House of Commons Hansard #26 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was resp.

Topics

Questions Passed as Orders for Returns
Routine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Motions for Papers
Routine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre
Saskatchewan

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all notices of motions for the production of papers be allowed to stand.

Motions for Papers
Routine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Peter Milliken

Is that agreed?

Motions for Papers
Routine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Bill C-418--Speaker's Ruling
Private Members' Business
Routine Proceedings

November 28th, 2007 / 3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Peter Milliken

Before we proceed to orders of the day, I wish to give a ruling on a matter before the House.

Members will recall that on October 16, 2007, the Chair made a statement reminding members that our Standing Orders provide for the continuance of private members' business from session to session within a Parliament.

In discharging its usual responsibilities regarding the orderly conduct of private members' business, the Chair reviewed all private members' business items eligible to continue from the first session into this new one. I need to bring to the attention of the House an issue that was noted with regard to Bill C-418, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (deductibility of remuneration), standing in the name of the hon. member for Hamilton Mountain.

Bill C-418 proposes to amend the Income Tax Act to provide that a corporation may not deduct as a business expense more than $1 million per year in respect of remuneration paid to an employee or officer of the corporation in that year. If adopted, this measure would therefore have the effect of increasing the tax payable by certain corporations. In essence, this constitutes a reduction of an alleviation of taxation. In other words, the bill deals with an issue of ways and means.

As indicated at page 748 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, there are two types of Ways and Means proceedings. The budgetary policy of the government is the first of these. The second type refers to “the consideration of legislation (bills based on Ways and Means motions already approved by the House) which imposes a tax or other charge on the taxpayer”.

Furthermore, at page 896 of Erskine May’s Parliamentary Practice, 23rd edition, it states that “the repeal or reduction of existing alleviations of taxation” must be preceded by a Ways and Means motion.

In my view, Bill C-418 imposes a charge on the taxpayer, but it was not preceded by a ways and means motion, which, as hon. members know, can only be proposed by a minister of the crown. I realize that this is a difficulty that ought to have been noticed earlier. In fact, it should have been noted when the member for Hamilton Mountain introduced the bill.

Accordingly, I have asked legislative drafters and procedural staff, working together, to provide early advice to members on their legislative initiatives so that members have ample opportunity to make the necessary adjustments to ensure their draft legislation does not offend House rules.

In conclusion, for the reasons stated above, proceedings on the bill to date, namely, introduction and first reading, have not respected the provisions of our Standing Orders and are therefore null and void. Accordingly, the Chair must now direct that the order for second reading of the bill be discharged and the bill withdrawn from the order paper.

I thank hon. members for their attention.

(Bill C-418. On the Order: Private Members' Bills:)

Second reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Finance of Bill C-418, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (deductibility of remuneration)--Ms. Charlton (Hamilton Mountain).

(Order discharged and bill withdrawn)

The House resumed from November 27, consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, be read the third time and passed.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:25 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in this House on a subject to which I have devoted most of my professional career. When I left university, I became a crown attorney, first at the provincial level, then at the federal level. Then I became a defence attorney. I was even the president of the Association des avocats de la défense. I was the Bâtonnier of the province of Quebec, and then minister of justice and minister of public safety. As you can see, I have long thought about crime in general and effective ways to fight it. I have also thought about the bogus solutions that are sometimes proposed and that have produced disastrous results in neighbouring countries. I would not want this country to follow in its neighbour's footsteps only to end up with the same results.

From the outset, I would say that I think we all share the same goal, and that is to fight crime. Where we differ is in how to go about it. I give my opponents credit and they should give me credit as well, especially since my past has shown that, in situations where I really had power, I could fight crime effectively. Our major victory over the Hells Angels in Quebec is a very clear example of that.

Nevertheless, I often heard from the other side that we were filibustering on Bill C-2. I do not know whether the people who said that know what a filibuster is. In French, the word is “filibusterie”. The word “filibuster” comes from the French word “filibustier”. This tactic was first used in the U.S. senate by an elderly senator who had serious objections to a bill. At the time, there was no limit on speaking time, as there is now in all legislatures, thanks in part to him. To express his disagreement with the bill, he decided to speak without stopping. He even took the Bible and read long excerpts from it, and he kept on speaking.

Today, we have measures to prevent filibusters and systematic obstruction. We have a set amount of time to present our arguments. Filibustering means using every possible procedural means to prolong a debate.

Bill C-2 groups together five bills that were introduced during the previous session, including the bill on bail. The motion at third reading was adopted unanimously, without a vote, on June 5, 2007. I therefore do not see how we could have delayed that part of Bill C-2.

Bill C-32 on impaired driving died on the order paper, even before the report stage. Once again, I do not see how anyone could accuse us of filibustering.

Bill C-27 on dangerous offenders also died on the order paper, in committee. What does it mean when a bill dies on the order paper? It means that ordinarily we should have resumed the deliberations that were interrupted in late spring, but the session was prorogued. The government prorogued it. It was the government that aborted the process these bills had to go through before becoming law. As a result, these bills could not be discussed any further.

The same is true of Bill C-22. Even worse, this bill had been adopted at third reading. Once again, it had received unanimous approval.

We voted in favour of these four bills. Where, then, is the filibustering, this tactic where members try to prolong the debate so that a bill they disagree with goes nowhere?

One major bill remains, Bill C-10, which provides for minimum sentences for offences involving firearms.

We were against it for a number of reasons, but the bill was passed at third reading on May 29, 2007.

The government decided to group these five bills together for one reason: none of the bills elicited systematic opposition. Knowing that we have some objections to Bill C-10, which I will discuss shortly, the government is trying to say that if we vote against Bill C-2 because we are against this part, we are also against all of the other parts.

This argument keeps coming up in this House, and I do not think it is well founded. I cannot understand why all of the parties keep using this argument. I myself have never used it and probably never will. However, when we vote in favour of blocks of legislation—such as the throne speech, which contains numerous measures—that means we support some measures, but are against others.

We weigh the measures we support against those we oppose. We explain why we vote as we do. For a throne speech, when the negatives outweigh the positives, we vote against it even though we support some of the measures it contains. It is utterly unfair to say that since we voted against a group of measures, we must oppose all of the measures in that group.

The same goes for the budget when they criticize us for voting against measures that we actually want to see in place. We voted against the budget because the cons, the measures we did not support, outweighed the pros. The same applies when we vote for a budget, which does not necessarily mean that we support every single measure in it.

The argument is a faulty one, but the government has come to rely on this tactic to influence public opinion during the coming election, an election that the government seems to want as soon as possible. For example, they will say that we are against changing the age of consent, even though the bill passed unanimously, and so on.

Let us get to the heart of the matter: minimum penalties. We have some objections in principle to minimum penalties. Based on my personal experience, I believe that minimum penalties do not influence crime rates. I think many people who have long been studying crime would agree with me.

First, I think that no member in this House would be able to tell me how many minimum penalties there are in the Criminal Code. People do not know the minimum penalties. In Canada, the most glaring example is marijuana. I passed the Bar exam in 1966. I started working as a crown attorney at the provincial level, and that was the first time I heard talk of marijuana. There was not much at the time. Throughout university, I do not remember hearing about anyone smoking pot. I did not even know that expression, and I was obviously not the only one.

I then became a crown attorney at the federal level and I started to work on cases related to these issues. Let us talk about marijuana and hashish from Indian hemp. The Indian hemp growing here had no hallucinogenic properties. So at the time, all marijuana, hashish and Indian hemp that people have been smoking since the late 1960s to the present day came from somewhere else.

Does anyone know what the minimum penalty was for importing marijuana into Canada? I am sure that people do not know, just like people at the time did not. The minimum penalty was seven years in prison for importing marijuana. It is one of the harshest sentences in the Criminal Code. But it was while we had that minimum penalty that marijuana use started growing, reaching peaks in the 1980s.

Since that time, levels of marijuana use have remained very high. We can clearly see that minimum sentences had little effect. The problem is that people do not know what the minimum sentences are.

On the other hand, we have an example of success, but it still needs to be taken a little further. I am referring to impaired driving. The minimum sentences have not been increased, but we have seen awareness campaigns and increased education. People know that it is a crime to drive while impaired. I remember when I finished my studies and I was buying my first car, no one talked about it. Our attitude was to consider if the person was capable of driving and we did not really see it as a criminal act. This is no longer the case.

The public has become much more aware and we have seen a decrease in impaired driving charges. In fact, they have decreased significantly. When authorities began conducting the first tests on our roads to see if people were driving while impaired, it was not uncommon to stop about 10% of drivers. When road tests are done today, with the same sample chosen in the same manner, less than 1% of drivers are found to be impaired. People have become more aware. I think of my children who drive and who, when they go to parties, have a designated driver, everyone taking their turn. These are habits they have learned without the fear of prison.

Thus, as we can see, the simple fear of a sentence does not have an impact. Plus, people do not know what the minimum sentences are. We must know a little about how the criminal mind works. I practised criminal law long enough to know a little about the subject. Does anyone really believe that criminals think seriously about the sentence they might have to serve if they are caught? First of all, most crimes are committed on impulse. What people want to avoid and what prevents them from committing crime is not the penalty, but rather the fear of getting caught. If there is a good chance they will be caught, people change their behaviour.

I also had another experience in my personal and professional life. When I began practising law in Montreal, it seemed to be the capital of armed robbery. Some of those listening may remember the famous movie called Monica la mitraille. It was a very good movie. I do not remember her real name, but I did see her in court. She was the leader of one of the groups who committed armed robberies in Montreal. There was about one a day at the time.

Does anyone remember the last armed bank robbery committed last year? I am convinced that almost no one does. Is it because thieves are now more afraid of the sentence than back when it was harsher? Why did they do it? Why has the number of these robberies decreased considerably? It is because of intelligent preventive measures. Banks are built differently and there is no longer access to large amounts of money. The risk of being caught in relation to the anticipated profits is not worth it. Furthermore, all kinds of measures have been put in place in banks and the efforts of bankers has also decreased the menace of armed bank robberies.

Putting in place a series of measures resulted in a true decrease in crime. Fear does not stop people from committing crimes.

The third example I can give is the death penalty. We abolished the death penalty in Canada 25 years ago. Since then the number of homicides has declined steadily rather than increasing.

I am not saying that we should not have sentences. We must have sentences and for certain crimes in certain circumstances they must be severe. However, the use of minimum sentences does not work.

I have another philosophical problem with minimum sentences and it is worth talking about. A judge hears a case and arguments, then weighs all the factors that need to be taken into consideration when handing down a sentence, such as individual and general deterrents, the seriousness of the charge, the seriousness of the crime, the circumstances under which the accused committed the crime, his involvement in the crime, recidivism if any, his home life, his responsibility or the influence others may have had, and so forth.

Implementing minimum sentences forces a judge, who went over all these circumstances in his heart and soul, to conclude that, even though that person should get 18 months in jail, the minimum sentence is 3 years. He is required by law, in that case, to commit an injustice. I have heard judges say that when they hand down minimum sentences.

We often forget that when we want to impose minimum sentences we are thinking about the worst offenders. When I listen to the examples given by the members opposite who defend this bill, I know full well they are thinking about the worst cases. We have to realize that minimum sentences do not apply just to the worst cases, but also to less serious cases.

I will give an example that I witnessed in my career. This will show that, although the members opposite claim that seven-year minimum sentences are not being handed out, a number of people have, at one point, served seven years in prison for importing marijuana.

I remember a young woman whose capacities were diminished after an accident. She had a daughter and her husband had left her. She met a charming, smooth talking American fellow with an education, like her, and she fell for him. He was willing to live with her handicap. He was very attentive towards her. They were in love. He seemed to have a income, without being very wealthy. One day, he left, saying that he would be sending her parcels. It was not immediately clear to her what he was talking about. Parcels did start arriving. Based on telephone conversations between them, it is obvious that she suspected that the parcels contained something illegal, because he asked that she not open them. She did not import anything. She simply stored parcels in her home. But because she suspected that there was something illegal going on, under the doctrine of wilful blindness, she was undoubtedly guilty, like him, of importing narcotics.

I wonder what sentences my colleagues in the House would hand down to that man and that woman respectively. Does it not seem profoundly unfair that the same sentence be imposed on both of them just because the minimum sentence prescribed is seven years? Since the offence involved relatively small amounts of hashish, the least dangerous drug, he may not have deserved a seven year sentence and she certainly did not. This goes to show how minimum sentences result in unfair situations. Different situations have to be considered.

In addition, the examples of cases raised in the House often appeared very serious, based on the two or three reasons for which the judge imposed such sentences. I doubt, however, that this was the case. The judge probably cited 10 reasons or so, which are not listed, for coming to the decision which is described to us as unacceptable. It is entirely possible that a few of the thousands of sentences rendered every day in Canada seem too heavy handed. In the case of a truly unacceptable sentence, the potential remedy would not come from Parliament, as is suggested by our discussions, but from the appeal courts.

In none of the arguments put forward in support of increasing sentences was an unreasonable decision by an appeal court ever mentioned.

Finally, the most important thing to know concerning firearms: in the United States, they incarcerate seven times as many people as we do, and guns roam freely, so to speak. As a result, three times—

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Vancouver Island North for questions and comments.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to my hon. colleague's comments. He talked a lot about young people and the need for education and support for young people to change behaviour over time. That is so important. We in the NDP believe we need to have these kinds of supports and education so that as our children grow up they understand the difference between right and wrong and how to behave in society.

Here is what I have seen from young people today, including my son. The member talked about how young people who go out drinking now have a designated driver. The first time my son said he was going out with his friends to a party, I was quite worried about it, but they had, among themselves, selected a designated driver. I thought that was very responsible.

What I have seen from young people is this type of responsibility, which shows a maturity in people so young, and I think that says a lot about the education system and how we are bringing up our children today. I know there are a lot of young people out there who are very conscious about the environment and society in general and who want to be good citizens.

With regard to this bill and why it is here before us today, we are accused of stalling things, so I just want to know if the hon. member thinks that it is not a little hypocritical of the government to make those accusations against our parties when it is the Conservatives who prorogued this House and put everything back to square one.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, obviously, I agree completely with the member.

In introducing this bill, the government is concerned about appearances and about correcting perceptions. It is positioning the debate so that we look soft on crime, while it is tough on crime. I remember a wonderful expression used by the member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore, who said that the important thing was to be “smart on crime”. We have to hand down the right sentences and impose the right penalties on the right people when they need them.

I am also thinking of the detrimental effects prison has on young people who may have committed a crime under the influence of other people and who may even have reoffended sometimes. If you want to rehabilitate these people, prison is the worst place for them. You have to use other methods.

There is also something else to consider. The United States has an incarceration rate seven times that of Canada. I do not remember the exact budget for our correctional services, but to reach the U.S. level, we would likely have to spend seven times more. The worst is that when these young people are sent to schools for crime, they pose a danger to society when they are released.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my colleague. A number of the elements in this bill had already been passed by the House and of course they already have been thrown back to square one by this move by the Conservatives.

One of the contentious elements of the bill is the attempt to tinker with the whole dangerous offender provision. There has been some advice given that this law will not actually stand up to a charter challenge. I would like to ask the hon. member what he thinks of that and the likelihood that we are bringing forth a law which at the end of the day simply will not pass legal muster.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, since the charter was adopted, the Supreme Court has surprised me several times. I am therefore reluctant to make any predictions as to what its ruling will be. However, I can say what parameters the Supreme Court will base its decision on.

I believe that the provision many members are opposed to is the provision on reverse onus, whereby when an application is made to declare someone a dangerous offender, that person would have the burden of proving that he is not a dangerous offender. We are talking about someone with several convictions that were all beyond a shadow of a doubt. Consequently, the individual does not have the burden of proving, but the burden of demonstrating. Once an individual has been convicted, the convictions are deemed to have been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Still, I have a hard time believing that having the burden of demonstrating in the case of something that can result in indefinite incarceration—because that is the result—can satisfy the charter criteria.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Gérard Asselin Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to congratulate the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin on an excellent speech. It is an honour for the constituents of Marc-Aurèle-Fortin to have a member with so much experience, both professional and political. It is to the great credit of the citizens and voters of that riding, as well as that of the Bloc Québécois, to have among its ranks such a qualified member, someone with the skills, qualifications and experience to guide the members of our party. He has done a great job of that in the House today, as well.

The Chair had to interrupt the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin because his time had run out. At that time, I think he was about to give us a few statistics on firearms in the United States and the number of incarcerations. He was going to draw some parallels between what is happening in the United States, a country with harsher punishments, and what is going on here in Canada.

My question has two parts. The federal government can pass all the legislation it wants concerning sentences, but when a judge imposes a sentence of two years less a day, it must be served in a provincial corrections facility. Thus, the legislation can be passed here in Ottawa, at the federal level, but the sentence might nevertheless be served in a provincial facility in Quebec. If that is the case, the incarceration will be paid for entirely by the citizens of Quebec.

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, from the outset, the hon. member has been too flattering. Personally, I think it is an honour for me to represent the riding of Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. I know that almost all members of this House feel the same way about their ridings.

It is true that I have professional experience; however, that has posed a philosophical problem. I do not wish to demonstrate false humility, which is a perverse form of pride; yet, when one knows from experience that the majority of individuals have a false perception of the problem, what is the politician's duty? Is it to respond to the misperception while knowing that the solutions he suggests will not be implemented? Or is it do his utmost to change the public perception?

I completely understand that most people still believe that crime is on the rise, which is not the case. The one constant is the publicity surrounding crimes. People will rarely go and check the statistics at the end of the year. In fact, in Canada, crimes are tracked. There is a uniform crime reporting survey for police. By the way, the crime must be reported, otherwise victims will not be able to claim insurance. So crimes are reported, especially violent crimes, except perhaps in the case of an ongoing domestic dispute. When firearms are involved, or anything like that, it is all reported.

So, who goes to check with Statistics Canada? At the beginning of the year, the service was free, but it no longer is. Nevertheless, they have comparisons. I do not remember the exact numbers. I have them saved on my computer—which is closed—but I have talked about them enough to remember. They can be found at Statistics Canada, but I know a few.

In the United States, the incarceration rate is seven times higher than it is here, and firearms are much more prevalent there. What is the result? There are three times more homicides in the United States than in Canada. Five times more spouses are killed in the United States than here, in Canada. I am told that it is gangsters, but gangsters—

Tackling Violent Crime Act
Government Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Andrew Scheer

I regret to inform the hon. member that his time has expired. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Timmins—Baie James.