Bill C-222 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (deduction of expenses incurred by a mechanic for tools required in employment)

Income Tax Act

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, first, I wish to congratulate my colleague from Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans on his bill, Bill C-222. It is the second time he introduces such a bill in the House of Commons.

It is also interesting to see that it is the second time the bill is made votable. There is a political will to make the necessary changes to allow mechanics to write off the expenses incurred for their tools.

Members will probably recall that I tabled a motion, Motion No. 248, dealing with this very subject. When that motion was debated, the parliamentary secretary made the same speech. Instead of coming to the House of Commons, he could simply press a button and we could hear what he has already said. He could spend his time doing other things for his riding.

The parliamentary secretary was saying then “It is not right because people who earn less money, who make $20,000, can pay more for their tools because they are apprentices. They will receive less money from the government, from Revenue Canada. Someone earning $35,000 may only spend $1,500 a year, and that is not fair”.

I wonder if the government applies the same standard to big companies making billions of dollars and those making much less or even losing money. Everyone within companies is entitled to tax deductions.

The parliamentary secretary used these arguments in the debate on my Motion No. 248, when I asked that the GST on tools of all trades be abolished in order to eliminate discrimination. Today, he is saying “It is unfortunate, but it would only apply to mechanics”.

A few weeks back, he used the same argument when I was talking about all the various trades. The parliamentary secretary may have a small problem here. In all fairness, it must be that the finance minister, who is the one who has the money, tells the parliamentary secretary “This is what I want you to say. Tonight, at 5.30 p.m., you will stand up in the House and tell everyone that there is no money left for the workers”.

The government member mentioned wages earlier. I did some research back home. Mechanics working in the Brunswick mine spend $2,500 a year on tools. It may not be the end of the world, but I think a mechanic who leaves for work in the morning, carrying his lunch box, has a tough workday in front of him. He will be covered in grease by the end of the day. The work he does is important for the output of our country. He will be repairing equipment, whether it is in a mine or in a garage. As far as wages are concerned, a service station, not just in New Brunswick but anywhere in the country, is certainly not the place workers are going to get the highest pay, especially when they are still apprentice mechanics.

The hon. member who introduced this bill is merely asking that the government give some recognition, out of respect, for these people who will be expected to produce on the job all their lives. Give them a little. Someone earning $35,000 will pay, I don't know, maybe $10,000 or $12,000 in income tax. This worker might well say “With all the taxes I pay, I could at least get a little back, say $175”.

The government says “We cannot do so because we are afraid of discriminating against others. We cannot do so because we know some mechanics earn less than others. We cannot do it”.

This is ridiculous. The government never has that problem, as I have said, when it is comes to corporations that are making money and ones that are not. They amend the formula for the unprofitable ones, instead of them being penalized. There is nothing more for them to do.

On the other hand, if a mechanic has the good fortune to find a job with a company that supplies tools, the company has a tax deduction.

A mechanic who must buy his own tools, who earns a small salary, who spent four years at a community college, who learned his trade and who incurred debts totalling $40,000 cannot get this break. He cannot get an annual deduction of $175 or $200 even though he has to buy tools. This is not right because he is just an ordinary worker.

As was mentioned earlier, lumberjacks got a deduction, and I am glad they did. For example, a lumberjack has to spend about $750 or $850 on buying a chainsaw. He does not work all winter, but come spring, he has to buy one. At least, he will get a small tax deduction to buy his next chainsaw.

A few weeks ago, when I introduced my Motion No. 248, I said that all tradespeople should get a deduction for the GST.

The parliamentary secretary, the same one who is here this evening, said at the time that it would be too hard to manage. I told him that it would not be difficult if the Liberals would follow up on what they had in mind in 1992. When they prepared their platform for the 1993 election, they said they would eliminate the GST. It would be easy to manage such a program, since that tax would simply be removed.

However they did not do that. So, under the bill proposed by our colleague from the Bloc Quebecois, these workers would at least get this small tax deduction.

As the hon. member said, whether a private member's bill is presented by a Bloc Quebecois, NDP, Canadian Alliance, Liberal or Progressive Conservative member, it is a personal thing. It is something that each member can have a view on.

If the Liberals across the way refuse to pass Bill C-222 to give mechanics a tax break, this will mean that they are telling all mechanics in Ontario who work in the automotive industry that they do not give a damn about them.

In the November 27, 2000, election, the Liberals must have received some votes from mechanics in Ontario. We know that there are members from Ontario on the other side of the House.

Do mechanics in Ontario know that the Bloc Quebecois member introduced a bill calling for a paltry $175 tax break for them? I am sure that some automotive industry workers have paid taxes as high as $20,000. Others have perhaps paid more because of overtime.

Hopefully, this bill will bring the members from Ontario now in the House to their senses. I know they do not know which way to look right now. I wonder if they are embarrassed. Usually, they are right in there.

I hope that the speeches today will shake them up a bit and that they will support the bill, that they will stop complaining that they are backbenchers and that they do not get a chance to vote and must do as the Prime Minister tells them. That is a real shame. The members are on the government side. They could get things through, but they whine that they are not allowed to take decisions.

This evening, I want Canadians to know that each of these members can make up his own mind about this private members' bill. They cannot hide behind the excuse that the parliamentary secretary is against Bill C-222, that the Minister of Finance does not wish to make changes to tax credits for mechanics. They cannot hide. Each decision will be an individual one.

I just want to make sure, and I will repeat this here, that the decision will be an individual decision when it comes to a vote on Bill C-222. It is a bill and will become the law.

For those members of parliament who hide and say they have to follow the party line, this is one where they do not have to follow the party line.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

moved that Bill C-222, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (deduction of expenses incurred by a mechanic for tools required in employment), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to thank my colleague from Sherbrooke who seconded this bill. On behalf of my constituents of Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans whom I am the privilege of representing, it gives me great pleasure to speak to this bill.

For the benefit of the members present and of our viewers, I should mention that this is a private member's bill that will be voted on after a three hour debate at second reading.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues on the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business for accepting my arguments that this bill is so important that it should be made votable so that we can get clear directions from parliament.

This subcommittee is non partisan by definition. The best proof of that is that the government is represented by only two members and that all four opposition parties are represented. Therefore, the subcommittee makes its decisions by consensus.

This is the second time that I have introduced a bill on this issue. Members will remember that, before the election, I had introduced Bill C-205, but I will come back to this later on.

The purpose of the bill is to allow mechanics to deduct the cost of providing tools for their employment. In the last 15 years, members from almost all parties have introduced private member's bills to ensure that mechanics could deduct the cost of their tools.

In fact, in the last parliament, I introduced Bill C-205, which was exactly the same as this one. It was not only voted on, since it was made a votable item, but it was supported by a majority of members, with 213 members voting in favour and only 11 against.

I see across the way the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance and member for Etobicoke North, who criticized my bill at second reading. But members were able to rise above partisanship and members from all parties ignored the directions coming from the finance minister.

I think the vote on Bill C-205, where 213 members voted in favour of it and 11 against, demonstrated that members understood the hardships faced by young mechanics and came together to offer them a modest tax break.

However, since the bill died on the order paper after the November 27 election was called, here I am once again promoting my bill.

There is so much support for the provisions of this bill that, in the last parliament, even the Standing Committee on Finance with its Liberal majority recommended in its prebudget report that this tax break be granted to automotive mechanics in Canada and in Quebec.

However, the support given to this bill is only one aspect of the importance of issues involved. Several other issues deserve to be addressed once again in the House of Commons and drawn to the public's attention.

We could talk about the inability of the auto industry to attract young people. We could talk about the pressure that mechanics, most of whom earn a very modest living, have to face to buy the best tools possible at a reasonable price.

We could also talk about the lack of fairness in a tax system that allows some tradesmen, but not others, to write off the cost of their tools and equipment.

This bill is becoming more and more necessary as time goes by. The amount of money mechanics had to pay to buy their tools when this issue was first brought before the House 15 years ago has increased tremendously.

We know that cars were far less sophisticated 10 years ago. Computer assisted components, which are now standard on most cars, are as much part of the new economy as the most recent Internet technologies and services provided by new high tech companies based in Montreal or in Ottawa.

I appeal to the common sense of my colleagues on both sides of the House because, after all, the main purpose of this bill is to help young people who choose this trade.

In our society, we cannot have white collar workers only, people who work with computers or in businesses where working conditions are exemplary. Our society cannot be made up of white collar workers and professionals only.

Some young people do not mind getting their hands dirty. Because they love auto mechanics, they are prepared to slide under cars. With our climate in Canada, cars often leak and oil and engine coolant literally drip onto the mechanics' faces. Just imagine what mechanics with 20, 25, 30 and 35 years of experience have gone through.

Unfortunately, since this has traditionally been a man's job, the field has been dominated by men and there are very few women auto mechanics. There are a few but, unfortunately, not many.

By the time auto mechanics reach the age of 50 or 55, their quality of life has dropped. For years on end, these people work hard to remove transmission parts, engine parts and tires and they wreck their backs or develop disc problems. They must be recognized for the value of the work they do.

Young mechanics, fresh out of school, often have to pay between $3,000 and $4,000 for the most basic toolbox. To get a job at a service station or a car dealership, an apprentice must have his own toolbox.

The first thing that a personnel director, or a garage owner or manager is going to ask is “Do you have your own set of tools?” In order to get hired, he must shell out $3,000 to $4,000 for his own tools, not to mention what he has often spent on tuition.

Some young people studying automobile mechanics may have parents who are comfortably off, who have paid all their tuition, but others are graduating with huge debts at the end of a lengthy occupational training course, such as we have in Quebec.

As for specialists, they must come up with close to $40,000, and this is no exaggeration.

When my office staff and I prepared this speech, and I take this opportunity to thank my parliamentary intern, Jonathan Weier, who worked very hard doing the research for it, I must say that I found $40,000 a bit steep.

But I checked this amount out. I went to service stations and car dealerships and I asked to see the toolkit of an experienced mechanic. They opened all the drawers.

When I mention the amount of $40,000, do not think, Mr. Speaker, that I am exaggerating because a set of tools for a specialist can easily cost as much as $40,000. I do not wish to suggest that you would do such a thing because I am sure that, like the member for Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, you too have had occasion to visit car dealerships and realize that I am right.

Cars have hybrid propulsion systems now. In all likelihood, in the future, the more cars will have computerized components or hybrid traction systems, the more parts and the toolkit of mechanics used to repair these hybrid systems will have to be adapted accordingly. As we will recall, last year Toyota introduced the Prius , which is part electric, part gasoline. This means more expenses.

The only difference between a newly hired mechanic and a young worker at Bombardier or somewhere else is that the Bombardier employee earns a fair amount more and has all the tools he needs supplied by his employer.

Interestingly, in its throne speech on January 30, 2001, the present government made a commitment “to support training programs, support the new economy and encourage continuing education among Canadian workers”. However, the government could give workers in traditional sectors some sign of its respect. Ongoing education and training programs seem to apply only to this new active population.

However, it is unfair and shortsighted to ignore those who play such an important role in the economy of Quebec and Canada in the 21st century, even though they work in a more traditional sector.

In a much more egalitarian, more fair society we must recognize that we need all professions. I paid for my studies by doing custodial work at the Chicoutimi hospital. I was just a student, but I was still in a position to understand that while a hospital had its physicians and surgeons, it still need its cleaners. Without a “mopologist”, as we called them at that time in Chicoutimi, to clean the ER and the OR, no great surgeon would operate, unless he was prepared to do so in conditions of minimal hygiene.

As parliamentarians, we have a duty to acknowledge the contribution of certain categories of workers in the rather more traditional jobs. We need to be open to the new economy and to make way for new employment sectors. I am not saying we should go back to horse and cart days. We need to recognize that there are workers who are entitled to help, even if they work in more traditional sectors.

The high costs associated with mechanical work will continue to put pressure on the automobile industry and will make it hard for young people to get into the trade.

In a June 1999 publication, the Canadian Automotive Repair and Service Council stated that “The biggest challenge facing the industry as the 20th century comes to an end will be to attract young people to its ranks”. This is one of the major issues in this sector: the serious shortage of young people wanting to join the trade, a shortage that does not seem likely to improve any time soon.

Among the factors that influence the attraction of this industry directly is the cost of tools for young apprentices and mechanics.

As I said earlier, a young person who graduates from high school at age 21 or 22 and wants to apprentice will have to invest several thousand dollars in his work. After paying off thousands of dollars in student debts, he will earn an average of $23,000, that is what apprentices make in Canada, while a mechanic with some experience earns $29,000. Whether it is $23,000 or $29,000, we are not talking about workers who earn $50,000 or $60,000.

Before being elected to the House, I was a director of personnel in the pulp and paper industry. I know the salaries that are paid in the pulp and paper industry. I am not saying these workers do not work hard; they work conscientiously and do quality work. These people are not at the top of the salary scale, with apprentices earning $23,000.

Most professionals in Canada are provided with the tools they need for their work, but not mechanics. For one reason or another, the automotive industry, gas stations, garages and other businesses employing mechanics decided that providing one's own tools was a condition of employment.

The idea is that mechanics will be more careful with their own tools and will maintain and adapt them to best do the work that they have to do. This is particularly unfair, since there are many other professions where workers are allowed to deduct, for income tax purposes, expenses incurred for their tools.

I know that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance will say: But what about electricians? What about plumbers? An electrician does not have the same tool kit as an automobile technician.

I do hope the parliamentary secretary has changed his mind after seeing 213 members voting in favour of my bill, but we will see soon enough. During his speech, I would like him to think about the performers, the musicians and the chainsaw operators who are entitled to deduct the cost of the tools of their trade.

What we and the auto mechanics and the automotive industry associations are asking for is simply justice and fairness.

This legislation has the support of members from all political parties. It has nothing to do with the differences of opinion between the right and the left, the sovereignists and the federalists. With this bill, and I am glad I was able to convince the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business, I want to rise above party lines. We have to put politics aside. Yes, I am a member of the Bloc Quebecois and I am the one who raised the issue. I was able to convince my colleagues in the House. I was fortunate to win out in the draw. However, I am just a messenger here trying to move forward a vision of fairness and justice.

By the way, I am not a car buff. I invite members to drop by my place and have a look at my toolbox. It is very basic. I have a hard time just putting oil in my car engine. I am not good around cars. However the people I have met during election campaigns and parliamentary breaks have convinced me that something has to be done about this important issue.

I would remind those who have doubts about the possibility of Bill C-222 being passed that the Income Tax Act is amended regularly throughout the year in order to bring it into line with new social realities. As for authorities being able to prevent the use of tools for personal projects, I say that we must trust people. There is no reason to question their honesty and goodwill.

Although the government expressed a certain sympathy, it has still not taken action to resolve the problem by introducing this tax credit in the budgets it has brought down since the 1997 report by the Standing Committee on Finance.

In addition to the broad support enjoyed by this measure in the House of Commons, I have received many letters of support from organizations in the industry, private citizens, labour unions and almost all groups with an interest in the issue. The Automotive Industries Association of Canada, for instance, pointed out the growing difficulty of finding qualified mechanics.

The increase in the number of car owners in Canada and in Quebec is increasing our dependence on the automotive industry. We must address this serious problem facing the industry. In my view, the bill is a matter of common sense, justice and good financial planning. Obviously, the majority of members on both sides of the House agree with me.

I call on all members who voted in favour of my last bill to vote in favour of this one. In the name of justice and common sense, I call on the 45 new members elected in the last general election on November 27, 2000 to vote in favour of this bill.

Finally, I call on the 11 Liberal members who voted against a similar bill to reconsider their decision.

Tax On Tools

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to join the previous speakers in commending the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst for the motion he has brought forward.

We can tell that the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst has a strong social conscience. So do I. This motion is consistent with his concerns and those of some workers who do not necessarily feel supported by society.

I am not saying that these people are working for minimum wage. However, contrary to popular belief, these people spend a lot of money to buy the tools they need to do their job. The key words here are “tools they need to do their job”.

To get a job, any electrician, pipefitter, welder, building painter, blue collar worker or carpenter needs a tool kit. Members will see what I mean when I thank the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst for standing up for the workers who do not necessarily get all the support they need, who do not earn high wages but still have to incur major expenses.

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, the member for Etobicoke—North, pointed out earlier, there are before the House other bills addressing the same issue, including one of mine. I introduced my bill in the 36th parliament. It was called Bill C-205. I have again introduced this bill, which a committee of MPs has judged to be a votable item. Eventually, sometime during March I imagine, we will be discussing my bill, Bill C-222, which is aimed at allowing automobile mechanics to deduct from their income the cost of purchasing their tools.

The amounts involved are considerable. I am talking about the tools required by auto technicians. I will take this opportunity to raise the awareness of all colleagues in this House. In order to work, an auto technician requires a tool kit worth at least $15,000, and the amount can easily be as high as $25,000, $30,000 or $40,000. He has to have that tool kit in order to be able to work. Today, with all the computers and electronic sensors, a person has to have quite a tool kit in order to work.

This is a heavy burden for a young apprentice, who has just finished a course and is saddled with student debts, whose parents may not be well off and often have gone into debt to help him get the minimum tool kit he needs to get a job. From my meetings with those working in the automotive industry, I know that the apprentice's tool kit costs at least $4,000.

A young person just finishing his course and already in debt has to go into further debt or ask his parents to co-sign a $4,000 loan for him. When he goes looking for work at an auto dealer or a service station, he will have to have his own tools. The first thing the owner will ask him is “Do you have your tool kit?” He cannot be constantly begging tools from others, going into other people's tool kits. That is not the way it works.

I am glad that the parliamentary secretary said earlier that there were other bills before the House. I hope that when we debate Bill C-222 he will not tell me what he did when we debated Bill C-205. I listened very carefully to what he said. He said “We cannot agree to deductions for mechanics. What will we tell electricians, plumbers, pipefitters and welders?”

He has found a way to distance himself from the entirely reasonable and legitimate motion by the member for Acadie—Bathurst. I do not want to start taking a dislike to the parliamentary secretary, because I would like this motion and mine to be approved, but he cannot have it both ways.

He tells the member for Acadie—Bathurst “Perhaps we would not be ready to go with your approach, because there are other bills that will cover the deductibility of tools”. I am anxious to see what will happen.

I had discussions beforehand with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance. He held this position and he told me that he could not vote in favour of the motion. I met with members individually and brought the problem to their attention. I urge the member for Acadie—Bathurst to bring this problem to his colleagues' attention, because we each of us have in our ridings pipefitters, plumbers, automobile technicians, welders and house painters. These are ordinary people who are not floating in money and who are listening now, over supper in the case of those on eastern standard time. These people are eating their supper and saying to their spouse “That is right. A motion like that should be agreed to, because we need this”.

I brought this problem to the attention of members of the House and the vote at second reading was 180 for and 11 against. I therefore hope that when it comes time to continue the discussion on the mechanic's bill, we will remember the fine words of the parliamentary secretary.

I will close because it is getting late. Once again, I point out that in an earlier life, before I was elected, I worked in the field of human resources for 16 years, 14 of them in the pulp and paper industry. I think that such a deduction for the cost of tools required in employment is important.

In my work, the necessary tools have always been a pencil, an eraser and a calculator, to some extent. I am not a mechanic buff and my toolbox at home only includes a minimum number of tools. But I know that there are workers who need something like Motion No. 248, which was tabled by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. It is simply a matter of equity, of social justice.

There are other categories of workers who are already allowed a deduction, including musicians and people who must use their car to work. These people can take full advantage of the deduction. Whether or not they pay the GST does not really change things, because they can deduct the amount from their income.

It is simply a matter of social justice and equity. We just had an election campaign last fall. Members from all parties in the House, including myself, worked hard to get elected. We visited many companies, small and medium sized businesses and plants.

The member for Acadie—Bathurst introduced this motion in the House. Of course, he is intelligent enough to have thought of it on his own, but I think he will honest enough to recognize that he did so because people have made him aware of that issue. It must be understood that our role as members is to act as messengers, as spokespersons for the citizens whom we represent. This motion only asks for greater justice.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Acadie—Bathurst for his initiative in bringing the motion before the House of Commons.

I also congratulate him on his good news.

Mechanics' tools and tools required for work seem to be a very topical debate right now. The motion proposes that the Excise Tax Act be amended to eliminate the application of the goods and services tax and the harmonized sales tax for employees in trades who are required as a condition of their employment to provide on the job tools.

Currently GST-HST relief is provided via a rebate mechanism for the GST-HST paid on those employee expenses that are deductible in computing an employee's income from employment for income tax purposes.

It is recognized that presently there are a number of private members' bills, as I mentioned before, Bill C-222, Bill C-244 and Bill C-225, before the House with respect to the income tax treatment of the tools of mechanics and others.

As the GST and the HST rules should be consistent with those for income tax purposes, it is prudent to await the outcome of the debates and the outcome of the discussions on these private members' bills. I am sure the hon. member would agree.

Nevertheless, it should be stated that any tax policy with respect to the matter of employee tools should be fair. In addition, any changes should also be relatively simple to administer and enforce for the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, and easy to comply with for taxpayers. In this regard, any changes with respect to the tax treatment of employee provided tools should take into account a number of factors.

First, any measure in this regard should be targeted to extraordinary expenses. In other words, the cost of the tools in question should be beyond those that most employees must incur in the normal course of employment. The motion before the House today would provide GST and HST relief to all employees irrespective of the size of their expenditures instead of targeting relief to those who incur extraordinary expenses relative to their income.

For employees with tool expenses comparable to those incurred by other employees this would be unwarranted as tax relief for normal employment expenses is provided through the basic personal exemption amount. That is the case with apprentices. Perhaps a special case needs to be considered for those with low incomes and high tool costs.

Second, effective control mechanisms would have to be put in place. Under existing rules for income tax purposes the employer must certify certain expenses as eligible for deduction from employment income. This is important as many items provide a personal benefit even when they are required for work. One would need to ensure that any tax relief is provided only for items required as a condition of employment and not for those purchased for personal use.

This would be very difficult to do because many items could be purchased mostly for personal reasons even if they are used for work. For instance, the computers home based employees need to purchase are available outside working hours for personal use. In these circumstances providing full tax recognition and a GST-HST employee rebate would be unwarranted.

Finally, any new measures would have to both take into account the existing capital cost allowance provisions and appropriately deal with change of use and transfers to other arms length persons.

The provisions needed to address these issues would inevitably be very complex since they would need to account for the large variety of items for which tax relief may be claimed and the different work situations in which such items are used.

To understand this, let us consider the extensive provisions needed to ensure the equitable recognition of automotive expenses. Provisions governing the deductibility of employee equipment expenditures and corresponding GST-HST employee rebates would apply to hundreds of disparate items and numerous occupations.

As members can see, this is a complex issue with many aspects that need to be examined carefully. In particular, with respect to the GST-HST employee rebate, I hope the hon. members agree that it is essential to ensure that the GST-HST rules be consistent with those for income tax purposes.

As a result, I think members of the House would agree, given the number of other private members' bills dealing with the tools of mechanics and others, that it is prudent to wait for the outcome of the aforementioned private members' bills, for the deliberations of the House and for any government response that might deal with the issue of income tax deductions for employee tools.

Income Tax Act

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-222, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (deduction of expenses incurred by a mechanic for tools required in employment).

Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to permit mechanics to deduct the cost of providing tools for their employment.

For the benefit of my colleagues, I should point out that during the previous parliament, this bill passed second reading, members supported it by a vote of 180 against only 11. So, my purpose today is to ensure that this bill is deemed adopted immediately, if possible.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)