Bill C-36 (Historical)

Anti-terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism

Anti-terrorism Act

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to enter the debate on Bill C-36. I believe many members like myself will support the bill, reluctantly in one sense because we find it offensive, but in my opinion this is a necessary response to some extraordinary circumstances that call for an extraordinary response.

The bill will show that it reflects and meets the demands of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The government has been very responsive in the amendments that it introduced. The five areas of amendment will go a long way to make the bill more palatable to Canadians and because of that I will be supporting it.

What would the bill do? It would ensure tougher sentences for terrorist acts and make it a crime to support, help or harbour terrorists. It would make it easier for police and security agencies to investigate terrorists and their supporters. It would make it a crime to collect funds for terrorism and would make it easier to deny or remove charitable status for organizations that are fronts for terrorism.

It would keep terrorists from getting across our borders and would make it easier to freeze the assets of terrorists. It would establish stronger penalties for hate crimes and would show Canada's solidarity with other countries fighting terrorism by ratifying the UN anti-terrorism conventions.

What would the amendments do? The amendments are in five key areas. First, sunset clauses would be added to the preventive arrest and investigative hearing provisions in addition to the three year parliamentary review of the act so that they expire in five years. Second, the Attorney General of Canada, Solicitor General of Canada, provincial attorneys general and ministers responsible for policing would be required to report annually to the public on the use of the preventive arrest and investigative hearing provisions of Bill C-36.

Third, the word lawful would be deleted from the definition of a terrorist activity. Fourth, an interpretative clause would be added to the bill clarifying that the expression of political, religious or ideological beliefs is not a terrorist activity. Finally, the provisions concerning facilitation of a terrorist activity would be reordered so that they clearly state that in order to be guilty of an offence an individual must know or intend that his or her act would help a terrorist activity to occur. These amendments would go a long way to making the bill a good bill.

I have a very large Muslim community in my riding. I visited the mosques and the people are concerned that there might be reactions against the Muslim community; in other words blaming the many for the actions of a few. I am glad that the bill establishes stronger penalties for hate crimes as this type of activity is not to be tolerated.

I also have a large number of Tamils in my riding. Their organization, FACT, has been attacked by members opposite as being a terrorist front. This organization is a cultural organization and its members are concerned that their organization will be swept up in the definitions of terrorist activities. I have spoken to the solicitor general and I would like to make it a matter of public record that any such move should be strongly supported by facts and not by innuendo that might come from other sources. I am sure our agencies, departments and ministers will make sure that is the case.

I have many Somali Canadian refugees in my riding who transferred money to Somalia. They used the al-Barakaat agency which was a money transfer operation. It was effectively barred and that is unfortunate. Al-Barakaat was seen on the one hand to finance terrorist activities. There were many Somali Canadian refugees in my riding who sent small amounts of money to Somalia. These were amounts that were supporting relatives and friends in Somalia in very remote locations and al-Barakaat was the agency that had the broadest reach and was most credible.

I have addressed this with the ministers to see if there would be a way to have legitimate money transfer operations continue. However, I do understand that it is complex and it is difficult to do that.

With respect to those organizations that could be added to the list of terrorists, I am pleased that the process of adding a group to the list of terrorists incorporates a number of protections, including the provision for removal, judicial review and safeguards to address cases of mistaken identity. As well, the list must be reviewed every two years by the solicitor general.

The question of refugee claimants is a very important issue. In Canada we have a very tolerant and progressive policy. We welcome those people who deserve the protection of Canada. Unfortunately, there has been some abuse.

I am glad to see that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration is receiving $17 million. I think more will be needed and I hope that will be addressed on December 10. A more thorough review will be given of the background of refugee claimants to ensure they do not have terrorist activities in their background and also to make sure of their identity. The fact that a refugee who arrives here in Canada has no documentation by and of itself should not be tremendous cause for concern. Many refugees arrive in Canada with just the shirts on their backs if they are lucky. We need to be careful about broad-brushing those people who arrive without documentation as being automatically suspect. It behooves us all to make a very special check.

I have been arguing for some time that we need to make sure refugee claimants are brought before the Immigration and Refugee Board and tribunals more quickly so that a determination can be made. If there is a concern that they will not appear at their hearing, they should be detained. We have that ability now under the current legislation and the bill reinforces that. That is an important step we are taking.

There is the whole question of border issues. Some popular press says that the Americans are looking to us to tighten up our borders and if we do that, then we can move our goods back and forth more freely. I do not think that is the case at all. I do not think the Americans are looking for this so-called perimeter harmonization, integration and all those buzzwords.

The American ambassador used a term the other day with which I feel more comfortable. He called it a comfort zone. Yes, we need to ensure that we have a comfort zone. In 90% of the cases we may agree with the Americans on what is appropriate policy at the border, but in 10% of the cases we may not. We need to have that flexibility as a sovereign nation to decide for example that we do not welcome handguns in Canada. I could name other situations where we need to exercise our sovereignty.

Having said that, I believe that reasonable people, which I think we are as a government and the Americans are as a government, will agree on 90% of what is needed to make our borders more secure and to allow the free flow of goods. In fact, this parliament approved a bill not too long ago which modernizes the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and allows for the lower risk volume of traffic to move more freely with sanctions if they do not live up to the expectations.

I would like to see U.S. customs adopt pre-clearance and pre-authorization so our goods can start moving in that direction. I was very happy that our Minister of Finance and our Minister of National Revenue reached some compact with the U.S. secretary of commerce to fast track these border issues, to deal with infrastructure, to deal with policy and to ensure that our goods move back and forth, because trade between Canada and the United States is so vitally important to all our citizens.

To wrap up, let me say that the bill with the amendments is a necessary piece of legislation. There are sunset clauses to ensure that some of the more difficult provisions are lapsed. However, we will honour our national conventions when it comes to terrorism. We will make sure that the charter of rights and freedoms, which we value so much as Canadians, is respected. We will move on border issues. We will move on immigration issues. The government, I am sure, will address the terrorist elements that are here in Canada and the movement of funds. Overall we will achieve our objectives with this legislation.

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as far as Bill C-36 is concerned, clearly we want efficient legislation that can adequately meet the needs of an emergency situation, but it must not disturb the delicate balance between people's safety and their rights and freedoms.

We stated unequivocally that any legislation sacrificing freedom would be tantamount to capitulating to terrorism, and that terrorists would get their way.

The choice before us as legislators is obviously a choice about security, but first and foremost, it is a choice about society. We must make decisions which, at the end of the day, are responsible ones, decisions that guarantee the safety of the women, men and children that we represent in this House, but which are also clearly protecting their rights and freedoms.

There are many aspects of this bill that are open to criticism. In order to begin studying the group of motions that are of interest to us, let us say that the bill allows the governor in council to put entities on the list of terrorists without any legal authorization.

What is more, there is no mechanism allowing anyone on the list access to evidence against them, which makes it impossible for them to challenge their inclusion on the list. The consequences of being put on the list are very serious. By virtue of being on the list, anyone unfairly listed would be precluded from renting an apartment, opening a bank account, and so on.

We were also calling for a three year sunset clause to apply to every clause of the bill. This legislation is in response to a situation that can only be described as exceptional, and we accept that. We must act responsibly, and the government must resort to certain powers that will not be required after a certain amount of time.

The minister agreed to include a clause which, in our opinion, is not a sunset clause, since it only applies to two provisions: preventive arrest and investigative hearings, and this for a five year period.

As for the legislative review, we proposed an annual review by an independent commissioner who would report to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, which could then make recommendations to the House. This bill is an exceptional bill in response to an emergency situation, hence the importance of setting up a review mechanism that is thorough and appropriate.

Unfortunately, the minister preferred instead to have the ministers responsible for implementing the act report only on the number of preventive arrests and of investigative hearings.

We proposed amendments to limit the definition of terrorist activity. The minister's promised open-mindedness and attentive ear resulted in their rejection. Even with the minister's amendments, it is still possible for people demonstrating during a strike, for example, to fit perfectly into the definition of terrorist activity in the bill, so here is some impact.

In the case of access to information, to ensure greater transparency we wanted the information commissioner to have full authority over the application of the Access to Information Act. However, the attorney general will be able to remove information without any safeguard provided, something the information commissioner roundly criticized.

What about the complaint of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, who called for a sunset clause too? What happened to the opinion of a number of important witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, who warned the minister against an abuse of power and a lack of transparency in the application of the law?

What about the testimony of the president of the Quebec bar association, the president of the Canadian Auto Workers Union, the Canadian information commissioner, the privacy commissioner and the Canadian Bar Association?

Warnings came from his cabinet colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. In the light of what happened in committee, clearly the minister did not heed or hear the testimony of experts during committee deliberations.

I was very much in favour of the bill's consideration in committee, so that we might have a real debate and hear the views of experts like the ones I have just referred to.

To our satisfaction, the amendments proposed by expert witnesses and their criticisms were more or less in line with the Bloc Quebecois position. Then, when the minister introduced her amendments, the total opposite happened. It is clear that the minister is doing as she pleases.

We have shown nothing but good faith from the start of the debate on Bill C-36. We could see, however, that we were dealing with a minister who is doing just as she pleases, not just once, but twice. She has shown that her mind is made up and it has nothing to do with rights and freedoms and transparency. She took us in with her talk of open-mindedness in committee, but then our 66 amendments ended up rejected.

She also did just as she pleased in connection with Bill C-7, when all of Quebec clearly indicated to her that she was on the wrong track. She chose to dismiss out of hand Quebec's expertise, the best there is in connection with young offenders, imposing on Quebec a system that is totally the opposite of the Quebec way of doing things.

Given the way things went in committee, the Bloc Quebecois will be voting against this bill, because it goes far too far and is therefore unacceptable.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Madam Speaker, September 11 revealed that Canada was not prepared and was in fact ill equipped to deal with terrorists operating within our country who had as their objective the destruction of our society and that of our neighbour, the United States.

The federal government had downgraded security at our borders. Immigration officers were woefully ill equipped to ensure that our immigration laws were not misused by those who came to Canada to engage in terrorism. In addition, the refugee determination system was packed with political cronies of the government who were prepared to put narrow political interests ahead of Canadians. Our security service, CSIS, had been downgraded through aggressive cuts to its budget and a general disregard for what it was designed to do. Our armed forces had been systematically run down by this government. The numbers in our military have drastically declined, as have the military budget and equipment, since this government came to office. September 11 exposed the government's failures.

Clearly there is a need to act to protect Canadians. We have a right to feel secure, to feel that we are safe from terrorist threats. September 11 revealed that we are not safe.

In the rush to respond to the public's desire to feel secure at home, the government has brought before parliament legislation that is designed to make the government appear to be protecting Canadians. The emphasis of the government has been on appearances. The result has been poorly thought out legislation designed to make the government appear to be tough on terrorism. Some of the critics of the government and the legislation have tended to focus on the loss of civil liberties. I have a great deal of sympathy for their concerns.

Professor Don Stuart of Queen's University Faculty of Law wrote a paper entitled “The Dangers of Quick Fix Legislation in the Criminal Law: the Anti-Terrorism Bill C-36 should be Withdrawn”. It appeared in a recently published book from the University of Toronto Press which addresses these issues.

Professor Stuart states:

What cannot be supported are the complex new criminal laws in Bill C-36. When the State turns to its power to punish and imprison the standard of justification should be high. Basic principles of a criminal justice system that deserves the name require the State to prove both that the individual acted and was at fault, that responsibility is fairly labelled and that any punishment is proportionate to the accused's actions. In my view the creation of the crimes in Bill C-36...cut across these principles and should be withdrawn. The new State power grab is unnecessary, will not make Canadians safer--

I do not think the government has adequately responded to the criticism of people such as Professor Stuart.

While parliament must give expression to and effectively articulate such concerns, we must make it clear that our normal criminal laws were essentially designed to deal with those who are attempting to better themselves through criminal acts as opposed to those who are bent on destroying our society. If we need extraordinary measures to deal with those who are bent on destroying our society, then parliament must be presented with clearly defined measures to deal with these special threats. I have trouble believing that Bill C-36 will address the real problems that have undermined Canadian security.

The government has proposed Bill C-36 as a way of convincing Canadians that their security interests are being protected and that the government is taking action to ensure that terrorists cannot operate in Canada to advance their causes. The reality is that Bill C-36 may do little to protect us from terrorism and yet may unnecessarily infringe our historic rights as citizens in a free and democratic society, rights that have been in development since the Magna Carta.

I find the comments of Linda Williamson in the Toronto Sun on November 22 helpful. She stated:

—we now have experts warning that the anti-terrorism bill, in practice, won't really make much difference—it's legally cumbersome and inefficient. That's the discussion we should be having, given this government's weakness for awkward, ineffective and largely symbolic legislation—

She goes on to state:

While everyone's been indulging in esoteric, academic argument over whether this law might conceivably do harm, we should be asking whether it will do any good. Will it actually help police and our courts stop terrorists and severely punish them? Or is it just another PR exercise, designed to make the government look like it's doing something (and a clumsy one at that)?

I believe that the sunset provisions are inadequate. There are no effective measures for parliamentary oversight. The three year parliamentary review provisions in the bill do not require an actual vote.

The fisheries committee has just completed such a parliamentary review of the Oceans Act. From my experience with the review of the Oceans Act, I can advise that such a review provision has little value and is dangerous if it is considered to be a substitute for real parliamentary oversight.

I have little confidence that this government will act appropriately in applying these laws.

We know that the government has sought to limit the power of parliamentary commissioners such as the auditor general and the information commissioner. I remain concerned that the government will use Bill C-36 to protect itself from the scrutiny of these officers of parliament. Such actions will not advance the security needs of Canadians. Instead they will advance the political security needs of the government rather than the people.

Professor Stuart of Queen's University expresses the concern that the government will apply political expediency in its application of Bill C-36. He states:

Expect Canada to embrace George Bush's most wanted list which excludes well established groups...not because they don't fit violent terrorist criteria but for reasons of political comity and expediency.

Fishermen on the west coast have protested the government's undermining of the public right to fish. As a fisherman and as a member of parliament I have joined fisherman in these protests designed to protect their historic right to fish. Would I and other fishermen fall under the net covered by Bill C-36? A government that would flout the constitutional and common law right of fishing could not be trusted to protect their right to freely protest the government's actions.

It was a desire for political expediency and for vote getting that caused the government to refuse to deal with the surges in illegal immigration and the swamping of our refugee determination system.

Australia has addressed these real threats to its security and immigration laws while Canada has brought forward Bill C-36, which fails to address the security issues in the failed administration of our immigration laws. Diane Francis, in the National Post , recently summarized the problem. She stated:

—In early October, Australia got its act together regarding bogus refugees. Like Canada, it has been flooded in the past and has finally gotten wise. Philip Ruddock, Australia's Minister of Immigration, announced: Anyone arriving from a safe country by illegal means will be returned. Anyone arriving without documentation will be rejected. A refugee who leaves the country cannot return. A refugee cannot bring dependants along. Those convicted of smuggling people will be given severe prison sentences.

Philip Ruddock stated:

By assisting us in our fight to repel the activities of people smugglers, these new laws will enable us to help those who are most in need of help—those people languishing in refugee camps around the world...In recent times the number of people entering Australia illegally meant we had no choice but to divert humanitarian program places away from our offshore program, which helps people identified as being in need of resettlement by the UN.

Canada has long, sparsely inhabited coastlines on the west, the north and the east coasts. Last week at its hearings in British Columbia the fisheries committee learned firsthand how much of B.C. is unmonitored. While Canada has the ability to use radar to monitor vessels coming into Canadian waters, the ability exists only on the lower half of Vancouver Island. The bulk of the west coast is open to all illegal arrivals, whether bent on mere economic gain for themselves or on terrorism.

In Ontario and Quebec there has been an illegal flow of people and goods at Indian reserves that straddle or abut the Canada-U.S. border. The government has refused to take effective measures. I doubt that Bill C-36 is needed to address this problem and I doubt that it is likely to help address this problem. The problem up to now has been a lack of political will, not merely a lack of effective statute law. Bill C-36 is not a substitute for political will.

The failure of the government to respond to terrorism in the air by putting air marshals on passenger aircraft is but an example of the government's refusal to take concrete measures to protect Canadian citizens.

I find Bill C-36 troubling and in the final analysis I would be uncomfortable supporting it. I am concerned that the government may well use the new power provided in Bill C-36 to stamp out legitimate dissent while at the same time ignoring the real threats to Canadian society posed by our porous borders.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, in my riding in Yukon there is a wide diversity of opinions on this bill and certainly there is across the country. That is not unexpected on a bill that is so important to us all. It is not necessarily bad because hopefully the dialectic debate among those opinions will help us come up with the best bill possible.

Certainly some of my constituents share the fear experienced since September 11 and would like to feel more secure, but they also agree that in providing this protection every effort should be made to maintain the type of society and personal freedoms and human rights that we enjoy today. I have talked to people in Dawson City, I have received e-mails on concerns and I have talked to at least one constituent who does not feel the bill is necessary at all.

It is for these reasons and concerns that I am very appreciative that lawyers reviewed the bill with regard to its relationship to human rights before releasing it. It is also why I was very encouraged to hear that the all party justice committee recently met until 3 o'clock in the morning to make a number of amendments related to these major concerns with the bill before completing its work.

Today I want to talk about one of those technical amendments in regard to the review mechanism for the attorney general's certificates. There is a basic, major reason for this section of the bill. If foreign countries have information on terrorism that can help prevent an act in Canada but cannot release it to us without protection and certification that we are protected, they may not be able to give it to us. This would allow them to give information that may protect Canadians from injury and we could provide protection for that information.

A great deal has been said about these attorney general's certificates. In response to comments received from witnesses a number of changes were made in committee, on government motions, concerning these certificates. Following is a list of some of these changes.

The first change is that the certificate can no longer be issued at any time but only after an order or decision for disclosure, for example, by a federal court judge in a proceeding.

The second change, and a major one, is that the life of the certificate is limited to 15 years unless the certificate is reissued.

The third change is that the certificate would be published in the Canada Gazette .

The fourth change is that the certificate would be subject to a review by a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal.

Finally, the existing provisions and process for the collection, use and protection of information are preserved under the Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act.

Bill C-36 would allow the attorney general to issue a certificate in connection with a proceeding under the Canada Evidence Act to prohibit the disclosure of information for the purpose of protecting national defence, national security and information obtained in confidence from or in relation to a foreign country.

The attorney general's certificate process is intended to apply in exceptional cases only as the ultimate guarantee that ensures the protection of very sensitive information by the Government of Canada. The protection of this information is of particular concern in relation to information obtained from our allies.

When information is given on the condition that it not be released to a third party without the consent of the originating country, and where the consent is not given for such release, we must be in a position to meet our obligation. The attorney general's certificate provides the means to do so. It provides an insurance and an absolute guarantee that this information will be protected. The certificate could only be issued personally by the Attorney General of Canada and only where very sensitive information is threatened by disclosure in individual proceedings. It does not exempt entire departments or all information from the Privacy Act or the Access to Information Act.

Where a certificate has been issued it would also prevent the disclosure of the same information contained in a record under the Access to Information Act or the same personal information of a specific individual under the Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. It would be pointless to protect information from being disclosed in proceedings when the same information could be disclosed under the Access to Information Act. The certificate would also suspend only the right of access under the Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, but the existing provisions and process for the collection, use and protection of personal information would be preserved under these acts.

The amendments made in the committee restrict the timing of issuance of a certificate. Initially the wording of the bill allowed for the attorney general's certificate to be issued at any time. The bill now has been amended to stipulate that the certificate could only be issued after an order or a decision for disclosure of that information has been made in a proceeding.

Some concerns have also been expressed that in the absence of a review mechanism and a specific limit on certificates, the power to prevent disclosure could be used too broadly. The government has listened closely to Canadians on this issue. The certificate process was amended so that a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal would be given an independent review role to ensure that the limited scope of information for which the certificates may be issued under the legislation is respected. Further, the certificate is now limited in time. It expires after 15 years but could be reissued by the attorney general. Finally, each certificate would be published in the Canada Gazette .

These provisions allow the government to continue to continue to protect highly sensitive information. This stability is essential in order for Canada to play a meaningful role with its international partners in confronting terrorism, both at home and abroad.

To conclude, I cannot help but think of the people in the World Trade towers a few minutes before the planes hit, the secretaries and other workers who were mothers and fathers, and more important, of their children who were at daycare, in school or at home. I cannot help but think that every day innocent Canadians, innocent parents, also go to their workplaces. Hopefully we can do anything in our power so that these parents who are in the workplace every day in Canada will return home that evening and not be prevented from doing so by some ruthless terrorist attack.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate although I too want to register my objection to the fact that on such an important issue we are having to debate this under very significant time constraints. I do not think it augurs well for this relatively new parliament that we are heading in this direction on something as important as Bill C-36.

The announcements on the changes by the federal justice minister last week overall were disappointing. The minister proposed that two of the most controversial powers in the bill, namely investigative hearings and preventive arrests, would lapse unless specifically renewed by parliament every five years. That could probably be summed up by “a sunset clause if necessary, but not necessarily a sunset clause”.

The minister also offered to tighten the definition of terrorist act in Bill C-36 to ensure that it could not encompass activities such as illegal strikes. Although it did not go as far as I would have liked, they were certainly headed in the right direction in terms of the changes that the minister indicated she was prepared to make.

I submit that people who are concerned about freedom of speech, preventive arrests and human rights have every reason to be apprehensive that the powers in this bill have not modified or changed and are therefore very much at risk.

For example, a couple of weeks ago in Ottawa, even though Bill C-36 is obviously not yet law, civil libertarians were highly critical of the way in which the Ontario police broke up a peaceful march in the nation's capital by wading into the crowd, singling out people who were dressed in black and detaining 41 of them, only five of whom were subsequently charged. That in itself was very unfortunate, although it is amusing to see the signs festooned on lampposts around Ottawa in the aftermath of that incident suggesting that people should wear black because the Ontario police think it is an arresting colour.

People of the Canadian Arab and Muslim community are particularly disappointed by the failure of the government to modify the preventive arrest component because they believe their people and communities will be targeted, as the previous speaker and others before him have indicated.

I will take a minute to congratulate the editors and the writers of a book that was published in very quick order. The University of Toronto press produced and published a book entitled Security of Freedom: Essays on Canada's Anti-Terrorism Bill . The book was largely written by 25 Canadian experts in law, criminology and political science. I believe the member for Mount Royal, if I have that correct, was one of those essayists. It is a very impressive feat when one stops to consider that the anti-terrorism bill was only brought in on the October 15 and a 500 page book was produced in time for all MPs to be provided a copy before the Minister of Justice came back to the committee with proposed amendments last week.

According to the editors of that book, the challenge for lawmakers in this piece of legislation is to design arrangements that equip the nation to deal with terrorist threats without undermining our democratic core and values. Looking at that test, I submit that the changes suggested by the justice minister have failed to meet that high standard. Unfortunately experience in other countries in response to the threats to security has not been encouraging.

One of the essays that I paid particular attention to was written by Janice Stein, whom we sometimes see on national television, especially post-September 11. She noted that countries tend to grossly overstate the risk of terrorism and that they have in the past. She alleges that in such a heightened environment citizens are willing to accord state officials greatly expanded emergency powers.

Unfortunately these become the baseline for even more rights and liberties to move from the citizen to the state. That is one of the key points that we have been trying to make throughout this debate, especially the member for Winnipeg--Transcona, who has taken the lead for our caucus on this.

He did get an editorial in the Vancouver Sun which pointed out that he was correct in noting the pitfalls of legislation which is done quickly. As the editorial said, what may now appeal to Canadians when images of the World Trade Center are fresh may six months from now seem to be inappropriately extreme invasions of privacy.

Without question, we have gone too far in one direction on this legislation. In short, I do not believe it is balanced. It has been alleged that one senior RCMP official said in an unguarded moment that the provisions in Bill C-36 were greater powers than it ever dreamt it would have acquired.

Last month our caucus had the opportunity to meet with leaders of the Arab and Muslim communities. I was particularly impressed with and remember vividly one grandmother who immigrated to this country many years ago. She said she would not dream of living anywhere else and insisted that the first time she saw the snow-capped Rocky Mountains she knew she was in heaven.

However, most disturbing was her comment on Bill C-36, the provisions of which she believes will make Canada no better than the countries that she and other people fled to come to Canada. We are obviously talking about the racial profiling that was raised eloquently by the previous speaker.

In the wake of September 11, people said that giving up their lifestyle and way of life would mean that the terrorists had won. The same can surely be said for our laws. If the state can make a convincing argument that our laws must be circumscribed to deal with a particular crisis, then it should be allowed to proceed with emergency powers, but those powers should not remain one second beyond the point at which the threat has passed.

As others have noted, there have been incidents in the country where civil liberties have been overridden at times of crisis. They pointed out the Ukrainians in the first world war, the Japanese-Canadians in World War II and French-Canadians in the province of Quebec and the War Measures Act of 1970. In all cases the general public loudly applauded these actions at the time. In each and every case the general public decided later that the country made a terrible mistake.

Canadians need to work and stick together to maintain human and civil rights to the greatest extent possible. Otherwise, if we do not, I am reminded of the powerful words at the entrance of the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, which I had the privilege to visit last year. They go like this:

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Communist;

They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;

They came for the labour leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labour leader;

They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;

Then they came for me - And there was no one left to object.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to participate in a very important debate. I cannot begin to express my disappointment and disdain for the government's decision to impose time allocation on this extremely important legislation.

The government's rationale for this vulgar display of power is that the opposition is seeking to discuss the bill in detail. This is the most important piece of legislation to be debated by this parliament in my lifetime and the arrogant, undemocratic Liberal government has decided that it has heard enough.

The Liberals, in particular the Prime Minister, have lauded themselves as champions of the charter of rights and freedoms, yet before us we have a bill that significantly infringes upon the charter rights of Canadians and the debate has been stifled. Shame on the government.

All this talk of protecting our democracy in the face of terror is totally hypocritical. There were no dilatory tactics or filibusters threatened by the opposition. The concerns raised by all the opposition parties were the reasonable concerns raised by Canadians from coast to coast.

The House is politically divided along regional lines. In time of war and in the face of terror it is crucially important to seek consensus on this groundbreaking bill. We all know that consensus is time consuming and it is hard work. It is what democracy is supposed to be about.

Unfortunately, the Prime Minister believes that everything is partisan and to the victor go the spoils. A true leader would have brought Canadians together in a time of crisis. The Prime Minister has proven true to his traditional form by dividing Canadians in order to fulfill his wishes.

Much of the public debate has been focused on threats to democracy. I believe the true threat to Canadian parliamentary democracy is the arrogant, dictatorial reign of the current Prime Minister and the government.

I would like to quote from an editorial entitled, “Terrorism and Freedom” from the November 17 edition of the Economist :

Infringements of civil rights, if genuinely required, should be open to scrutiny, and considered a painful sacrifice, or a purely tactical retreat, not as the mere brushing aside of irritating legal technicalities. Those who criticise such measures should be given a careful hearing, even if their views must sometimes be overridden. After all, one of the chief aims of most terrorists, including Osama bin Laden and his ilk, is to undermine the long-established, hard-won freedoms of liberal societies. In a democracy, one of the chief aims of those in office should be to preserve them.

I call on the Prime Minister and the justice minister to weigh these words carefully, for history may judge harshly their disregard for those whose concerns are being brushed aside here today.

With the very little amount of time granted to me today, I want to focus my remarks on the specific provision in Bill C-36 that grants police the power of preventive arrest and the potentially dangerous impact this provision could have on Canadians if left unchecked.

Preventive arrest grants police the power to arrest and detain people for up to 72 hours based on suspicion alone.

We in the Canadian Alliance understand how these extraordinary powers are necessary in order to prevent catastrophic events like September 11 from ever occurring again. However, I have tremendous apprehensions over the lack of oversight and amount of secrecy regarding these measures.

The Economist article went on to say:

--it is essential that any new police powers be as limited as possible, and that the rival claims of liberty be taken seriously--even in the face of shadowy enemies. Striking this balance is bound to be tricky.

We must get this balance right.

The fact that the government has quashed debate while genuine questions of civil liberties remain unanswered is deplorable.

Canada has progressed over generations to be one of the most tolerant societies in the world. We are enriched by our ethnic and religious diversity. In many parts of the world it would be unspeakable to have a mosque, a temple, a synagogue, and a catholic and aprotestant church in the same region let alone on the same street. The same can be said about a classroom where children of all races and creeds learn in peace. That is the beauty of our country. That is what we are trying to protect by carefully scrutinizing Bill C-36.

I am a Muslim, the targeted group of this particular anti-terrorist legislation and investigation.

It does not matter how the government sugar coats it. All the provisions brought forward in response to September 11 involve racial profiling. There have been numerous incidents in Canada, the U.S. and Britain which have involved racial discrimination and even violence against Arabs, Muslims and Arab looking people.

Let me state clearly that I understand that the al-Qaeda regime was effective because it was able to infiltrate North American society and operate undetected. However, we must not go on a witch hunt, ostracizing recognizable, law-abiding communities within Canada.

We must learn from the mistakes of the past. During World War II, Japanese Canadians were interned to protect Canada from rogue agents. We must ensure that this never happens again. The hostility and societal disdain created by racially profiling Muslim and Arab Canadians as potential terrorists is creating an internment of its own.

Someone arrested under the new powers of preventive arrest is in effect guilty until proven innocent. Not only is it up to the individuals to prove their innocence, once acquitted it is up to the individuals to have their names cleared by petitioning the solicitor general.

What of their names and reputations? Where is the oversight to create the balance needed to protect the rights of Canadians? The justice minister put a sunset clause on this provision; however, it will still exist unchecked for five years.

I am calling on the government to be extremely diligent in using these new powers of preventive arrest for the consequences will have a scarring effect on our society. When a person of Arab or Indo-Canadian appearance is removed from an airplane because they are making other passengers uneasy, it is an abomination of everything for which this country stands. Yes, we must be vigilant to fight terrorism, but the cost must not be to undermine our society, thereby facilitating the very mandate of the terrorists.

These are extraordinary times that require extraordinary measures. In a pluralistic, democratic society, it is imperative that government powers be scrutinized and accountable. Canadians believe that a small loss of liberty is a fair return for greater security. That does not give licence to the government to ride roughshod over the rights of Canadians.

These powers granted by Bill C-36 are sweeping. I truly believe that there are inadequate safeguards to protect the rights of those who may be targeted by this legislation. In seeking a balance between increased power and protection of civil liberties, the government has failed miserably. Let us hope that those charged with executing the powers enacted by this legislation do so responsibly.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to compliment the member for Mount Royal on his eloquent interventions over the last month or so on the bill. They have been greatly appreciated by me and I am sure by many other members of the House as well as the public.

Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, seeks to amend a number of acts. This perhaps is the most important bill to have come before the House in the past 50 years. It is wide ranging and has a profound impact on the rights of Canadians, our sovereignty, access to information, transparency as well as a number of revenue issues. Each and every Canadian should be watching the bill very closely. It is a bill that deserves our outmost attention. The bill deserves to be debated at length and all questions pertaining it asked and answered.

Unfortunately the government took it upon itself to engage in closure. Of all the bills that have come to the House, this bill deserved closure the least because of its profound nature, because of the potential impact the bill could have on all Canadians and because of the need of Canadians from coast to coast to have their questions answered, which has not happened.

My party as well as the other opposition parties and indeed many government members have asked the government to put the brakes on the bill in terms of closure. We should have a longer debate, extend hours if we have to, but make sure the bill is debated thoroughly and that all questions are answered. That has not happened.

We are pleased that the government, although it defeated a supply day motion proposed by our party, did seek to include a number of suggestions in the bill. These include: the naming of all known international terrorist organizations operating in Canada; a complete ban on fundraising activities to support terrorism; the immediate ratification of the convention for the suppression of financing of terrorism; the creation of specific crimes for engaging in terrorist training and activities; and the extradition of foreign nationals charged with acts of terrorism. We can only compliment the government for supporting them.

I would say that the government has been tardy in the introduction of this bill. We knew full well that the country needed a proper anti-terrorism bill years ago. Indeed, we have been asking for one. Why did it take the events of September 11 for the government to suddenly put the gears of this institution in place and move forward on the bill? Why was it not done beforehand when we had more time? We could have extracted information from the best minds in the country to apply to the bill. It could have been a thoughtful bill, not a rushed one, a bill that would have been more effective.

As the member for Mount Royal said very eloquently, the bill lacks the appropriate oversight mechanisms that are essential given the powers that the bill gives to the government.

We have passed stage one in the war on terrorism. Stage one is what took place in Afghanistan. I submit that was the easiest part of the war on terrorism. The more difficult part is what is happening now. It involves how we root out and find those terrorists who have already situated themselves in other parts of the world, individuals who have proven by the events of September 11 that they are willing to kill themselves in an act of aggression against the west. How do we prevent those situations from happening again? How do we drain the swamp so that other individuals will not take that extreme step of wishing to kill themselves in pursuit of those acts which they believe in their hearts are for their cause?

Canada has an extraordinary opportunity to deal with part two, the most difficult aspect of the war on terrorism. Given the interactions, the memberships and the abilities many Canadians have, we as a country can build on the coalition that exists today to prevent a lot of these situations from happening.

We must deal with the issue of propaganda. Whether it is in Rwanda, Burundi, the former Yugoslavia or in Afghanistan, how they get a group of people to believe in these myths, particularly the terrorists, is that they are fed a steady diet of hateful, venal propaganda from the time they are small children until they are adults.

In time some of those individuals will take it upon themselves to engage in these extreme acts of terrorism. What we must do with our partners, and I underline the Muslim states in particular, is address, diffuse and ameliorate the propaganda and tell people the truth. We should not allow individuals to harbour and foment violence between one group and another. We must step in and diffuse it. If we allow this to happen, as we have seen time and again, we will be sowing the seeds of ethnic hatred and discontent, and ultimately bloodshed.

As I said before, we saw it in Yugoslavia in 1974. We saw it in Rwanda and in Afghanistan, and we will see it again in the future unless we prevent it. Our country has an opportunity to work with members of the coalition to do just that. Economically, we must also build bridges between members of the coalition.

A profound thing happened recently with the introduction of Russia as a decision making partner in NATO decisions. It was absolutely crucial to bring that country closer to the fold of the international neighbourhood. It enabled the potential threat of Russia to be diffused. Given its nuclear capabilities, we know the threat, while small, could be profound if it was ever acted upon.

Similar initiatives must take place with respect to Muslim nations. Cleavage patterns are taking place within those countries and I think we now have the opportunity to ask the moderate Muslim states to intervene with other less moderate states, like Iraq, Syria and elements working in the Palestinian controlled territory, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to work with those groups, diffuse those groups and to build bridges between moderates and, if necessary, go after and neutralize those terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

If we allow these cancers to live within our midst, then not only are we a target for terrorist activities but we also poison the ability of the vast majority of individuals who want peace from living peaceful, normal, integrated lives and becoming members of the international community. We should strike while the iron is hot. We have that opportunity now but it will not last. The coalition exists to deal with the situation in Afghanistan. We must build upon it and we must do it now.

We have a great chance to work with the American government. Individuals within congress would like to see a more international approach to foreign affairs but they need to be encouraged. I think our parliament should set up a formal working group with members of the American congress to work on issues of bilateral and multilateral importance. The Americans have a great untapped wealth of potential that is not being used for multilateral purposes. As Canadians and as the closest allies of the Americans, we can, should and must work with the American congress in those areas.

Although phase one of the war against terrorism has been largely accomplished, the more difficult aspect of phase two is before us today. Canada can play a role in dealing with hateful propaganda that is pushed out by some groups by hunting down terrorists with our partners, by integrating international police and foreign services to work against terrorism and to build bilateral and multilateral economic initiatives between countries that have formerly been at odds with each other. It is very difficult to hate the person with whom one is sitting at the table and working on economic initiatives. It is up to us to forge those connections. I am sure we will be successful at doing that in the future.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 16, one day after the introduction of Bill C-36, I rose in the House to identify nine areas of civil libertarian concern. These concerns and related references subsequently found expression in witness testimony before the House of Commons justice and human rights committee, in parliamentary debate and within my own remarks inside and outside the House. Accordingly, I am pleased that six core concerns whose importance may not have been fully appreciated, particularly those that relate to matters of secrecy and disclosure, have found expression in amendments to the original bill which I would like to summarize as follows.

First, and as a matter of particular concern, the definition of a terrorist activity has been circumscribed to ensure that the focus is on the intended terrorist evil rather than the lawfulness or unlawfulness of the act which underpins it. Accordingly, the amendment seeks to ensure that any advocacy protest, dissent or work stoppage activity, even if unlawful, even if attended by violence, even if it causes disruption to an essential service, would not be considered a terrorist activity unless it is undertaken for a political, religious or ideological purpose and it is intended to cause death, serious bodily harm, endangerment of life or serious risk to health or safety and it intends to intimidate the public, or segment thereof, or coerce the government, et cetera to do or refrain from doing something. In a word, unless the violent criminal act committed includes these three requirements of intentionality and motivation, it could not be characterized as a terrorist activity.

Second, mens rea or guilty intention is a requirement for criminal responsibility for a terrorist offence, including the notion of facilitating a terrorist activity.

Third, the power of the attorney general to issue a certificate prohibiting disclosure of sensitive security related information was, prior to an amendment, an unfettered, unreviewable power. Now, after amendment, the certificate cannot be issued at any time but only after an order for disclosure in a legal process. The issuance of the certificate would not remain secret but would be published in the Canada Gazette . The certificate would not be unreviewable but subject to judicial review by a Federal Court of Appeal judge. The access to information and privacy acts would not be excluded but would still apply, as would the oversight by the privacy and information commissioners. The existing provisions for the collection, use and protection of information would be preserved.

Fourth, a non-discrimination provision has been included to ensure that political, religious, or ideological expression could not be converted into any form of terrorist activity so that visible minorities could not be singled out for differential and discriminatory treatment.

Fifth, there would be sunset provisions for two novel investigative and procedural mechanisms, the preventive arrest and judicial investigative hearings. Nor are these provisions themselves without internal safeguards. For example, in the matter of preventive arrests, this power can only be invoked if, and the following considerations have not always been appreciated, there are reasonable grounds to believe that a terrorist activity will be carried out and that imposing conditions or arrest is necessary to prevent the carrying out of the terrorist activity. The terrorist threat must be specific and involve a specific individual. The attorney general must consent to the arrest in all cases.

The detention after arrest must be subject to judicial review within 24 hours. In addition, the consent of the attorney general is required before a judge can be asked to impose supervisory conditions, or the release of a person, or detention for a longer period up to 72 hours.

Sixth would be the sunset clauses. I appreciate what has been mentioned in the House, particularly by members of the opposition, that they fall short of a full demise prior to subsequent parliamentary resolution. But they are only one prong, one aspect of a range of oversight mechanisms which include: the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms; international human rights norms, including in particular principles respecting the right to a fair trial; the annual report to parliament of the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General of Canada and provincial ministers of police; an annual parliamentary oversight by Commons and Senate committees for purposes of public accountability; oversight by information and privacy commissioners; requisite authorization or consent by the Minister of Justice and an enhanced judicial capacity in relation to offences and investigatory mechanisms under the act; mandatory three year parliamentary review of the legislation; and sunset clauses whose demise or continuation will be assessed on the basis of the justice audit of this whole range of oversight mechanisms.

There are other oversight mechanisms which may not be in the bill but are part of the democratic framework of public accountability. I am referring to civilian complaint mechanisms and civilian oversight of police conduct and the sunshine focus of the media. There is also the role of parliamentarians inside and outside the parliamentary process; the role of human rights and non-governmental organizations; the role and representation of the professional bar and legal academe; and the role of visible minorities. There is also the institutionalized consultation, though not mentioned in the bill, between the Department of Justice and representatives of visible minorities to ensure their ongoing involvement and feedback regarding the enforcement and application of the act.

We have been focusing or concentrating on the sunset clauses, which standing alone are admittedly limited in their oversight. But we are losing sight of the whole range of oversight mechanisms, parliamentary and extraparliamentary, that together constitute a far more important sunshine process of democratic accountability.

We should not only be thinking in terms of sunset clauses, but more important, in terms of a sunshine process.

Computer Hackers

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion lost.

I wish to inform the House that because of the deferred recorded divisions government orders will be extended by an additional 49 minutes to which can be added the 30 minutes from this morning, so there will be a total extension of 79 minutes beyond 5.30 p.m.

I wish to clarify the manner in which we will proceed this afternoon for private members' business.

As hon. members are aware, government orders have been extended and the hour provided for private members' business scheduled for 5.30 p.m. has been delayed until 6 p.m. pursuant to Standing Order 67(1), the provisions regarding the debate on the motion for time allocation. We had a further delay because of the deferred divisions.

Later today private members' business may be subject to rescheduling due to the provisions of Standing Order 37. The Speaker is not able to anticipate how many divisions, if any, may take place on Bill C-36 at the end of government orders but I anticipate there might be some.

I want to inform hon. members that private members' hour will take place late tonight unless the recorded divisions at the end of government orders delay it by more than one and one half hours after the beginning of the votes. If members want to make other arrangements they can do so with consent.

Public Safety Act

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-36 has been in front of the House for days. There were 60 hours in committee. Dozens of witnesses appeared in front of the committee. We have come now to pass the bill.

I remember that the same people a few months ago were telling us that we were not going fast enough. Now there is a new flip-flop. The member tells us now that we are going too fast. He should make up his mind.

Anti-Terrorism Legislation

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have just passed a new immigration act. It was studied for weeks on end by the House of Commons, and by House and Senate committees. It was passed and will help us to do something about the problem of bogus refugees.

We have introduced Bill C-36, which will be passed very soon by the House of Commons, and we have another bill before the House.

Naturally, with the problems mentioned, we want to combat terrorism but, at the same time, we must preserve Canadian values.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, imagine any of the leaders of the 50 terrorist organizations that are known to be operating in Canada advising their fugitive agents where to hide. They would look at the tough laws in the United Kingdom, the United States and western Europe, they would read Bill C-36 and they would say “Come to Canada. You can still get in without documents, you can still be a member of your terrorist organization, you will probably never be extradited and you can mass-murder Canadians and still apply for parole”.

Why will the Liberals not finish the job with Bill C-36 and slam the door on terrorists trying to hide in Canada?

Anti-terrorism Act

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments made by the hon. member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore. It strikes me that the New Democratic Party has not listened to Canadians on this issue in the same way it did not listen to Canadians on the issue of our military going to assist in Afghanistan.

The NDP claims to support the military. However it says the reason the military is going there is wrong. That is not supporting the military. It is undermining the confidence of military families and creating anxiety among those families which is uncalled for and inappropriate. It is time the NDP started to recognize that.

I wish to deal with the amendment before us at the moment which would add the following in clause 29:

In no such case shall a person be bound to secrecy for a period exceeding fifteen years, unless otherwise indicated by the deputy head.

Let us examine what the motion is really about. It is important to consider the kinds of secrets that are being considered and whether or not we ought to be allowing secrets of this kind to be opened up after 15 years. The motion would amend clause 29 wich defines a “person permanently bound to secrecy” as:

(a) a current or former member or employee of a department, division, branch or office of the public service of Canada, or any of its parts, set out in the schedule; or

(b) a person who has been personally served with a notice issued under subsection 10(1) in respect of the person or who has been informed, in accordance with regulations made under subsection 11(2), of the issuance of such a notice in respect of the person.

That is all a bit confusing. What makes it clearer is the kind of person it is talking about when it defines special operational information. It talks about a person who has offered or agreed to be:

--a confidential source of information, intelligence or assistance to the Government of Canada.

That person might be inside or outside Canada. We cannot be confident or absolutely sure that the person would not be in danger 15 years hence if the information were disclosed that the person had been a source of information. It is not a reasonable assumption to make. The next one is secrecy in relation to:

(b) the nature or content of plans of the Government of Canada for military operations in respect of a potential, imminent or present armed conflict.

This is suggesting that it is not necessary to keep those things secret for more than 15 years. These are important kinds of matters. A terrorist could look at information of this sort that was used by the military in doing its planning and look at the intelligence it gathered to determine where that information came from.

It is not always only the person's name that is the key. Sometimes it is the fact that the military or the government has certain information and when that becomes apparent suddenly the person who gave it to the government is apparent to terrorists. It is a matter of great importance that the information be maintained and kept secret. The third part is:

(c) the means that the Government of Canada used, uses or intends to use, or is capable of using, to covertly collect or obtain, or to decipher, assess, analyze, process, handle, report, communicate or otherwise deal with information or intelligence, including any vulnerabilities or limitations of those means.

This is the kind of information that can make individuals vulnerable. The last thing the government wants is to place people in danger who have given information that is important to our security. That is what this clause would do.

We heard a lot today from the opposition parties about the time allocation motion and their anxiety and frustration with the so-called undue haste of the government. It strikes me as a bit hypocritical to hear this from opposition members because what we heard from them for weeks after September 11 was why the government had not moved more quickly. There was great anxiety and there were constant demands in the House for the government to move swiftly. For example, I refer members of the House to the Debates of October 16 when the hon. member for Provencher said:

The government has taken some important steps. Although we will be considering the provisions of the bill very carefully, it is imperative that the legislation move forward as quickly as possible. I therefore thank members of the House for the increase in the number of hours for debate to raise concerns and move the matter along.

A few weeks ago opposition members were talking about how important it was to stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies. Now they are telling us to slow down and not be in such a hurry. One minute they are telling us to go fast and the next to slow down. They ought to get their act together, get their messages clear and stop flip-flopping about what their view is on this matter.

Let us talk some more about how much debate there has been. Bill C-36 was introduced and read a first time on October 15, 2001. Second reading with extended hours took place on October 16, October 17 and October 18. In addition there were numerous opposition day debates on the same topic.

We had continuous demands from the opposition for the government to act after the events of September 11. We had debate about what the government response could be. We had all kinds of opportunities to express our views on how the government could respond to those events and what measures could come forward in relation to terrorist activities.

The government brought forward measures. We had those debates at second reading. They were referred to the House justice committee on October 18. That committee held hearings on October 18, October 23, October 24, October 25, October 30 and even on Halloween, October 31. It held hearings on November 1, November 5, November 6, November 7, November 8 and November 20.

The Senate was studying the bill as well. The special committee held pre-study hearings on October 22, October 23, October 24 and October 29.

We have heard from Canadians and from our colleagues in all parties. We are now moving forward as Canadians demanded and as members of the opposition demanded over and over in the House earlier this fall.

The real question is how should the government respond to the events of September 11? Do we go on as if nothing ever happened or changed? We heard a lot of comments around that time that the world suddenly became more dangerous on September 11. It is important for us to recognize that is not accurate because it did not become more dangerous that day.

We became aware of how dangerous the world was and what things could be done. We became aware of the terrorists who were in our midst and what impact they could have if we did not have measures to deal with terrorism, if we were not alert.

In spite of our best efforts we must admit that there may be times when things will happen, terrorist attacks may occur that we have not been able to foresee or prevent. I recommend to all colleagues that these amendments be rejected.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the bill. It is unfortunate we are debating it under pressure and with the dark cloud of closure hanging over us.

Many of us never thought we would have to deal with this issue during this parliament or even during our lifetime, however, it is here and we have to deal with it and give it the best shot we can. Not being able to debate it fully and at length in this place in front of the Canadian public is wrong. To hurry it through and limit the amount of time each and every one of us has to speak to the bill is something which I hope Canadians will remember as being common practice for the government and when the time comes for reckoning, it will still be on their minds.

We do not take the bill lightly. A number of people came out to a recent town hall meeting in my riding of Lethbridge. This legislation was the topic of debate and of utmost concern in their minds. They want this terrorism legislation to be strong, fair and balanced but in the end, it must make Canadians not only feel safe and secure, but make them safe and secure here in Canada so they can go about their lives in a fashion that is appreciated and cherished in a free democracy.

The aftermath of September 11 has reached into every aspect of our lives. As parliamentarians we travel a lot and are certainly aware of that by the things we have to go through now to get on and off a plane or any means of public transportation. This is going to become a reality in our lives. I personally do not mind people going through my bags as long as they go through everyone's bags so that when we do get on a plane, we feel safe and secure.

This issue is the number one concern among Canadians. Many people have concerns with the legislation. Some want to soften it and some want to make it harder. It is important to find the proper balance to make it right. Every opportunity should be given to people to put forward their ideas on what should be done to the bill.

There is the issue of the definition of terrorism. On TV we saw somebody breaking a window at a McDonalds here in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago. Is that terrorism? Is somebody who is demonstrating and carrying a placard letting his or her views be known terrorism? The definition is something that has caused great concern and needs to be looked at.

What is the critical balance we must find? There are opposing views on almost every piece of legislation dealt with in the House. We are always trying to reach the middle. We in the opposition have different views than the government but it is the mix and balance we are looking for. We sometimes have trouble getting our point across. We put forward amendments that we would like to see put into legislation but sometimes they are not. Usually we can come to some kind of agreement. There is a lot in the bill that we support but there is also a lot that we do not support and that is why we have to bring our views forward.

Today I am bringing forward some of the views of my constituents that I heard at the town hall meeting. I have written them down and I have let the ministers responsible know how our people feel. Some of those concerns have been addressed. Having our constituents' voices heard through us, their elected representatives, is what democracy is all about. That is why I am here and why I choose to represent the people of my riding, as did all of our members. Having our voices stifled by closure is not the way to do things.

Most Canadians put their trust in what the government is doing and what we are doing as parliamentarians. They do not pay a lot of attention to what is going on here on a daily basis because they feel that we must be doing the right thing.

Some of the people who pay more attention to what goes on in this place on a day to day basis are really concerned that some of the trust they put in us and the government is being compromised, or that we cannot fully voice our opinion and debate the issues at hand.

Something which we feel is needed in the legislation is a review mechanism. That is one of the items in the Canadian Alliance platform. All policies, programs and legislation need to be reviewed on a regular basis to make sure they are appropriate for what they were initially intended to do. To make sure that the legislation is current, it should be brought up on a regular rotating basis for review.

The amendment we put forward would require the attorney general and solicitor general to look at what this legislation does. How it applies in one year or down the road in two to four years is important. We have to make sure that it gets reviewed on a regular basis.

Also, the investigations that occur under the power of the bill are of concern to many people. To be able to go back after a period of time and look at it to make sure the investigative powers are not being abused is important for Canadians.

We have also called for an independent review of the ministerial certificates issued to prohibit disclosure of information. The amendment mandated that the certificates be reviewed by a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal. That is very important. That aspect of it has laid to rest some of the concerns I have heard about the legislation.

With regard to the protection for certain religious and political groups, in the aftermath of September 11 we saw some instances where an entire group of people was singled out. We cannot have that. The acts on September 11 were perpetrated by terrorists; they were not done by any large group of people. They were criminals and they have to be treated in that way. The people of like beliefs around the world are not part of that group. We have to make sure that certain religious groups and political groups have protection under the legislation. We are glad to see that was addressed.

One of the things we wanted to see in the bill was not put in the bill. It is one of the deficiencies of Bill C-36 and something we will continue to fight for as we go through the albeit somewhat shortened process. We will still put forward our ideas. It is the whole idea that the bill fails to eliminate the possibility of parole for people who perpetrate terrorist acts.

In looking at what happened in the United States, there was mass murder on a unknown scale and it happened in a lightning flash. We need to treat terrorists in a very special way. They should not be eligible for parole after 25 years. Consecutive sentences and keeping people who have the potential for that kind of destruction away from the general population need to be addressed.

The bill does not make it illegal to be a member of a recognized terrorist organization, one that has met the burden of proof set out in the bill to be included in the list of entities. While the minister assures us that it is the activity that is of consequence, we feel that joining a terrorist organization has only one purpose and that is to participate in and facilitate terrorist acts.

We have seen cases in Canada where organizations exist to help raise funds to sponsor terrorist organizations. I for one support the notion that President Bush has put forward in the United States, that if a person is involved actively in terrorist activities, if someone houses, feeds, or raises funds for terrorists or allows them to be involved in someone's area in any way, that puts the person into the same category as the terrorist who blows up buildings.

It is important that we address all of those issues. There are some things in the bill that we appreciate and some that still need to be worked on. We will continue to force that issue here in the House of Commons.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since we had to vote on the gag order imposed upon us today, I would like to begin by telling you, speaking for myself, my party, and I believe the members of the opposition parties, that I am totally outraged.

Once again, for the 72nd or 73rd time—we are no longer sure of numbers—the Liberals are imposing a gag on us, after a history prior to 1993 of objecting to this approach, calling it the most undemocratic of parliamentary procedures for preventing the members of this parliament from expressing their views on various bills.

At the time, they accused the Conservatives in power of making abusive use of this parliamentary procedure. Yet they have now succeeded—maybe trying to get into the Guinness Book of Records —in beating the Conservatives' score by 100%, that is having twice as many gag orders.

I believe it is very important to remind all those who are listening to us or who will one day read the Debates of the House of Commons or those who are students of the “great democratic tendencies of the Liberal government”. They will be able to see how the government has gagged parliamentarians. Today, after a mere three hours of debate, if I am not mistaken, we are now being gagged and deprived of our right to express ourselves on this bill.

Perhaps the MPs could go before the supreme court and argue that this is contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms, restricting their freedom of expression. Who knows? But I am just joking about that, because it is one of the government's prerogatives to do so.

Motion No. 6 proposes, after line 14, to change permanently to 15 years in connection with secrecy and national security.

This amendment deserves our attention and deserves to be discussed, yet we have seen how the Liberals have dealt with amendments. The Bloc Quebecois proposed a number of amendments. Witnesses appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and suggested several ways to amend the bill constructively. Yet, each time the government, which had said that it wanted to hear from opposition members and witnesses to improve the legislation, turned a deaf ear to the constructive criticism and recommendations that were made to improve the legislation. According to many editorialists and specialists in the field, the bill fails to meet the objectives it was designed to fulfill, that is, ensuring greater security and fighting terrorism while preserving the importance of the freedom and safety of Canadians and Quebecers.

This bill could have been improved thanks to the proposals made to the government. Many people believe that this type of bill is completely new,and that prior to September 11 no one had examined the issue of international terrorism, but this is wrong.

Several international conventions have been signed and ratified by the Canadian government. The government has signed 12 of the United Nations conventions and protocols on terrorism, and has ratified 10. Two still await ratification, but I will discuss them later.

Thanks to the anti-terrorism measures proposed, Canada could ratify the two final counter-terrorist conventions. Under the proposed bill, Canada could ratify the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, a convention that would freeze the assets of terrorists by preventing the use of assets belonging to a person who is involved in terrorist activity and by preventing assets and financial and related services from being made available to terrorists.

These measures enable a federal court judge to order the freezing and seizure of property used to support terrorist activities. We heard the Minister of Finance boast about having had a good idea—it happens, but not as often as he would have us believe—to fight money laundering and terrorist financing. All he had to do was sign the UN international convention and Canada would have had a convention to monitor and fight terrorist financing.

Another convention that could be ratified by Canada at the United Nations is the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings, which contains provisions on the targeting of places of public use, government facilities, infrastructures and transportation systems for attacks using explosives or other lethal devices, including chemical or biological agents.

Canada could also ratify the convention on the safety of United Nations and associated personnel, which seeks to ensure the safety of United Nations personnel.

I just mentioned two conventions that Canada signed but has yet to ratify. I will spare hon. members and not mention the other ten conventions against terrorism that Canada signed.

This bill must be based not only on the views of opposition members, but also on those of government members who, in committee, through the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, supported by the Secretary of State for the Status of Women, expressed their support for a true sunset clause.

These government and opposition members, as well as the experts who testified before the committee, tried to guide the government toward a more effective Bill C-36. Moreover, the public servants who drafted this legislation must or ought to have taken into consideration the various international conventions ratified or signed by Canada to deal specifically with counter-espionage.

This bill will amend a number of acts in Canada. Indeed, we are not dealing merely with Bill C-36. My colleagues, the hon. members for Berthier—Montcalm, Châteauguay and Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert clearly demonstrated that Canadian legislation as a whole will be affected by this bill.

The criminal code will be amended so as to include provisions for dismantling the activities of terrorist groups and incapacitating these groups and their supporters. The definition in the criminal code of terrorist activity as “an act that is committed in or outside Canada” makes it an offence under one of the ten UN conventions or protocols against terrorism.

What we see is that the government wants to implement a law in Canada which contravenes a convention signed or ratified by Canada with other countries. We must therefore be very careful.

Another of the laws which may or will be amended by the passage of Bill C-36 is the Official Secrets Act. It would be amended to cover national security concerns, including threats of espionage by foreign powers and terrorist groups, and coercive activities against communities in Canada.

Other laws will be affected by the implementation of Bill C-36. The Canada Evidence Act would be amended to include changes in court and other proceedings for the purpose of ensuring the protection of sensitive information, if need be.

The National Defence Act would also be amended to clarify the mandate of the Communications Security Establishment so that it could intercept communications directed at foreign entities and do security checks of the government's computer networks. The permission of the Minister of National Defence would be required to intercept any private communication.

I have tried to show that this is a piece of legislation which will have an impact on other legislation and many other international conventions.

The criminal code would also be amended so that any person with information relating to an ongoing investigation into a terrorist crime could be compelled to appear before a judge for the purpose of disclosing that information.

Other legislation could be amended, including the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act. This act could be amended in order to give powers to the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada. I have listed a few of the acts as well as some of the international conventions.

In conclusion, I wish to tell this government that while there is indeed a serious situation following the events of September 11, and while this situation calls for emergency measures, there is also an obligation to consult, to listen, as the minister said, and also to be willing to understand. Listening is one thing, but there must be a willingness to understand.

I believe that by voting in favour of the bill at second reading, we have shown very clearly that we wish to support it, but we are not going to support it at subsequent stages unless it is actually improved.