Veterans Affairs committee  Correct. I should point out that you don't want your rights as such, in the bill of rights, subject to change by regulation. If those are the sacrosanct Ten Commandments on the tablet, then you want them to be changeable only by the parliamentary initiative. It's the regime that applies under that, for the implementation of it, that might be done by regulation.

Veterans Affairs committee  Correct, along with the commitment to service levels and so on.

Veterans Affairs committee  Let me give you an example. I was briefly a legislative counsel in one of the provinces. We had a situation that became very difficult and a matter of public controversy in the educational domain. We had the act that set standards, then we had the regulations, then we had the ministerial guidelines, and then we had the guidelines used by professional group, for their professionals who were involved.

Veterans Affairs committee  Yes, nuisance files. You have to trust the ombudsman, and the language and legislation could be there for that purpose, to have the authority to deal with those cases and not feel obliged to follow up on complaints that in his judgment are either frivolous, vexatious, eccentric, or simply don't have enough merit to warrant further attention.

Veterans Affairs committee  If a veteran can choose between the ombudsman or some other recourse provided for in the Charter, then there needs to be a mechanism in place to ensure respect for the rights conferred by the Charter. Who is going to ensure that rights are respected? Either the courts, or a tribunal of some kind.

Veterans Affairs committee  I think so.

Veterans Affairs committee  What came to mind first was to limit the choices available so that veterans first look to the ombudsman for help. I felt that it would be more effective to direct all veterans' requests to the ombudsman's office.

Veterans Affairs committee  Obviously, when all is said and done, if the veteran is dissatisfied with the outcome, he can contact a member of Parliament who in turn will decide whether or not to follow up on the complaint. Moreover, at the same time as the ombudsman's office is investigating the complaint, the veteran could direct a more detailed inquiry about policies and legislative provisions to the MP.

Veterans Affairs committee  Just on your earlier point, if I may, Mr. Chairman, the ombudsman asking if you have exhausted all your remedies says something to me. I don't know which ombudsman you're referring to in saying that, but that ombudsman may be saying that in the regime under which he or she operates, the party has recourse in the statute.

Veterans Affairs committee  There might be a bill of rights in some private associations or clubs. But no, I don't think there's anything that one purports to have enforceable that isn't somehow legislation or quasi-legislation.

Veterans Affairs committee  You'd have to have it. Do you know of any?

Veterans Affairs committee  Mr. Chairman, the ombudsman, or an officer like the ombudsman, is what you're looking for as an intermediary between the veteran and the bureaucracy. The scenario you describe, which I gather is not an unusual one, is one where simply the veteran has found himself or herself ineffective in bringing any response from the government.

Veterans Affairs committee  Right, Charlottetown. So they're not in a position to deal with it. Yes, going to an ombudsman-type person to act as an intermediary is important. That ombudsman in the legislation could have these bills of rights as his context, his criteria, by which he represents the veteran, and the ombudsman, in effect, is calling upon the government to act in accordance with these bills of rights.

Veterans Affairs committee  When the veteran was in the army, he got in line, didn't he? When he gets to the ombudsman's office, you have to trust the discretion of the ombudsman to respond appropriately and to service veterans with respect. Mr. Cuzner, I thought you were going with the idea that maybe we have to be concerned about eccentric demands upon the ombudsman.

Veterans Affairs committee  If I could just comment, as I said earlier, you could have a regime where the ombudsman simply has to find a prima facie case of a lack of adequate service, and then the onus is on the department to show that they have done it. Now the burden and the complication of legal hoops, if you like, are on the government side of things to show to the ombudsman, or whoever it is they are required to show it to, that they did everything within their power in accordance with the bill of rights, etc., and if they don't show that, they lose.