Debates of Dec. 6th, 2011

Jinny Sims Newton—North Delta, BC

Madam Speaker, I have heard at different meetings that people always care that there is equity. As Canadians, we have understood that equality is not always possible but equity is what we go for.

Once again, I keep hearing this obsession with numbers. What the NDP has put forward in its private member's bill is actually a process. There are some guiding principles. Let us adopt those guiding principles and engage Canadians. After we have heard from Canadians, we can sit down and develop a plan. I am absolutely prepared to go back into my community and have this conversation because my constituents would not want us to pass legislation in haste that did not address their needs and was not balanced in a way that would respect our historical roots and look into the future.

Stéphane Dion Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Madam Speaker, I encourage my colleague to read the bill of her own party. It is not a process. It is not a conversation. It is a set of rules that the NDP wants to impose on Canadians. These rules do not add up. We are asking the NDP for a number because the NDP tabled a bill that would increase the seats in the House. When we add the number of seats needed for British Columbia, Ontario and Alberta, the Senate clause, the grandfather clause, the clause which freezes Quebec at 24.35%, at 350 seats, the NDP's rules still are not respected.

The member should table all the numbers. What would be the size of the House if she wants us to vote for the NDP bill?

I would encourage her to vote for the Liberals' bill. The House would remain at 308 seats and we would not impose on Canadians a cost that they do not want to pay.

Jinny Sims Newton—North Delta, BC

Madam Speaker, let me make it clear that I am not supporting the Liberals' ideas on this either. I am saying that the NDP has put forward principles and we need to take the time to engage Canadians in a conversation.

There is nothing wrong with putting democracy into practice. There is nothing wrong with engaging Canadians and having that conversation with them. There is nothing wrong with taking the time to come up with a system that works. There is no rush to do this today or in the next few days. Let us stop. Let us take our time. If we are going to make changes to one of the chambers of our Parliament, it should not be done in haste.

The Deputy Speaker Denise Savoie

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for York South—Weston, the Canadian Air and Space Museum.

The hon. member for Wild Rose.

Ted Hsu Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, I really must contest what the member is claiming: that the Liberal Party plan, whose numbers are available to everybody, pits region against region.

There is a principle here. If a province has a certain percentage of the population, it gets a certain percentage of the seats. If we follow that principle, we do not pit regions against each other.

I would like to ask the member whether he is being realistic, to use his own words. If every region, obeying the constraints about the number of senators, had the same proportion of seats as the proportion of the population, the regions would not be pitted against each other.

Blake Richards Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member across the way cannot accept a little criticism of the proposal. However, there is no question in my mind that it is unrealistic and that it does pit regions against one another. When we take seats away from one province to give to another, we create regional divisions in this country. It is really unfortunate that Liberals would proposal such a measure to do just that.

We believe that our proposal is the closest thing, under the constitutional guarantees that are provided and under the formula that could be created, we can find to fairer representation for the House of Commons. It would not only protect the smaller provinces but it would also ensure better representation and fairer representation for the provinces, like my province of Alberta, like British Columbia and like Ontario which are currently under-represented. It finds that balance that is realistic and as fair as possible under the circumstances.

Robert Aubin Trois-Rivières, QC

Madam Speaker, I just wanted to make sure I understood properly.

My colleague seemed to have a problem with the fact that a province, like Quebec, I imagine, could be represented in this Parliament otherwise than by its demographics. Are we being told that recognition of the nation is an empty gesture that entails no concrete recognition? If that is not the case, it seems to me that this is not a matter of a double standard. Let us recognize Quebec’s status as a nation, which gives it certain privileges that the Canadian nation is also given.

Blake Richards Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to point out that, under our proposal, Quebec would gain seats. It actually would give Quebec the exact proportion to its population the number of seats that it deserves. That is certainly what I would call fairness.

The hon. member's party is talking about trying to work with a different formula, but it does not want to define or explain to this House or to Canada what that proposal would do in terms of the number of seats in the House of Commons.

We have been very clear on exactly what the seat counts would be. We have been very clear that Quebec would receive exactly the number of seats it is entitled to based on its population. That is fairness. It is unfortunate that the NDP wants to propose something other than that. We are trying to create fairness for all the provinces of this country and that is what the bill would do.

Jeff Watson Essex, ON

Madam Speaker, obviously this is an important debate, not just to Canadians who gave us a mandate to address this issue, which was in our platform, but it is important, when we are in government, to how we relate to other governments.

In Ontario, for example, Dalton McGuinty is behind this particular bill, wanting to see Ontario move closer to representation by population in the House.

My colleague represents a riding in the west. Could he talk briefly about some of the governments out west and what they want to see the federal Conservative government deal with?

Blake Richards Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I would reiterate again that it is important that we create fairness for all the provinces.

In my province of Alberta, one of those that is currently under-represented, there is broad support for the idea of trying to create fairness for our province in the House of Commons in relation to some of the other provinces, which is what the bill seeks to do. We are proud that we have been able to find a good balance that ensures the smaller province are not losing out, but ensures that provinces like mine, Alberta, British Columbia and the member's province of Ontario receive better and fairer representation as well, which is an important principle.

Alexandrine Latendresse Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam Speaker, today, the government is putting back on the table one of the most contentious issues in Canadian history, namely the representation of communities of interests in our democratic institutions.

Since this morning, we keep hearing “Quebec”, “Quebec”, “Quebec”. The government introduced a bill to achieve better representation for some provinces that are deemed to be underrepresented. Then what happens? We immediately hear talk from all sides about “Quebec”, “the Quebec nation” and “Quebec's political weight”. Members rise and say some kind words about us.

But that is not all. Those are not the only words that are constantly being repeated today. Prince Edward Island—which everyone usually loves—has probably never before been the subject of such interest in this House. It is almost being demonized because of its four seats. There is almost a temptation to deprive the province of those seats. The message is “Prince Edward Island is bad because it is overrepresented and is destroying our dream of fair representation”. It would be so simple and convenient if we could reduce Canada's population to a simple equation. But, “heck, Prince Edward Island has four seats”. I am sorry, dear friends, dear Islanders, we really love you, so do not take it personally.

On a more candid note, we should take a moment to reflect on the comical aspect of our debate. In our day-to-day lives, we do not commonly say that Prince Edward Island's seats are protected by the senatorial clause. It is a good thing we understand each other, because an outsider listening to us would be completely lost. On a more serious note, this bill primarily seeks to change the number of members for Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario. However, these provinces have barely been mentioned since the beginning of the debate. There is also very little being said about the fact that the overpopulation problem in some ridings is largely due to the electoral boundaries within the provinces.

What is most important to us is to recognize the specificity of certain elements of our country. We can certainly try to ensure that each vote in Canada has more or less the same value, but if we look at such basic features as the geographical and cultural structure of our country, it becomes clear that that would be utopian.

This problem is illustrated by a number of factors. Each territory has one seat in the House of Commons. Their contribution to the Canadian federation is undeniable, despite the fact that their population is significantly lower than the average for Canadian ridings. Does this mean that the territories should be deprived of their lone seat in this House? Of course not.

Just as a resident of the Northwest Territories is different from a Yukon resident, a Yukon resident is different from a British Columbia resident. In my opinion, we are doing justice to the richness of Canada's diversity by making this concession and compromise. We want to reflect this difference in a spirit of respectful nation building. These compromises are connected to a long history, and to view the reallocation of seats in the House of Commons as a mere cold calculation is to deny that rich history.

This is a Nordic country, but the NDP is fighting with integrity, passion and warmth for a united Canada. To succeed in that, we have to take off our little rose-coloured glasses that see this great country as a homogeneous whole, identical throughout. That is too simplistic a vision. We are told over and over that this bill is equitable, that it is fair. But I would like to come back to an interesting point made by my colleague, the very eloquent member for Hamilton Centre, when he asked the Conservative government what this fairness is. He is correct, there are several ways of looking at it. That is the fundamental difference between the government’s Bill C-20 and the New Democratic Party’s Bill C-312.

What does this discussion tell us above all? First, the idea of representation is an ideal that can never be completely attained. Any attempt to approach it is bound to end in compromise. But Canada loves compromises. Compromise is the basis of all of our political realities. If Jacques Cartier had been able to foresee the path that the history of this country would take, perhaps instead of the word “Kanata” he would have chosen the Mohawk word for compromise: Ahsén :nen niió :re iahà :thne tsi ia 'teiorihwaientà : 'on.

Second, under-representation of the provinces is itself bound to end in compromise. In theory, in a united Canada, we should not need to divide up the electoral map interminably. According to what we have heard since this morning in the House, there is only one instance of under-representation in this Parliament: the under-representation of the Quebec nation, because for it, this is a matter of survival. All the noblest efforts notwithstanding, the Quebec nation does not feel completely comfortable. It is prepared for an argument whenever there is a proposal to shake up the status quo. One need not be a Quebecker to understand that.

I am not asking anyone here for declarations of unconditional love for Quebec and its culture. What I would like to add immediately is that I consider it to be somewhat irresponsible to perpetuate Quebec’s discomfort by introducing insensitive bills. But we must forgive the government. The Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords go back much further than the creation of the Conservative Party. Forgive them, they know not. They are wed to the ideal of fair representation. Good intentions are constitutional, I imagine. The conclusion I draw from these various points is this: fair representation and the justifications for it are fluid concepts.

We can talk about them interminably, or until Prince Edward Island has five seats, because whatever the government says, what it is doing is this: it is adopting a unique logical position and defending it. I say unique because the logic is inherent to a closed system. The starting proposition is completely made up. We are floating in the gases of a great cosmic nebula here. All of the positions are good in theory. But within this nebula there is one constant: the core of a star that exploded in the night of our history and burns in the firmament of our country: the Quebec nation. It is the solid core buried in the nebula. Without Quebec, there would not even be a discussion. Everything would be clear. Once again, we are approaching the limits of compromise.

The NDP is simply proposing that Quebec’s political weight within the Canadian confederation be preserved. That is what Quebec wants. The National Assembly has called for that unanimously.

Please understand that I am not saying that giving Alberta, Ontario, and British Columbia more seats is unwarranted. Not at all. If these provinces feel under-represented, we would encourage them to fight for what is their due. The NDP acknowledges that they are right and that the current situation must be addressed. What I am trying to say here is that these three provinces do not form distinct nations like Quebec and that the urgency of their situation is of a purely administrative nature. For Quebec, our very existence is at stake. I think that this difference needs to be acknowledged.

This Parliament has made fine and noble efforts to accommodate the Quebec nation in the past. Quebec gave the NDP a strong and clear mandate to represent it in the House. That is what we are doing. Quebec wants to maintain its political weight, which is reasonable.

A civilization that compromises is in a difficult position. Being able to serve the interests of the second-biggest country in the world while trying to accommodate everyone to the greatest extent possible is hard. That is the way things have been since 1867. This Conservative government will not be an exception to the rule, and it knows it.

For the time being, “compromise” is a word that this government does not seem to be able to utter. Without compromise, this country is but a chimera. If compromise is not sought, this country will no longer exist. Every Canadian knows this.

The NDP wishes to support this government in its decision to restore greater fairness in representation. That is the government’s initiative, and we have listened to it. I am fortunate enough to sit on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where we have heard various witnesses explain the pros and cons of the new formula, the figures on population that are to be used, and the time allocated to the various stages of the readjustment of electoral boundaries. As a result, we are calling for Quebec’s political weight to be maintained.

We are being asked for figures, figures, and more figures. How many seats would Quebec obtain under the scenario proposed by the NDP? Everything depends on the circumstances.

Why blame the party that is calling for temperance and harmony and not the party that always gives grudgingly? Take that, and you take that, and you over there take that. Moving on. We are talking about balanced representation in the House and not pieces of a pie. If we ended up somehow altering the perception of legitimacy associated with the House by acting too hastily, it would be a very serious matter. And yet, that is what the Conservative government's measures are more or less doing. The reform has a number of defects. There is a lot of noise being made, seats are being handed out willy-nilly, a fortune is being paid to make up lists of possible candidates for the Senate, and there is a lot of waving about of hands, but at the end of the day, not much is being achieved. Nothing is being done to address the deep-rooted and fundamental problems with our democratic institutions. If Quebec is robbed of even a scrap of political weight now, it will be a case of give them an inch and they will take a mile. This is not paranoia. One single department represents one of the founding peoples of Canada. If we want fair representation, we could start with that.

In closing, these initiatives in the area of democratic reform only improve our democracy in an almost accidental way. They leave the country in turmoil. They further alienate voters. And they add to Canadians' feeling of powerlessness when it comes to their democracy.

Our political party embraces this country's diversity and does not try to smooth it out. That is why I am going to support the bill introduced by my colleague from Compton—Stanstead and not the government's bill.

Stéphane Dion Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Madam Speaker, first I want to tell the hon. member that I really appreciate the work we do together in committee.

She may have noted that, when they appeared before the committee, most experts said that we could have a very representative House by remaining at 308 seats and that it would be a good thing. I know she is bothered by the fact that we keep asking how many seats there would be with the NDP's bill, but that is critical information that Quebeckers and other Canadians have the right to have. After all, they are the ones who are footing the bill.

By combining the rule whereby Quebec would be stuck at 24.35%; the fact—as the hon. member says—that we must be fair to Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia and give them more seats; the fact that the NDP, like the government, does not want to take away any seats from any province or does not have the required courage or vision; and the obligation to respect the Canadian Constitution by giving seats to smaller provinces based on the Senate, we end up with over 350 seats.

If I am wrong, then the hon. member can show me her numbers. Otherwise, she should recognize that her proposal would have the effect of making the House even bigger than what the Conservatives are doing.

Alexandrine Latendresse Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam Speaker, first, I thank the hon. member for his question. He is always very useful in committee, when it comes to presenting various views and options.

In response to his question, I will simply repeat what I heard earlier today from the hon. member for Papineau, namely that there is no such thing as a good number. The number of members who represent the population is irrelevant. What matters is the quality of that representation.

So we are simply saying that we cannot achieve a better quality of representation for our ridings by setting the number of elected members and then, with the growing population, end up with ridings that have an ever-increasing number of residents.

All we are saying is that it is important that Quebec's weight remain the same in the House of Commons. We tabled our bill, and the hon. member can look at it, just like the other ones. It is a perfectly credible bill, and I think it is the best solution in this case.