members to the House puts the emphasis on members. Voters in a constituency elect a person, a member. For most elections that person is a member of a political party, but sometimes independents run. Party affiliation has proven to be fundamental in our Canadian democracy and in most democracies around the world, however, it is not the essential element. It is fundamental, but not the sole basis on which we elect representatives. In most constituencies, voters look at the person who seeks to hold office. Sometimes they look at the party, sometimes they look at the person, and sometimes they look at the leader of the party. However the emphasis, I repeat, is on the member.

Some may say that in the current system the party in power can have a majority in the House while holding less than 50% of the popular vote, and that may be true as an overall picture. It does not always mean that the party in government has managed to obtain more than its mathematically fair share of representation across the country. In our current electoral system it is completely possible for the governing party to obtain fewer seats in various parts of the country than is reflected either in the mathematical percentage of popular vote or in the seats obtained in the House from that region. A party could obtain 20% to 25% of the votes in a particular region of the country but end up with almost no seats. The flip side of that allows the House in the election of members to reflect the views of the country at the time of the election with the focal point being the election of the member and not necessarily his or her party.

The proportional representation system as I understand it involves bringing into the House of Commons after an election additional persons, not because they were elected by constituents, but based on lists put forward by the parties. If party A happens to elect 50 members of Parliament and also has 30% or 40% of the popular vote, it will also be able to appoint additional members from lists put forward by that party. That allows the completion of a mathematical equation, but it also essentially allows individuals who were not elected to come into the House.

Those individuals will have been appointed, and that is not something the House of Commons has ever really entertained with much relish. It has never happened. It sounds more like the unelected Senate. It is the concept of putting people in the House of Commons who have not been elected by constituents but rather are people who have been taken from lists provided by political parties. Canadians may like to do that, or they may not. I personally do not favour the process of bringing people into the House just because they were on a list. I personally like the process of election from a constituency.

Let me address the election of a member from a constituency. All of us in the House represent constituencies directly. We serve in the House as representatives of all those people. We also fulfill what has been called an ombudsman role.

If something is not working properly, if a constituent has some difficulty with the federal government, the member acts in the role of a Mr. Fix-it or Ms. Fix-it. That role of fixing things that are administratively broken or unfair falls to each one of us who is elected from a constituency.

If we were to adopt a proportional representation system, I suggest there would be a breakdown in that role simply because the persons chosen from the lists provided by the parties would not have been elected in a constituency. They would not have a connection to the street, to the constituency, to the neighbourhood, to the people. Their presence in the House would be as a result of a party pecking order that had placed them on a list, not because Canadians had chosen them to represent them in the House.

Members in the House may also question the fairness or equity of having other members in this House who did not have to carry out the role of ombudsman, who could simply operate freely without having to account to a constituency. That is what the currently proposed proportional representation system would offer us. That does not appeal to me. It may appeal to some others in the House and it may appeal to some Canadians, but it does not appeal to me.

I do not want to see a diminishment in the role of members, or at least an unfairness, inequity or discrepancy creep in to what we in this House have provided as a service to Canadians since the time of Confederation.

I will now move on to the major reason I do not subscribe to a proportional representation system. For simplicity and rather than tying my tongue up, I will refer to it as a PR system after this in my remarks.

It is really broken into two parts. The major reason has to do with the structural bias, the structural suitability of our current first past the post system for a federation like Canada. Most in here will agree that the first past the post system contains a slight bias in favour of enabling a party or a coalition of parties to form a majority in the House. There is a slight structural bias. As I said earlier, a majority government can be formed with less than 50% of the popular vote.

That bias allows for the creation of a majority government which, most people will agree, provides more political stability. Between elections Canadians usually look for that type of stability. Not all Canadians are in favour of the government that happens to be in power from time to time. Stability is a very special commodity that we look for in our political system. That bias in favour of being able to create a majority government is, I suggest, an asset for this country. It is sometimes described as the genius of the parliamentary system.

It is noteworthy that the parliamentary system has found its way all across the world. In the original parliamentary systems, the ones that were put into place prior to, let us say, 1900--I think Australia was founded in 1900. Its lower house is first past the post. I believe its Senate has a modified proportional representation mechanism. But the United Kingdom, Canada and the United States, the early democracies, very successful countries, have somehow managed to hobble on into the future with our first past the post system. That is testament to the genius of the system.

As for this particular structural bias of the first past the post system to allow a government majority and avoid splintering the representation in the House to detract from that political stability, I suggest it is an asset. That is not necessarily so, as I have said, in every political science class across the country. In political science classes they do not have to run the government or a country. They just get to talk politics. One of the great beauties of the university campus is precisely that. That is where we get a chance to think and to be intellectuals. In this place, we have real politics and we have a country to govern.

That was my description of the first part of that structural bias that I wanted to articulate. The second part pertains more to what I believe Canada needs. What does Canada need in an electoral system? I may bore everyone in here by restating what Canada is in real life on the world stage. We are a huge country of many regions, many different points of view, many cultures, many languages and many religions. Just the difference in regions is enough to create differences.

Every one of these regions of our country is quite capable of spinning out political thought and political ways of doing things. We are a federation of ten provinces and three territories, but we are much more than that as well. We are not just a collection of ten provinces; we are a collection of peoples. And we need a system of government that will bring us together, not one that will reflect the parts and pieces but one that will bring us together.

I would suggest that any federation as a system of government does not need or is less likely to need or to be served by a PR system and is more likely to need and want and be better served by a first past the post system, one that has the bias in favour of the formation of a majority government. That is why I think a PR system will not serve us well.

We need a system that is more likely to overcome all the regions, languages, cultures and religions that could pull us apart and could generate splinter parties, a lot of parties. We must keep in mind that in this country the taxpayer finances political parties. The taxpayer picks up a piece of the tab, so in a country where we are picking up a piece of the tab and we have regions and groups that are quite capable of generating splinter parties, we could end up with a mulligatawny soup.

Those are my remarks. I am very supportive of our current system. I do not think it is broken.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, this is an important topic we are discussing today because many Canadians have become concerned about democracy in terms of the value of their input as well as its future. We have seen the fact that young people often do not participate because they do not feel they have a voice.

I listened to the member's comments with regard to concerns he has identified about PR, saying, for example, that federations would not be well served. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

First, there are 25 federations in the world and more than half of them use PR: Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Bosnia, Brazil, Germany, Mexico, Russia, Serbia, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland and Venezuela. Australians, for example, have a strong national identity. They have strong convictions and are a major player in the world. They are a federation that uses PR. I think that is a good example to show that we can actually have it. To address the shortcomings of Australia would be an interesting response which I would like to hear.

My second question is on the comments with regard to taxpayers' finances. As we know, we are going into an actual change in the financing of political parties and contributions. It is based essentially on proportional representation. It is based upon the percentage of votes received, so how does the member wrestle with that direct contradiction of saving first past the post and then at the same time financing based on proportional representation?

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, in relation to Australia I hope the hon. member will agree that it is only the Australian upper house that uses PR. The lower house is still elected just the way we are here. The lower house is usually the democratic house, if I can put it that way.

His list of democracies speaks for itself. I do not think there is any need for Canada to emulate Argentina or Serbia or Italy. I think Canadians believe we do just fine here.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Germany, New Zealand--

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Second, there is no difficulty at all with--

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3:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

--George Bush.

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3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who moved the motion obviously wants to take over. Perhaps he would like to answer the question.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am not sure about answering the question, but I suspect there is another question coming.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question in view of the fact that only three democracies in the world with more than 8 million people use the pure first past the post system: India, the United States and us. Let us not forget that George W. Bush got 550,000 fewer votes than Al Gore, yet George W. Bush is president. In view of the fact that only three countries in the world use this system of pure first past the post, I just wonder why the member across the way can defend not taking a look at bringing in a measure of PR and letting the people decide through a national referendum.

Every emerging democracy in the world has looked at our system. The Soviet Union collapsed and they all looked at our system and at other systems. Not one new country decided to adopt the first past the post system.

If no one is adopting it, people are moving away from it and we only have three countries with more than 8 million people using it, why is this member stuck in the past? Why is he so conservative, so archaic and such a dinosaur in terms of his thoughts on electoral reform?

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for allowing me a response. I hope he will keep to himself while I answer his question. He did not want to listen to my last answer.

I accept that other mechanisms we use here in this country will look at proportional voting in the prior election; I do not have a problem with that. But I have already clearly stated why I believe first past the post serves Canada. Other countries are not walking away. Other countries may not be adopting the system. I do not think Canadians want to adopt the American system or the Australian or the Argentinian. I think we have a system that works real well now. I am saying, “If it's not broken, let's not fix it”.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to go back to an issue that I think is very important and that is political financing, where we are using proportional representation to determine the finances of the member's party.

How does the member reconcile this direct conflict? The Liberal Party is going to receive financial contributions from the taxpayers based upon the percentage of vote that they received in the election. At the same time they will not accept proportional representation for the seats they would actually get through the voting system.

How does the member reconcile this conflict, a clear conflict? They are getting the cash, but they will not allow others to get the representation.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member refuses to simply accept that our electoral system elects members.

If we are talking party financing, then I am happy to look at the proportion of vote that a party gets, but if we are electing MPs we are electing MPs. We are electing MPs, real MPs who represent real constituencies, not MPs who come from party lists and pieces of paper and who are party hacks, but real MPs. That is what our system elects to this place now. I maintain that this is exactly what Canadians want to have in place for the next while.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure where the member gets the idea of party hacks from unless he is looking at the Senate, where prime ministers in the past appointed a lot of party hacks. I do not want that kind of system.

What I want is an open, democratic system where we have the best of both worlds. We have local MPs, such as in Germany. There are 13 countries using the mixed member proportional, where they have local MPs and they have PMPs also elected proportionally. The proportionalists are used to compensate for discrepancies in the first past the post system. Those MPs elected on the proportional lists can represent regions. They can be elected directly. There is no reason why they cannot.

We can use such things as a single transferable ballot. There is no reason why we cannot have rules and regulations that say that people that appear on the lists have to be democratically elected through a convention, through a primary, through one member, one vote, or through a single transferable vote. Then they are responsible to their own constituents in their own province and their own region.

The senators today are supposed to be representing their provinces. We have six in our province of Saskatchewan who are supposed to represent Saskatchewan. There is no reason why we could not have some proportionally elected MPs from Saskatchewan to represent Saskatchewan as a whole.

There is nothing there that contradicts anything he is saying. They would still be accountable. They would still be elected. They would still be accountable to constituents every four years when they would go back for election. They would still have riding offices. They would be no different from us. They would be elected riding by riding. We are elected riding by riding. They would still have constituents. Their constituencies would be bigger, but they would still be accountable. It is still the same principle.

This is the kind of thing that operates in 13 countries in the world and there has been no conflict in terms of class one and class two MPs. I wonder what problems the member sees with that kind of system.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the member's articulation of the problem is bang on: there are two classes of MPs. I do not like two classes of MPs. If the MPs are appointed from lists, then it is no different from having the Senate appointed from lists.

If the system were to allow for the election of the so-called PR representatives I would not criticize it so aggressively, but right now all the systems I have seen involve the party hacks list and members sitting in a House who do not represent a constituency and who are accountable not to particular electors but to party administrations.

While that may work in some countries, I believe that this country is best served by the existing system, which has, I agree, the bias in favour of producing a majority in the House without necessarily having a majority of the popular vote. I like it and I do not think it is broken.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, the member's provincial leader, Dalton McGuinty, is willing to put to the people of Ontario a question on electoral reform, including PR. I searched his website. I have a copy of his statements here. I wonder whether the member would support his provincial leader in doing that and, if so, why would he not support the same thing at the federal level?

He also knows that his dear friend, the Liberal premier of British Columbia, is looking at electoral reform and possibly also at proportional representation. The Liberal premier of Quebec, Jean Charest, referred to it in the throne speech, referring to PR in the election after the next as being part of the way to elect members to the national assembly.

This is not alien to the thoughts of various Liberals across the country. Does he just object to this at the federal level or does he object to the principle right across the piece?

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am not so sure that the individual mentioned is my leader. My leader sits right over here on my left, but the member can draw connections wherever he will.

I have to be very brief. I have no problems with any province looking at PR, not at all. They will make their own decisions. But a province is a province, which is so big, and Canada is a country of regions, which is much bigger.

I have already indicated why I like the structural bias in the current system. It might be interesting to see the provincial experimentation if they really do go there. I am not so sure they will. If they do, I will look at it objectively.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I was not particularly surprised by the comments of Liberal members, but I am grateful for the motion introduced by the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.

However, before I read the motion, I want to talk a bit about the Liberal Party's opposition to this motion. It is rather easy to identify its reasons for opposing this motion.

There is some pretty deep thinking involved here. The party in power thinks that if this is the best country in the world, with the best electoral system in the world and the best government in the world, then nothing should be changed. Except that I will shake up the Liberals a bit by advising them to read a certain UN report—wake up everybody—because we are no longer the best country in the world. Our rating has slipped. The Liberals are so used to being the best that they ensure we are also the best at scandals and fraudulent activities. To this end, they exaggerated and extrapolated their obsession with being first at everything. This is true when it comes to politics, expect that, at some point, we need to slow down. Other people should do that. The courts will rule too on their waste and spending habits, on the somewhat less elegant ways they compensated their friends or those to whom they gave money, later asking for 12% back. This was the case in some provinces or some organizations. Fortunately, that way of doing things has been rectified.

So it is understandable, but perhaps we should look at reality in 2003 and say that examining a position does not necessarily mean one admits to being “the worst”. There is some place between the “best” and the “worst”. Do not worry; if we study this, there will be no problem.

But this debate is on the motion of the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, who appears to have been making this a personal issue for a number of years. Permit me to read the motion:

That this House call upon the government to hold a referendum within one year—

I like this part of the motion better.

—to determine whether Canadians wish to replace the current electoral system with a system of proportional representation and, if so, to appoint a commission to consult Canadians on the preferred model of proportional representation and the process of implementation, with an implementation date no later than July 1, 2006.

Personally, I think it would have been much better to ask for the creation of a committee that would hold public consultations and report back in 2006. For reasons I do not understand, they want to make the process more complicated. But it is hard to be opposed to the principle.

We could hardly oppose it, for one simple reason: in Quebec—another distinction or difference—we have not been afraid to engage in this debate and have been doing so for more than 40 years. Mr. Speaker, I realize that you are very knowledgeable about the political parties and politics in Quebec. I am not telling you anything new, but this might be new to a few members in the House.

Over the years, the various political parties tried many times to introduce proportional representation. It was under the René Lévesque government that the process went the furthest with Minister Robert Burns and his excellent deputy minister, Raymond Faucher.

At the time, there was a public consultation process. A bill was also introduced in 1984 concerning territorial proportionality. It was defeated by the caucus after having been supported by the Premier and the leader of the opposition.

So much for transparency in democracy. The Premier and the leader of the opposition agreed, but the caucus defeated the motion for territorial proportionality. At the time, the leader of the opposition was Claude Ryan.

In February—this is a little like what the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle is asking for—estates general were held on electoral reform. Countless stakeholders offered their views. These estates general travelled throughout Quebec and there was a large meeting with more than 1,000 people. People were able to discuss which electoral system they preferred or thought to be best suited to the reality of a modern Quebec.

The Liberal Party is currently reviewing the issue and a bill should be introduced during this term. However, there is a small problem. The Liberal Party made a campaign promise to introduce a form of proportional representation for the next election, but after the election they said it would be for the next election, in other words, in five or six years, and that they would review the issue in the meantime.

Forty years might be a long time, but at least we are tackling the issue and working on improving the system. When the government is ready, the work will have been done.

What the Bloc Quebecois appreciates is that the motion by the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle does not call for the change to be immediate. That is why we are surprised to see the Liberal's opposition. What we are being asked is to be ready when the time comes, when the change needs to be made.

For example, when we proposed that a commission be set up to address a single currency, they said “Look at the Bloc members. They want us to have the U.S. dollar.” That is not it at all. As they say, when the train pulls into the station, we need to be ready to get on board. So it is better to study the question before something gets imposed upon us. The same goes for proportional representation.

Are we going to wait until we have a federal election turnout of 42% before we address the question of why people do not get out and vote? There is perhaps a defect or shortcoming in the way MPs represent their electorate. Perhaps there is a shortcoming in the amount of work MPs who are not in cabinet do. Perhaps there is a shortcoming in the present electoral system.

If we study this system and reach the conclusion that the system we have is the best, then we stick with it. But if we are confident that the present system is the best, we should not have any problems about comparing it with other hypotheses so as to be able to state at the end of the process that the status quo should prevail.

We are so confident that we do not even want to talk about it; we want to hide it, set it aside, save it. What a great show of confidence.

It seems to me that we are clearly in favour of introducing some form of proportional representation. There lies the question. A form of proportional representation does not mean a uniform system across Canada. There may be a middle ground somewhere. At the very least, there are elements of the proportional system that could help enhance democracy and the representation of citizens in the House of Commons.

Because of the first past the post system, political parties that do well in an election sometimes get blanked out. We find that unfortunate.

This proportional system could have been put forward or examined at the time when the reform of the electoral system was dealt with in committee, along with the new ridings and the appointment of returning officers.

There is also a flaw in the Canadian electoral system in that 100% of the 308 returning officers are said to be appointed by the governor in council. The Chief Electoral Officer—and if ever there were a non-political officer, it is he—has requested the authority to appoint returning officers, through a competitive process, which the government party refused, of course.

In committee at the time, I argued that there should be no hesitation. I am convinced that there are competent Liberals. They may not all be competent, but there must be a few who would go through the competitive process and keep their jobs. However, the Liberals are so sure that their returning officers are good, competent and hard-nosed that they will not consider having a competitive process or proportional representation. That is what I call confidence.

In our internal documents, we have noted that the proportional system is an approach that should be part of a larger effort to enhance political institutions and parliamentarians. The confidence bias the public has for Parliament may be a solution. Under Bill C-34, the ethic counsellor will not be the only one resolving the whole world's problems, but this study could also provide a solution.

We support the principle while at the same time saying that our ultimate goal is to represent the people of Canada well, as long as we in the Bloc Quebecois are here. Our ultimate goal is not to improve the system so that it can be used for another 125 or 150 years and work to our advantage. On the contrary, we want to get out of it following a winning referendum on sovereignty.

However, on the other hand, as long as we are in the system, it is very much to our advantage to ensure that voters in Quebec are recognized in a Parliament whose electoral system could be modernized.

The most important part of the NDP motion concerns public consultations. Bogus prebudget consultations are held. On major international agreements, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade holds consultations that are, more often than not, not very serious. And, moreover, when it comes to something as important as the electing representatives, nothing is said about the way in which public representatives are chosen.

The Bloc Quebecois supports this motion primarily in terms of this need for consultation. Such consultations would lead to an exchange of ideas on the issue and would lead to future replacement models that could work in Canada.

However, we question doing this so early in the process. Studies were doubtless undertaken by various committees, or studies could be undertaken before launching this consultation, to allow people to discuss, using concrete examples, as we heard earlier in this House, those countries which have a different electoral system from our own but which are not necessarily banana republics. There are other countries and other electoral systems.

In representative democracy, the way that representatives are elected is extremely important, since this mechanism translates the public's wishes into the number of seats each party obtains.

There are two major types of voting systems: majority voting and proportional voting. In the majority system, constraints related to governance dominate, while in the proportional system, constraints related to representation are predominant. There are mixed systems as well, aiming at a solution lying somewhere between the two, and that, I think, is what Canada should look into.

Each of these types is divided again according to voting methods. Thus, even though we are in a majority system, there are different kinds of majority systems.

At one extreme, there is the first past the post majority system, the one used in Canada, the United States and Great Britain, the preferential system, as in Australia, and not so far away, there is the two round system used in France. In the last election in France, the importance of the two round majority system became apparent.

On the other hand, in the other type of voting systems, there are proportional elections that can be absolute, as in Israel or the Netherlands, that is with one huge electoral district, or moderate proportional systems with larger or smaller districts, as in Norway, Switzerland and Belgium, with a much higher rate of participation.

We are dealing here of countries with a recognized democratic system, countries that are not in the third world, democracies that could reasonably be taken as inspiration for improvements to our system. From another point of view, some say no, our system is so good that we do not even dare to compare it with others.

Finally, there are mixed systems that combine elements of the majority and proportional systems, for instance those in Germany, New Zealand, Japan, and Russia. There are variations in the mixed systems too. They can be of the reciprocal type, as in Germany and New Zealand, where the seats attributed proportionally are intended to compensate for those filled by a majority. That is one model we might consider as suitable, or at least which might provide Canada with some inspiration.

In contrast, in Russia and Japan, it is a mixed cumulative system, and the element of compensation is lacking. When correcting any failings of the current system, we must not make voting more complex for the voters, thus pushing them farther away from their representatives; we must ensure that they at least understand who their member of Parliament is, and that there are no more ridings and no more party representatives. Thus, if this study is done, one priority must be to maintain the close link between the voter and his or her representative.

There is no sense in trying to correct a problem by creating an even bigger one. That is why I am describing systems that exist in other countries. I think that if we implemented this in Canada, it would have to be done slowly and in stages, to allow the public to properly understand the improvements that we want to see made to the current electoral system.

Of the 53 most stable democracies—in other words, where democratic elections are held at regular intervals, countries with at least 3 million inhabitants and a multi-party system—there are 25 that have proportional representation, 15 that have a first past the post system and 13 with mixed member proportional. Consequently, we can deduce that there is no magic recipe or miracle formula.

If out of 53, there are 25 with proportional representation, 15 with first past the post and 13 with mixed member proportional, that means that culturally and politically, people have to identify the system that best suits them during the development of their country, and that electoral systems can evolve, as society does.

The first past the post system may still be used—this was pointed out earlier by the Liberals—in many major democracies, such as the United States. But we must not forget that George W. Bush was elected with a 50% participation rate and that roughly 50% of those people voted for him. Therefore, roughly 25% of the Americans elected their president.

In this regard, there was a minor problem in a state where his brother was governor.

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An hon. member

Minor. How reasonable.

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Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

There was a minor problem that was resolved by that state's supreme court. However, they have a good system. Obviously, they will not correct this. They will even elect Arnold Schwarzenegger; wonders will never cease.

The United States is therefore an important democracy that still uses the first past the post system, as does Canada and Great Britain. There is also France which has a two round, first past the post system.

It is important to point out, however, that this system is losing speed and is less and less popular throughout the world, particularly in democratic countries. For example, in 1993, New Zealand traded its first past the post system for a mixed system. I suppose that this was preceded by a study. It is not likely that the President or the Prime Minister of New Zealand one day decided that, “Tomorrow morning, we will have a new system”. New Zealand conducted studies and decreed, in 1993, that the new electoral system would be a mixed member proportional system to better represent voters.

Great Britain plans to reform its electoral system in the near future. The inconveniences of the American electoral system are offset by the fact that the government is formed independently of the party with the majority in Congress, and also by the fact that there are only two major political parties; obviously, the first past the post system encourages a two party system by eliminating other parties.

Canada is therefore trailing other democracies in terms of electoral reform. A study or consultations are needed to see how much our system could be changed. And if, upon the completion of the study, we decide to keep our system, we will at least have identified its main weaknesses.

Many people will say that, when it comes to models of representation or electoral systems, the first past the post system is the lessor of all evils, so we should keep it. They also say that it is the simplest. However, just because it is the simplest does not necessarily make it the best.

In conclusion, I believe that if the government wants to be prepared for the requirements of the future, for a drop in voter turnout, it would be well advised not to necessarily accept a referendum—with a little good will this motion could surely be corrected or amended—but to accept that there must be a study on the current voting system.

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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, that was a great presentation which outlined not only what is happening in our country but also what is happening across the planet.

We know many things are changing in our society now, not just the issues around our community, being the local things we do, but also in our economic development and social policy. The whole world is changing in many ways, and this is about that.

By no means is this an attack on our current system. It is an identification that we have a weakness, that we need to start to address the fact that we are being left behind. We are not even discussing the possibilities of growing our democracy to ensure it will be viable for Canadians who come forth and who feel disenchanted from it. Quite frankly, we have had people basically die for the privilege to have a democracy. At the same time, we are watching the numbers go down for a lot of reasons, and we need to address that.

I would like to ask a simple question which relates to the start of the hon. member's speech. It is the issue of whether we should send this to committee or a referendum, which obviously causes a little more complication to the referendum. It is important to highlight that we are asking Canadians if they would like to change. If they do, then we would reach out to them in terms of the study, how we want to develop the system and where we would go. It is simple to ask them if they would like to be involved with us, their elected representatives, to address democracy.

Does the member think that is important and is it a good way of describing the pros and cons of that strategy? We do not want to come through as saying it has to be exactly this way. We believe that is unfair. We want to reach out to Canadians say, “Participate with us in renewing our democracy”. This is about that.