Debates of Dec. 8th, 2011

Isabelle Morin Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for her very passionate speech. She said that by abolishing the Senate, we could save astronomical amounts of money. In my riding, we are working with the government to see how we could come up with a more efficient rail transportation system in order to reduce traffic on the Island of Montreal, but we are being told there is not enough money to invest in such infrastructure.

I would like the hon. member to talk about actual projects in her riding that the government should be putting money into instead of investing in the Senate.

Jinny Sims Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Speaker, we could come up with a huge number of projects. With the amount of money we spend on the Senate, we could address a number of issues. We could lift our seniors out of poverty. We could have infrastructure projects that would improve our commitment to the environment--that is, if we still have a commitment from the government side to the environment. Really, when we think about it, there are many projects.

There will be some who would argue that if we do not have the Senate, our parliamentary democracy will come to a halt. I would reply that in the provinces that got rid of their senates, the sky did not fall. Everything carried on, and they actually got more work done. Bills were able to go through quickly. Legislation was able to be enacted quickly. Not only was the timing important, but they actually had money freed up.

A survey done in July 2011 found that 71% of Canadians are in favour of holding a referendum to decide the future of the Senate. I know my colleagues across the way are very committed to listening to Canadians across the country. They keep saying how they were elected to respond to the needs of Canadians; here we have 71% of Canadians saying it is time for a referendum.

Yvon Godin Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak about government Bill C-7 on the Senate. For several years, the government has been saying that it wants an elected Senate. If anyone is wondering whether I believe in the Senate, no, I absolutely do not, and I will explain why.

I may have once believed in the Senate but, if I did, I lost that faith. There was a time when I thought that there should be a place for the Senate and a time when I was uncertain, but that is no longer the case. I absolutely do not believe in a Senate appointed by the Prime Minister. For me, that is not democracy. In the past, in other countries, senators were appointed by their prime ministers, but those countries changed their way of doing things to take modern democracy into account. They chose to have elected senators with certain powers. For example, there are countries where the Senate cannot vote on bills related to government spending but, instead, it takes care of bills related to what is happening in communities.

I am looking at our Senate when I refer to an unelected Senate. We are supposed to live in a democratic country. There are various political parties—the NDP, the Conservative Party, the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois, the Canadian Alliance and all the others. They are all legitimate. We have the right to have our parties. Someone at Elections Canada makes sure that all the rules are followed, that everyone has a place and that any eligible person can run for a seat in Parliament. Those running for office campaign for 35 days. There is a huge election campaign. We have to sell ourselves to the public. Who should the people choose to represent them in Ottawa? A democratic, secret vote is held to choose someone—a man or a woman—to represent us in Ottawa, someone who can discuss and vote on bills that will become the laws of our country. These representatives are chosen by the people. That is democracy. It is the people who decide who will represent them, or who their members of Parliament will be. In the end, does it matter that the Prime Minister says that he wants to elect senators—people who are retiring?

Everyone knows that when someone is appointed to the Senate by the Prime Minister, they are there until the age of 75. The Prime Minister has the power to appoint people to the Senate, but not to remove them, however. A senator may do whatever he or she likes after being appointed. A senator must have done something really inappropriate to be relieved of his or her duties. No one wants to leave; they do not do anything until the age of 75, and there is no problem. That said, I do not want to tar all of the senators with the same brush.

In 2005, when Canadians and Quebeckers decided to elect a minority government, the opposition had the majority in the House of Commons. As has always been the case, if a budget is brought down by a minority government in the House of Commons and if the opposition, which is in the majority, votes against that budget, this means that the government does not have the confidence of the House and, consequently, that government falls and an election is held.

If a budget is brought down by a minority government in the House of Commons and the majority opposition votes against the government's budget, this means that the government does not have the confidence of the House. The government falls and there is an election. That is the rule. That is what protects the elected government, which has the power to trigger an election. That is where confidence is expressed. It is a vote of confidence. Normally, the government has to choose.

That is not, however, what is happening. The House is passing bills and the unelected Senate is voting them down in the other place. The Senate is voting against bills passed by the members elected by the population. I will give you an example.

The NDP introduced Bill C-311 concerning our responsibility with regard to climate change, the Act to ensure Canada assumes its responsibilities in preventing dangerous climate change. Whether we like it or not, the House expressed its opinion in a vote. The elected members voted. I think that all members, be they with the NDP, the Liberal Party, the Bloc or the Conservative Party, should feel offended, even though this is an NDP bill, that the unelected Senate voted to defeat this bill.

Our time here in the House is limited. At some point, there will be other people here. At some point, the Conservatives will no longer be in power and will be in the opposition. I wonder how the Conservatives would feel about the Senate voting against House bills, in a minority government situation, for example, during the time when they had a minority government.

The current Prime Minister himself has said previously that the Senate's job was not to vote against House bills. The House is elected. Members of Parliament are elected by the public.

A few years ago, I sent out a bulk mailing in my riding and asked constituents to respond. It was almost a referendum. I asked people whether they agreed with the Senate, whether senators should be elected, whether the Senate should be abolished or whether it should remain as is. No one wanted the Senate to remain as is. Among those who responded, 85% indicated that they were in favour of abolishing the Senate. It would be interesting to have a referendum on this in Canada. It is great to say that this is part of the Constitution, to hide behind that and to say that, because of the Constitution, we can never change the Senate. The Constitution makes a great place to hide.

However, what would happen if there were a national referendum and the public said it was in favour of abolishing the Senate? If that happened, all of the provinces would have to agree in order to amend the Constitution. Hopefully the provincial premiers and legislatures would honour the decision of Canadians and Quebeckers. We would hope they would recognize that, if the public no longer wants a Senate, it is time to get rid of it once and for all. Why are we spending money on this institution?

The bill that I introduced required Supreme Court justices to be bilingual. The bill was passed in this House. The majority of parliamentarians voted in favour of the bill. The Conservatives consider themselves lucky that the Senate does exist because, had it not, the bill would have been passed and they would now be required to appoint bilingual justices to the Supreme Court. That is democracy. Elected representatives should decide. We are the elected representatives—whether Conservative, NDP, Liberal or Bloc. The voters elected us to the House. We were not appointed by the Prime Minister. Conservatives should mull that over. They will not be in power for the next 100 years. At some point, the Conservatives will no longer be in power.

It is not right. It was not right when the Conservatives were in opposition. The current Prime Minister was against the Senate voting down bills passed by the House of Commons. What has changed since he moved from opposition to power? What has caused such a change in him?

The Senate claims that it exists to protect minorities and the regions, but it never has done that.

Anne-Marie Day Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

We are aware that a number of countries have abolished the Senate, for example Finland, Germany and Japan. And those are not the countries lowest on the list. A number of provinces have abolished the senate as well. At present, 71% of the population would support holding a Canada-wide referendum so they could voice their opinion. This morning, a member said it would be difficult to open our Constitution. Our Constitution was created to be opened when it is necessary. Processes have been provided for opening it and for agreeing. Some of them mean that referendums can be held.

I would like to hear the member's opinion on that.

Yvon Godin Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, if we hold a Canada-wide referendum on the Senate, with Quebec, Canadians can decide whether they no longer want the Senate. The Constitution is not written in stone. Everything can be changed and that is why we have a Parliament.

When New Brunswick enacted legislation to make the province bilingual, all the provinces agreed. There was no talk of the Constitution and it was not opened up for everything. It was opened only on that subject, and bill 88 was incorporated into the Constitution. We are protected by the Constitution. It was done democratically; the Constitution was opened, bill 88 was added to it, and that was the end.

So if there is a referendum on the Senate, the Constitution can be opened just on that subject. We can listen to the people and respond to their desire to get rid of that institution. The provinces have got rid of it, as our colleague mentioned just now, and it was not the end of the world. No one can run and hide anymore.

Now, members rise in the House to vote on a bill, the public looks at them, and if the members do not do a good job, in a democratic way, they can be voted out in the next election. We do not need a Senate to reject bills passed by a majority of Parliament, because we are elected and senators are not. They are people appointed by the Prime Minister. Most of the time, they are friends of the Prime Minister or of a political party. That is not democracy.

Yvon Godin Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, I have been to many countries that have proportional representation. The people are appointed through a convention, not by a leader of a party. Their appointment is not done through one person.

I am not degrading people in the other place. I am not saying that the senators do not do any work. I am asking if we need the Senate.

The member says that senate is the place of sober second thought, but that is why we have committees. If the government were to stop putting time allocation on debate in the House of Commons and let us do our jobs, if it did not stop debate in committees and let us do our jobs, then maybe we would not need that other place to do the second thought. We could do our own sober second thought. Right now the government is stopping us from doing our jobs, yet it is telling us that we need the Senate to repair things. We could do the repair work right here. Leave us to do our work.

The Conservative government has stopped debate in the House 11 times. We are allowed to debate a bill for two hours and that is it. That is not democracy; that is anti-democracy. The member should think about that too.

Jean Rousseau Compton—Stanstead, QC

Madam Speaker, that is a tough act to follow, as always.

I would like to congratulate my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst as well as my colleague from Newton—North Delta. Both of them are very passionate, and they are models in both their bearing and their ethics. I really admire their work.

On this day, December 8, I only have one thought in mind: “Give peace a chance”. Why is it so important to give peace a chance? It is important because peace is synonymous with discussions, with communication among peoples, among people and among parties, whether they agree or not. Dialogue should always be at the forefront of a democracy. It is extremely important.

The message of my idol, John Lennon, who was assassinated on December 8, was about communication and the way in which we can together discuss topics that are extremely important to society and to the population in general. Today, we are debating a bill that affects more people than we realize and may cause a chill among some provincial elected members. First and foremost, we have to respect democracy, which is a sincere and cordial dialogue. Exchanges between the members of the opposition and the members of the government should be courteous.

It appears to me that Bill C-7, An Act respecting the selection of senators and amending the Constitution Act, 1867 in respect of Senate term limits, reflects a somewhat cavalier attitude and shows indifference to the real issues that are of concern to the population.

The role of this institution is no longer required and this has been the case for decades, as was very well explained by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst. Historically, the role of that institution has always been that of a watchdog. Personally, I think this role has evolved into a ghost's role, and I am being polite in saying that. One wonders what could have led the Conservatives to table a bill on this topic for the third time. Basically, this legislative effort contains absolutely nothing that would truly legitimize the existence and relevance of the Senate chamber, especially given the fact that at no time since the beginning of this 41st Parliament have the Prime Minister and his merry band given us any opportunity for real debate in a sound democracy. Never have they done so. And believe me, this government does not seem anywhere near doing that in the course of this exercise.

In the first paragraph of the preamble to Bill C-7, we can see the ambiguity and paradox of the Conservatives' position, especially when they claim that the Senate must continue to evolve in keeping with the principles of modern democracy and the expectations of Canadians. I would be curious to know the opinion of Canadians on that topic.

In the second paragraph of that preamble, we read:

Whereas the Government of Canada has undertaken to explore means to enable the Senate better to reflect the democratic values of Canadians and respond to the needs of Canada's regions;

As for the regions, we will get to that in due course.

How can that be called democratic if the provinces' choice is not even respected by the Prime Minister?

Part 1, clause 3, on senatorial selection, states that “the Prime Minister...must consider”. There is no obligation. The Prime Minister does not even respect the choice of senators elected democratically by the provinces. Welcome to the Conservatives’ world where even evolution runs backwards. The upshot is that we will again and again be faced with partisan appointments of the kind the Liberals had us accustomed to; now it is the Conservatives' turn.

Why reform the Senate if the provinces’ decisions are not going to be taken into account and if the Canadian government is under no obligation whatsoever?

Moreover, there is a schedule in Bill C-7 that contains a whole slew of clauses that impose a legislative framework for the selection of senators. Did I not just say that the Prime Minister has no obligation whatsoever to respect the selection process? Once again, he shows no interest in listening to voters, 61% of whom, I should point out, voted against the government.

It makes no sense and it is a waste of public money: over $100 million a year is spent on the Senate.

Once again, they have found a way to spend a fortune on an exercise in which all Canadians will have participated without their decision being respected.

In the end, Canadians will not have participated. Basically, whether it is 100% of Canadians who speak out or vote, or the 61% who voted against this government on May 2, the Conservatives do not give a damn.

The NDP's position is certainly clearer and more precise than the government's. From the early days of this 41st Parliament, the Conservatives have been very vague regarding the number of subjects up for discussion, which has left us with a great deal of doubt and uncertainty.

For many year, the NDP has called for the complete abolition of this outdated institution, which in no way serves the interests of a modern country and instead caters to the cronies of whichever party is in power. I challenge the government to hold a Canada-wide consultation on the future of the Senate or even a vote on its abolition. I would respect the outcome of such exercises because I am a democrat and I care about Canadians' opinions and what they have to say regarding the issues affecting their country, my country: Canada.

Democracy is at the very core of the British parliamentary system and yet the Conservatives show day in and day out just how much a doctrine based on the private and individual interests of a party’s leaders has a negative impact on ethics and the civic-mindedness of a people.

The premiers of Ontario and Nova Scotia have publicly expressed their support for abolishing the Senate. The premier of British Columbia said that the Senate no longer has its place in our Confederation. Manitoba remains in favour of abolishing the Senate. As for Quebec, it has said repeatedly that this bill is unconstitutional. Does the government really want to alienate these provinces? Is this a voluntary move by the Conservatives, or else a strategy aimed at dividing the country to better control it? To ask these questions is to answer them, as someone famous once said. To divide Canadians on an issue on which we should seek a consensus is really perverse. What will the next step be? Withdrawing from the Kyoto protocol, so as not to respect our targets? I almost forgot that it is already done, if I am not mistaken.

I am speaking like many citizens have done to vent their frustration in recent weeks, either in our offices, or through public forums and social media in Quebec and Canada. This way of doing things without taking into consideration the real needs of Canadians does not make sense. Instead of being concerned about the health of seniors, veterans and aboriginals, the government shocks the conscience of the public to shine light on the inefficiency of public services. I am sorry, but since the Senate does not provide a service to Canadians, let us get rid of it! During the past century, 13 attempts were made to reform the Senate and they all failed. Let us get it over with!

Let us get back to the legitimacy of the appointments made under this bill. There is no legitimacy at all. The Prime Minister does not even have to accept the decision made by voters in the provinces. As I said, he is only bound by clause 3 of the first part of the bill. Does this mean he could wait until the list includes the names of people he really wants to see in the Senate?

Section 44 of the Constitution Act, 1982 does allow the Canadian Parliament to amend the Senate without complying with the normal but very elaborate amending procedures in the Canadian Constitution. Is this a reason good enough to not consult the provinces? After all, we are talking about what is a sensitive issue for several Canadian provinces, given the number of representatives in the Senate which, in itself, imposes a minimum number of members in the House for some provinces.

We are getting into a more concrete area, namely the democratic representation in the House of Commons. Since the government refuses to debate any issue in the House, what will happen to the provinces that do not agree with this reform? What means will they have to put an end to this unbelievable travesty by the Conservatives, who are afraid of any public debate?

It is unacceptable to try to divide a population that needs its elected representatives to work instead to create jobs and improve economic security in the country. As we all know, the gap between the rich and the poor in Canada is growing exponentially. Statistics released in recent days confirm it. Can we deal with the real issues and show leadership by simply abolishing this outdated institution in the 21^st century?

Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like my colleague, who is very close to the people in his riding, to say a few words about what he is hearing back home about this bill or the Senate in general. The government can no longer hide the fact that it appoints its friends, former candidates and whomever it wants to the Senate. It is starting to become embarrassing. Apparently, the Conservatives' solution is to propose making senators elected members. Are they going to consult anyone? We are not so sure. Sometimes they say it is not necessary to consult experts and scientists. Sometimes they also say there is no need for wide-scale consultation since they already have police officers or their father is a farmer. What comments has the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead heard people in his riding make about this topic?

Jean Rousseau Compton—Stanstead, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Pierrefonds—Dollard for her question.

In my riding, people are very attached to Canada's Parliament. The Compton—Stanstead and Eastern Townships area of my riding is made up of wonderful anglophone towns. People are wondering why we are wasting so much money on a chamber that, for all intents and purposes, is useless. A tremendous amount of resources are given to us to correct the wording of legislation. My constituents say that if we abolish the Senate, our work will finally be legitimate and that we are the elected members and it is up to us to get this work done.

Isabelle Morin Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his speech, which focused a great deal on dialogue and discussion.

He also spoke about Canadian democratic values. We live in a very democratic country and we should be very proud of that. During the last election, the Conservative candidate in a neighbouring riding was not elected. Then, the day after the election, he was appointed as a senator. Many people in my riding asked me questions about that. I would like to know what the hon. member thinks of the process for selecting senators. How does he think it should be changed?

Jean Rousseau Compton—Stanstead, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for that question.

The schedule of the bill contains all kinds of processes and procedures for selecting senators that the provinces must follow in order to propose Senate candidates. However, the Prime Minister has no obligation to respect their choices. This is a process that will once again cost millions of dollars to implement but will not be legitimate because the Prime Minister is in no way obliged to follow this procedure. The government is imposing a procedure but does not even want to follow it. I really do not understand the idea behind this bill.

Matthew Dubé Chambly—Borduas, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his comments.

One of the arguments that we have heard about the Senate pertains to how it was conceived. I think one of the reasons, in theory, that the Senate exists is to represent the different regions more fairly, given that some provinces are bigger than others.

Recently, we debated Bill C-10. Despite the very clear will of the Quebec National Assembly and Quebeckers, one senator became the government's puppet to a certain extent. He said that Quebeckers and the National Assembly were wrong not to support the bill. So, clearly, the Senate does not really represent the regions. Would the hon. member care to comment further on this issue?

Jean Rousseau Compton—Stanstead, QC

Madam Speaker, I have an enormous amount of respect for the individuals in the Senate. They are all noble individuals who have led fantastic lives, but this is just a reward they have been given. These people have no legitimate reason for being in those seats. Although their suggestions to the government are very noble, we will first have to make them appropriately legitimate through an election; otherwise it shows no respect for democracy.