Bill C-36 (Historical)

Anti-terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism

Terrorism

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, our fears about the danger of agreeing to overly vague and sweeping definitions in Bill C-36 were confirmed. One of the minister's cabinet colleagues compared the demonstrators at the Quebec City summit to terrorists.

With an example like that, does the minister not realize that all manner of abuses are possible and that she should tighten up the definitions in her bill?

Anti-Terrorism Act

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-36. These are particularly dangerous and fragile times not only for us as Canadians but internationally as well. We are witnessing a United States led bombing campaign in Afghanistan which, in my view and the view of my colleagues, is in breach of international law. The response to the September 11 terrorist attacks should be under the framework of the United Nations.

These are also very dangerous and difficult times on the domestic front. Thomas Berger wrote an eloquent book on the fundamental rights and freedoms of Canadians. He called it Fragile Freedoms and indeed the freedoms that Canadians have are fragile, particularly those set out in the charter of rights and freedoms.

It is precisely at times such as these that those freedoms are potentially under the greatest assault. We recall during World War I the internment of Canadians of Ukrainian origin, and in World War II the internment of Canadians of Japanese origin and the confiscation of their property.

Of course in 1970, the War Measures Act was invoked and 400 Quebecers were arrested without any evidence, incarcerated for several weeks and then released.

I am very proud of the fact that at the time the NDP was the only party to say “No, this is not acceptable; this is an abuse of power”.

Before we invoke the kinds of sweeping new powers contained in Bill C-36, it is critically important that the government demonstrate to Canadians that the existing powers in legislation accorded to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, to CSIS, to the Communications Security Establishment and to the Canadian armed forces are inadequate to respond to the terrorist threat. If we are not in a position to ensure that is indeed the case and if we are extending sweeping new powers, they risk violating the most fundamental rights and freedoms set out in the charter of rights. I believe that in a preliminary review of this legislation there are a number of provisions of the legislation that risk violating the charter of rights and freedoms.

I have a particular personal interest in that charter having been a member of the constitution committee that drafted the charter of rights back in 1980-81. I believe I am the only sitting member of the House who was in fact a member of the committee that wrote the charter of rights and freedoms. I recall the minister of justice at the time was the member for Shawinigan, today's Prime Minister. We wrote that charter for a very specific reason. It was to ensure, particularly at times of widespread popular sentiment that might risk assaults on fundamental rights and freedoms, that the judiciary would be in a position to say “No, you are going too far”. I believe that we risk going too far in this legislation.

Certainly the internment of Canadians of Japanese origin was popular. The proclamation of the War Measures Act was very popular. However they were both profoundly wrong. When I read for example the definition of terrorist activity in this legislation none of us have any concerns about the incorporation of the various United Nations conventions. My colleague the member for Winnipeg--Transcona, the New Democratic Party justice critic, spoke earlier on this legislation. He pointed out that there was no issue with respect to that or indeed a number of other provisions of this legislation that we would be prepared to support.

However the definition of terrorist activity I believe goes too far. It refers to political, religious or ideological purposes. It talks about causing serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of lawful advocacy. Consider for a moment the possible risks of this and what this could be applied to. There are many examples of this, some historic, some current.

The African National Congress in its fight against the brutal and racist apartheid regime in South Africa would clearly have been caught by this legislation, as would any Canadian who supported the African National Congress in its fight against apartheid. I see the member for Edmonton--Strathcona. I know he was a long time opponent of apartheid. He probably even sent a dollar or two to assist in the struggle against it. Had this legislation been in effect, he, as well as I and others, would have risked imprisonment for that. I do not want to see us bringing in legislation that would imprison people who are supporting those who are fighting tyrannical, brutal, repressive regimes.

I recall the freedom fighters in East Timor fighting against the genocidal Indonesian regime. I remember the Sandinistas fighting against Somoza in Nicaragua. I remember the FMLN in El Salvador. Those are some of the historic examples. As Alan Borovoy of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association said, “It is one thing to say we won't countenance people assisting dictators against democrats, but why shouldn't Canadians be free to assist democrats against dictators?” This bill would appear to criminalize that activity.

Today we know that there are people around the world who are engaged in struggles. Whether Canadians agree or disagree with them, do we want to define as terrorists those who support self-determination for the Tamils, for the Chechens, for the Kurds or the Kashmiris? I think here particularly of the Kurds who have been tortured, villages that have been destroyed by the repressive Turkish regime, and member of parliament Leyla Zana who has been imprisoned. For those of us who wish to support them in their struggle against that repressive regime, would we be subject to this legislation?

Here in Canada would environmentalists or labour activists who were engaged in protests be subject to the sweeping powers under this bill?

My colleague from Winnipeg--Transcona has pointed out as well the provisions on preventive detention and investigative questioning, the sweeping new wiretapping provisions, the new unprecedented powers to the Communications Security Establishment, the powers for ministers to override the freedom of information legislation by executive fiat.

I will say in closing that I would support sending the subject matter of the bill to committee, and sending it to committee urgently, but I cannot support the bill in its present form. I believe that the powers that are in the bill constitute potentially a very grave abuse of civil liberties.

There must be a sunset clause as well, not simply a review after three years but a sunset clause, to ensure that the many draconian provisions of the bill in fact are not extended beyond a one year period.

I voice my deep concern about the legislation and in closing point out the words of Clayton Ruby who has reminded Canadians that once these extraordinary powers are brought in, they are not rolled back. As Fred Kaufman, a former judge of the Quebec Court of Appeal, who was appointed by Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau to prosecute people after the 1970 FLQ crisis, said, “One has to be careful because emergency legislation drafted in haste stays on the statute book”.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-36. It is an important bill which will be going before the justice committee. Canadians will be comforted to know that it is a very important bill and that it will undergo rigorous scrutiny by the House, both at second reading and in committee. Representatives from all parties will have an opportunity to address witnesses, including the minister, departmental staff and anybody else they feel has relevant information, because the bill is an omnibus bill and touches a number of important aspects related to terrorism.

Many members have already put on the record a number of the provisions of the anti-terrorism bill. I will leave it at that. There were a couple of aspects though that I did want to deal with. It is important that the definition of terrorism or terrorist activity is understood in the context in which the bill deals with it.

Terrorist activity is defined as an offence under one of the 10 UN anti-terrorism conventions or protocols as defined in another jurisdiction or where for political, religious or ideological purposes one threatens the public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing substantial property damage that is likely to seriously harm people, or by interfering with or disrupting an essential service, facility or system.

It is very important that we are focusing on and dealing with terrorism. The definition is crafted to make it clear that disrupting an essential service is not a terrorist activity. There has been some concern about whether or not this application would be too broad. It is not a terrorist activity if it occurs during a lawful protest at a work site or is not intended to cause serious harm to persons. There is within the definition this clear focus on truly defined terrorist activities.

The bill was introduced yesterday. Constitutional experts will be looking at charter issues and criminal lawyers will be looking at a number of the subtleties.

Two issues have come up that I thought would be of interest to dwell on. One is called the preventive arrest, which Canadians should know about. We are talking about individual rights and freedoms and the extent to which these things would be appropriate, given the circumstances of September 11 and the challenge that free and democratic countries face now.

Preventive arrest is a process whereby something similar to a grand jury would allow people, where there was a suspected or alleged risk of terrorist activity, to be taken into custody. During this process they would be subject to the rules of perjury. In other words, if they lied or it was shown that they had lied in their responses, they could be subject to the laws relating to perjury. They would not be able not to answer questions in that hearing. If they did not answer, like in any other judicial proceeding they would be held in contempt according to contempt laws.

Interestingly enough in this process nothing that they would say could be used against them in the event that they were ultimately charged. It is a separate process. It is a new instrument that I wanted Canadians to be aware of.

As a result of a preventive arrest, the outcome could be that the people would simply be released because the judge was satisfied. They could also be charged as a result of the information developed by the investigation. They could even be released with certain conditions, similar to a peace bond situation. This is mutual and Canadians would want to inform themselves and watch the development of this issue.

The second one I thought was interesting is a process called the investigative hearing. This is something similar to a process whereby people would receive a subpoena to appear before a hearing in which they would be asked certain questions related to their activities. This may lead to other things. However it is another tool which would help to achieve the objectives of the bill to allow those who are responsible for detecting and preventing terrorist activities from occurring to be able to deter terrorist activity.

The bill contains a number of other aspects. Members have very eloquently described the extension of wiretap provisions and the impact on other jurisdictions, police forces and provincial integration.

In looking at this issue I thought about the ongoing process and discussions of the post-September 11 attacks. It has to do with the allegation by some that Canada is a haven for terrorists. This is a very serious allegation and a very serious indictment and Canada should strongly respond to the myth of that statement.

This act will be one of the tools we can use to dispel that myth. It would be quite legitimate to suggest that if Canada did not have an effective anti-terrorism piece of legislation comparable to the legislation in place in other jurisdictions such as the United States, Great Britain or elsewhere it would be the weakest link. Canada would in fact become that haven. It is very important for us to know what is going on internationally to make sure that the provisions under this act work and work in the same realm of effectiveness we see in other jurisdictions.

I want to finish off with something that concerned me a bit today. There was a speech on the bill by the Leader of the Opposition in the House. As usual, the discussion always seems to slip into immigration and refugee issues. We talk about new Canadians and how we will toughen up the Immigration Act because of criminals coming into Canada or what will we do about it.

No issue has been stressed more by the Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and members of our caucus than the importance of understanding this is not a war against Afghanistan. There are terrorists who happen to be in Afghanistan. We cannot let this become a cultural or a religious bias. I do not think anyone in Canada would say that anyone of Afghani background should be suspected of being a terrorist.

I remind Canadians of what the Prime Minister said last night in the debate and today in question period. We have taken every step possible to ensure that the rights and freedoms of Canadians and all those on our soil who are protected by the charter of rights have been fully taken into account. Those rights and freedoms will be unaffected substantively by this legislation.

There is no question that we, as a small country with a baby boomer situation and an aging society, will depend very heavily on the immigration system over the next 20 years to provide us with people to support our population base and our economic base.

We welcome immigrants. We welcome new Canadians to the best country in the world. Those rights and freedoms that the Prime Minister was so instrumental in bringing to Canada are rights and freedoms that we are going to protect as part of this bill.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Madam Speaker, our attention has been turned upon a changed world since the New York and Washington, D.C., terrorist attacks of September 11. A paradigm shift has occurred, like no other that most of us will ever see. I do not believe we will ever erase the impact of these tragic events on our personal lives, on the life of our nation and indeed on that of our global village. We have had a wake up call like few others in our history.

I have been very proud of the leadership of our Prime Minister and of the tremendous competence exhibited by our cabinet ministers as the government responded quickly, responsibly and carefully to the new challenges of making our neighbourhoods, our country and our world safer for everyone.

I have also been very impressed with the calm and caring response of my constituents and Canadians from coast to coast who refused to rush to justice. I believe the vast majority of my constituents and Canadians, as they express their support for our American neighbours, want us to deal firmly, effectively, thoroughly, but justly, with the threat of terrorism everywhere, not only through this terrible episode but in the future as well.

As we debate Bill C-36, a bill to combat terrorism, let us first review some of the many challenges that seized the attention of our leaders and the government over the past month.

There was the whole general area of security, especially airport security. I remind members that each one of these security matters entailed tremendously complex issues to be resolved and they were resolved quickly and effectively with the assistance of a tremendous public service. There was border security. As we all know, we share the longest unprotected border in the world with our U.S. neighbours. Included with the issue of border security was making sure that cross-border commerce would soon return to some semblance of normality. I would like to mention that the president one of my constituent businesses, Manitoulin Transport, contacted me and asked for our best efforts to make sure that cross-border commerce would return as soon as possible. I am sure every effort will be expended to achieve that goal.

The Prime Minister and all of us have been seized with trying to get life back to normal, making sure that tourists were travelling and that small businesses were trading not only among themselves in this country but across the border.

The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has been seized with refugee and immigration issues, and of course the media attention, especially in the early days, really put a tremendous amount of pressure on her and the government. I appreciate how it was handled. Her response, along with the responses of other ministers, resulted in great confidence across the nation.

More recently there have been issues of bioterrorism, but we do not know the outcome yet. There is also the issue of money laundering.

Of course there is the need to respond in a military way to the call of our U.S. neighbours and allies to deal with terrorism. We can only express our pride in and appreciation for our military personnel, land, air and sea, for their willingness to be prepared and to, when needed, enter into dangerous situations on our behalf to make sure that we, our children and grandchildren can look forward to a more peaceful world.

The public has noted with approval the support of both sides of the House for the involvement of our military in Afghanistan and here at home and for the need for an appropriate military response. It has been refreshing. Partisanship has for the most part been set aside during this difficult time. I do know that the public appreciates that.

November 11 is the day that we cherish each year to remember the members of our military from past wars and peacekeeping. We have come to count upon our legion branches across this country to make sure that we never forget the terror and tragedy of war. It is very comforting that at this time we have those elders among us to make sure that we continue with measured steps over the weeks, months and years ahead. There are many lessons that we can learn from our legion members. I want to express thanks to them for what they have done for us. I know that we will be counting on them considerably in the future.

I would like to very briefly mention that I think the government's response to the September 11 attacks has been clear and concise. Canada's anti-terrorism plan has four major objectives. The first is to basically stop terrorists from getting into Canada in the first place and to protect Canadians from terrorist acts. The second is to bring forward tools to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists. The third is to prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage by terrorists and impacting on the Canadian economy. We count on that Canada-U.S. trade. The fourth is to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and address the root causes of such hatred.

More specifically regarding Bill C-36, we must give some credit to the great number of public servants who spent intense hours and days in a large group effort to bring forth legislation that I believe will withstand the test of time. However, with the assistance of the justice committee it will no doubt be made even better. We commend them for their efforts.

Bill C-36 includes defining and designating terrorist groups and activities to make it easier to prosecute terrorists and those who support them. It includes tougher sentences for terrorism offences. It would make it an offence to knowingly participate in, facilitate or contribute to the activities of a terrorist group. It would make it an offence to instruct anyone to carry out a terrorist activity or an activity on behalf of a terrorist group. It would be an offence to knowingly harbour a terrorist. Also, it would move us forward in cutting off financial support for terrorists and would make it a crime to knowingly collect money or give funds either directly or indirectly in order to carry out terrorism. It would make it easier to deny or remove charitable status from terrorist groups under the Income Tax Act and easier to freeze and seize their assets. Of the 12 UN conventions, of which Canada has already ratified 10, the last 2 are ratified in the bill.

I hesitate to use the word war. I prefer the word campaign, because I think our efforts here are about making peace. However, sometimes making peace requires a firm hand and a firm resolve to deal with people who would abuse the freedoms of others. This is not a campaign against an ethnic group nor is it one against a country or a religion. It is a campaign against terrorists, who are essentially criminals seeking to destabilize our society for their own ends. Regardless of how they would rationalize those ends, in the eyes of the vast majority of the people on this planet those ends are not justifiable. Not only have they hijacked planes for their terrible cause, they have also hijacked a great religion, Islam. Indeed, the roots of Judaism, Islam and Christianity are the same. I am sure no amount of terrorism will deter us from finding peace some day for the entire world.

As I wish our military bon voyage, safe travel and a quick return, I will conclude by expressing my hope that the co-ordinated efforts of the countries of world at this time to deal with terrorism will in due course turn to dealing with the other great challenges of this planet, such as poverty, environmental pollution and other forms of crime.

I am pleased to have a chance to speak tonight. I only hope we will see the end of all this soon.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I rose in the House to speak with respect to our Canadian forces and the deployment of over 2,000 of them with respect to the campaign against terrorism. Today I rise to speak about the legislative changes in Bill C-36 as they affect the defence portfolio.

One of the objectives of the government's anti-terrorism bill is to eliminate the obstacles to the security of our country.

The proposed anti-terrorism legislation will amend the National Defence Act to align it with changes in the criminal code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Security Information Act. For example, the National Defence Act would incorporate the definitions of terrorist events, terrorist activity and terrorist group. This is to bring the military justice system, which is a separate system, completely in line with the civilian system.

A second set of amendments contained in this package would provide additional authorities to the Communications Security Establishment or CSE. This organization has an important role to play in the campaign against terrorism since it is heavily involved in intelligence information gathering and analysis. Not only does it intercept and analyze foreign communications it also helps to protect the government's information systems and networks.

The world is changing and so must CSE. The organization needs to sharpen its focus on critical trends, on national issues and, most important, on terrorism. These new authorities would enable it to meet the requirements of the new environment and provide the kind of foreign intelligence that Canada, working closely with our key allies, will need in the coming months and years. This new framework would help CSE work more effectively to help protect our own federal government computer systems and networks.

The intelligence needs of the government have changed greatly since the end of the cold war.

At the same time, advances in technology have radically changed the way the world communicates. These changes have made it increasingly difficult for CSE to operate effectively within existing authorities. Currently in its information gathering the CSE is focused on foreign entities. It can only pick up information in foreign countries, not in Canada. Under section 184 of the criminal code it is unable to pick up any communication that either starts in Canadaand is sent to a foreign country or is sent from a foreign country to Canada. If two terrorists are communicating in foreign countries, we could pick it up. If one of the terrorists moves into Canada, we cannot. Therefore we are stymied in an attempt to deal with the terrorist problem. This unduly constrains the effectiveness of the Communications Security Establishment.

We know that terrorists and those who support them communicate with people in many different countries and they do communicate with people in Canada. However, under the criminal code, if CSE is targeting a known terrorist abroad and that individual then communicates with somebody in Canada we cannot intercept the communication.

This constrains our intelligence collection apart from that of our closest allies. We are working closely with the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. Those countries have had the legal framework in place since the second world war, and that is what I am asking that we do through Bill C-36.

It is also important to understand that the proposed amendment would not authorize CSE to focus its collection effort on Canadians. The effort must continue to be focused on foreign entities and not on Canadians. The proposed amendment states that CSE's activities would not be directed toward any person who is a Canadian. It would simply enable CSE to intercept the communications for foreign intelligence targets located abroad when their communications go in or out of Canada or to an unknown location.

CSE also requires additional authority, which that it does not presently have to protect our own federal government 's computer systems and networks from any mischief, unauthorized use, hacking or interference.

Monitoring systems are indispensable tools in assessing the vulnerabilities of our networks. Under its current legal framework CSE is restricted in its ability to monitor the computer systems or networks of the government.

The proposed amendment would therefore authorize it to perform in a more effective monitoring fashion. This measure would help to assure the protection of government computer systems. I am sure that is what Canadians want. They want to have their government protect its systems and its networks into the future, particularly when more government services are going online.

An important point here is privacy. Let me assure the House that the privacy of Canadians remains paramount and that it would continue to be protected through an effective control regime in the conduct of CSE's operations.

As Minister of National Defence, before authorizing CSE to collect foreign communications which originate or terminate in Canada for purposes of foreign intelligence, I would have to be satisfied on four counts: first, that Canadians and persons in Canada would not be targeted; second, that the intelligence resulting from this collection could be reasonably be obtained by other means; third, that the value of the intelligence would justify the means of interception; and, fourth, that a private communication would only be used or retained when it was essential to the advancement of Canadian interest, defence or security.

I should point out that CSE has an unblemished publicly available record of compliance with similar kinds of controls in the regime it has already operated under for a great many years. Over the past several years both the privacy commissioner and the CSE's own commissioner, a retired judge from the court of appeal in Quebec, have examined CSE's handling of information involving Canadians. They concluded that it was done in compliance with Canada's legal framework, including the Privacy Act and the charter of rights and freedoms.

I have confidence that this would continue if CSE operates under these proposed new authorities. The commissioner's own mandate is strengthened in this legislation to ensure that it does so.

Good intelligence is one of the most important contributions that Canada can make to the campaign against terrorism we are waging with our allies. The proposed amendment enhances Canada's foreign intelligence capacity by allowing CSE to intercept communications that may have a direct bearing on terrorist operations.

The proposed amendment will be welcomed by our allies as they already have this authority. It will be welcomed by them as evidence that we are committed to remaining an active and contributing member of our close intelligence partnerships. It will also enable us to more effectively protect the computer systems and networks of the Government of Canada.

I believe the additional authorities provided to CSE and the changes to the National Defence Act I have outlined would give us better tools to fight terrorism effectively in the long run.

I therefore recommend that we support them.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to enter the debate, particularly because the government moved so quickly. Much of the work that went into the bill should have been done years ago but nonetheless it is before us now.

A few years ago the Royal Canadian Legion had a motto “If you can't remember, think”. There are many people in the House today, and no doubt many people watching, who cannot remember certain events in our history. I remember very well the events of September 3, 1939. I remember September 10, 1939, when Canada declared war. I was only a boy. At the time I heard some of the funniest statements one would ever want to hear, but none as vicious as a statement I heard on September 11, 2001, on Canadian television. I will get back to that later.

On December 7, 1941, a Sunday morning I remember like yesterday, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Do members know what I heard in this country? I heard that the United States had it coming. I would like members to recall that date in 1941. Canadians and we in the House had better thank God we had the United States as an ally. If not, we would probably not be sitting here enjoying the freedom we are enjoying this very day.

On the morning of September 11, 2001, my Ottawa office staff phoned me and said they had been asked to leave. They told me to turn on my television. As I sat having breakfast with my wife, I said that before the day was over I would hear some of the same crapola I heard following December 7, 1941. Sure enough, all day long on September 11, 2001, and in the days that followed I have heard that the United States had it coming.

The statements were not made by anyone in the House because the House was not in session. However the CBC carried some programs that made me sick to my stomach. They defamed our partner and ally through two world wars. They blamed the whole thing on the United States.

There are people in the House who say the United Nations should take the lead role rather than the United States. I am sorry, but one of our UN nations admitted the other day that it had within its borders many of the same people whose names are on the list for terrorism. Sweden, a member of the United Nations, said it could not do anything about it until these people broke a law.

We do not need to worry about the bill going too far because it will not need an examination in three years. It will need to be expanded before then. I do not think for one moment that we have seen the last of the war on terrorism. There is a whole lot more coming. If there is one theme I would like to leave the Chamber with it is this: No one's rights can ever exceed the nation's right to security.

We pick up the papers and read all these things about sweeping rights. We read that lawyers and civil rights people have concerns. No one's rights can ever exceed the right to have a secure nation. We must be cognizant of this fact: We did not have the charter of rights during World War II but the security of the nation was utmost in everybody's mind.

We came a lot closer to having war on our very soil on September 11 than we did during those five years of conflict. Canadians were killed not many miles south of the border.

We have this hogwash in Canada that to be a true Canadian one must somehow hate the Americans. It is generated. When I listen to certain university professors, and everyone probably knows the one I am referring to, I wonder what kind of message they are sending our students and young people who attend university. It is shameful. It is disgraceful for the nation.

Let us look at our charter for a moment. Let us look at what happened in Seattle. Do we have freedom of assembly? Yes, we do. Do we have freedom of expression? Everything is freedom of expression in this country but who gets all the attention? Was the Operation SalAMI meeting a legal meeting? Yes, it was. Were the protesters given legal rights? Yes, they were. The same was true in Quebec. However we must always put our weight on the ability of security forces to protect a legally constituted meeting.

We need to re-examine some of these things. We hear people in the House, mainly members of the NDP, say we should not get involved in the campaign against terrorism. We should not get involved? The Minister of National Defence knows full well that any boat could pull into Toronto harbour undetected and blast away. It is possible. We need to think of the security of the nation more than we need to think of individual rights. This is terror.

I represent a rural constituency. This morning at 9 o'clock some people picked up their mail from a small post office in my riding. They took it home and opened it and powder was in the envelope. They were not ready for that. Neither was the RCMP. After nine hours someone finally came and picked up the envelope. A lady is now receiving precautionary antibiotics.

We need to state clearly to the Canadian people that this is not the end of the crisis. Canada is subject to attack in any place and at any time. The question is not so much whether we must go back and re-examine Bill C-36. The question well may be whether we must strengthen its measures for greater security. That may sound a bit rough for some people. However let us not worry about our individual rights. Let us worry about the security of our country.

In our country and in my province we have terrorism of a different sort. Bill C-36's definition of terrorism fits what is happening in some of our cities. Homes are being raided and destroyed. People are being molested. That is terrorism, even as defined by Bill C-36. The powers of the bill, which some call wide and sweeping but which I call common sense, could be applied to the domestic scene as well.

I am proud to support the bill but there is one thing I want to see forgotten. I want to see Canada take a far different approach through its media, the CBC and its town halls. We must stop thinking that to be Canadian we need to defame the United States.

It is about time. We enjoy our security because of our partnership with the United States. We do not enjoy any misdoings of United States events as our allies in World War I or World War II. It is time now that Canadians realize that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first, this bill will be important to our law enforcement and security agencies. They need the bill because we need to stop terrorists from getting into Canada and need to protect Canadians from terrorists.

As a nation we must be prepared to ensure our safety and security. We need more and more powerful tools to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists and those who support them.

The legislation would give our law enforcement, security agencies and courts the ability to do so. Our allies also need the bill. If we truly want to be a leader in the international effort to deprive terrorists of sanctuary, to shut off their funding and leave them nowhere to turn, we must have strong anti-terrorism laws.

We must ratify the international conventions on the suppression of terrorist financing and suppression of bombing and the convention on the safety of United Nations personnel. We must be part of the solution.

This is especially true for our common border. The free flow of people, goods and services between Canada and the United States is absolutely essential for both of us. We must prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage by terrorists. If we do not then the terrorists will have won.

As the House will know, the nature of terrorism is constantly changing. Terrorist operations are decentralized and terrorist cells are made up of highly motivated and skilled individuals.

Canada, the United States and countries around the world are adapting to dealing with new and emerging terrorist threats and methods of operation. We are constantly re-examining and improving what we do and how we do it.

The Government of Canada has already taken significant measures to enhance our ability to fight terrorism and will continue to take any and all necessary measures to ensure the country remains safe and secure.

Last week the Government of Canada announced a series of measures to improve airport security and improve RCMP capacity to fight terrorism, especially in joint operations with our neighbours to the south, to tighten up immigration procedures and freeze assets of terrorists.

A full $250 million in new funding is being invested immediately, and just last year we allocated $1.5 billion to the RCMP, CSIS, CIC and other public safety partners to ensure that they continue to have the tools they need to do their jobs effectively.

Through the special committee chaired by my colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, we continue our review of laws, policies and procedures. As the Prime Minister has said, what we need to change will be changed.

It is evident that Canada and the United States have a long record of close co-operation in fighting terrorism and transnational crime. No two countries work more closely together on law enforcement.

The whole point of our anti-terrorism plan, which includes this legislation, is to deter and disable terrorists. In this regard, our efforts and those of the United States will be complementary.

RCMP, CSIS, local police, customs, immigration and transport officials work closely with their American counterparts each and every day in their ongoing efforts to ensure the safety and security of our citizens.

Joint investigations and operations and the sharing of information and intelligence show how close the relationship is between our two countries.

These activities are possible thanks to the seamless co-operation that exists at every level of our national law enforcement, intelligence, security, customs and immigration agencies.

When I was in Washington two weeks ago to meet with attorney general John Ashcroft he told me the United States government was impressed. He thanked me for the co-operation it had received from CSIS and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He said that before the U.S. could ask Canada for help we were already co-operating to do the things we knew to be necessary so we could succeed and bring the terrorists to justice. That is high praise. It is true that while we protect Canada and Canadians we also help protect our American friends and other allies.

To defeat terrorists we need to choke off their money supply. Bill C-36 goes a long way toward achieving that. It would designate certain groups as terrorist groups, make it easier to freeze their assets, prosecute those who give them financial support and deny or remove charitable status for designated groups. It would cut off financial support for terrorists by making it a crime to collect or give funds either directly or indirectly to carry out terrorism.

There is no doubt that some of the measures we propose are extraordinary. That is why we have included significant checks and balances. Canadians want the measures but they also want safeguards to ensure the measures are targeted to terrorists and those who support them.

Yes, we will give police more tools to investigate and prevent terrorist activity. Yes, we will make it easier to use electronic surveillance against terrorist groups. Yes, we will take steps to protect security information and detain terrorists. Yes, we will take measures against groups that abuse our registered charity system to raise funds for terrorists.

Simply put, a nation must be prepared to protect itself to ensure its safety and security. That is exactly what we are doing. The murderous attacks of September 11 showed the world that terrorists have no regard for their victims or themselves. If we are to prevent terrorism and save lives we need the tools in Bill C-36.

The bill's measures are targeted directly at terrorists but it is also important that the principles of judicial review and due process be respected. Bill C-36 has found that balance. It is consistent with the charter of rights and freedoms and it responds to the situation we face following September 11.

I hope all members of the House will support Bill C-36. The bill would provide our legal system and police officers with the important tools they need to do the job of making sure Canada remains the peaceful and safe place it has been for many years.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to add my comments to those expressed earlier on Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, by my coalition colleague from Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough.

Before I begin my comments on the bill itself, I would like to extend a sincere thanks on behalf of my constituents in Prince George--Peace River, and perhaps on behalf of all Canadians, to the architects of the anti-terrorism bill, who dropped everything and began working I suspect around the clock in order to have this bill ready for presentation to the House yesterday.

One can only imagine how onerous this task must have appeared during the first few meetings on those first few days. Yet the challenge was met with a level of confidence and professionalism of which all Canadians should be greatly proud.

Sadly it is often the case that the work and sacrifices of these dedicated individuals goes unnoticed or unappreciated. I would like to assure everyone involved in the drafting of this legislation that the entire country has taken notice of their work and thanks them for their sacrifice.

As a member of the opposition, it is not very often that I find myself in the position of agreeing with something that the government has done or that it has made a commitment to do. The fundamental differences in our values and beliefs are what keep us on opposite sides of the House.

However there are occasions such as yesterday, when the government supported our supply day motion condemning the attacks of September 11, affirming our support for the men and women of our military headed overseas and the joint meeting of the defence and foreign affairs committees, where the government finds itself supporting the opposition or conversely the opposition supporting the government.

The international war against terrorism is one such occasion. I commend the government and the Minister of Justice for undertaking the introduction of this important new piece of legislation.

The bill represents an important step but not the only step in the development of a national strategy to address a threat that until recently we believed to be a problem inherent in countries elsewhere in the world. That perception of the world, perhaps somewhat misguided, some might even say naive, was a reflection of the world that Canadians want to live in, the Canada that we want to protect.

I struggle now to ensure that the reaction that we undertake as parliamentarians and as Canadians is an intricate balance between our desire to ensure that we are protected from harm and our desire to ensure that we do not fundamentally change the way life that has been carefully nurtured and protected by previous generations of Canadians.

This is the balance that I know was in the minds of the drafters, lawyers, advisers and countless others who contributed to the bill. It is a balance that I believe has been fundamentally achieved. Of course the devil is in the details. However I am confident that any concerns that we, the PC/DR coalition, may have will be adequately addressed during the review of the bill by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

As I mentioned previously, the bill represents only one of a number of important elements in the fight against those determined to undermine our confidence and democracy and our way of life. The passage into law of the anti-terrorism act will provide us with a way to deter, disable and dismantle terrorist activity, but having the means by which to undertake these activities is equally important.

As with any law, it is essentially useless unless we have someone to enforce it. Manpower, the human element in counterterrorism activities is an area that has suffered considerable neglect in recent years. It is an area that we can ill afford to continue to ignore. Year after year for the past decade the budgets of the Department of National Defence, CSIS and the RCMP were slashed. Entire departments in some cases, such as the Canada ports police, were eliminated.

Frontline security duties, such as airport security, were privatized. The focus at our borders was shifted from security and enforcement to revenue generation and cash collection, all without due consideration as to the long term effects these cuts might have on our national security.

The aftermath of the events of September 11 have shown that we cannot continue along this route. Canadians are tuning in to the fact that the increased police presence at airports, nuclear power plants and even on Parliament Hill is a redeployment of existing officers and that redeployment means less coverage somewhere else. The practices of underfunding and understaffing are being noticed and Canadians want something done about them.

Last week, in keeping with the government's approach of tell the world before it tells parliament, Canadians were subjected to a national parade of cabinet ministers clambering over one another to make the next announcement of a new government initiative for what can only be described as a full court press in a game of catch up. In the world of public relations I believe it is called damage control.

As mesmerizing as it was to watch minister after minister after minister and sometimes three at once announce new funding, it was a completely redundant exercise since the Minister of Foreign Affairs had previously announced that a meagre $250 million would be made available as an immediate response to the deficiencies identified in our national security network.

Despite attempts to generate enthusiasm for the one time expenditure, it is readily apparent that this cannot be the full extent of financial resources devoted to improving national security. As it is, the Department of the Solicitor General of Canada only receives an annual budget of $1.5 billion, which has to cover all operating costs of both CSIS and the RCMP. Even if the full amount of the additional spending were allocated exclusively to the solicitor general, it would only represent an increase of 16.63% in the national security budget.

Given the recent public opinion poll supporting an increase in spending on national defence of $3 billion to $9 billion, one could conclude that Canadians would also be receptive to spending much more than the $1.75 billion on intelligence and national policing.

It is also apparent that to have any meaningful impact the funding of our armed forces and national policing agencies must be increased on a long term basis to ensure that the agencies responsible for national security have the ability to sustain operations at the desired levels. Now more than ever it would be irresponsible for the government not to introduce a budget outlining to Canadians how it intends to finance our war on terrorism over the long term.

I would like to return at this point to the specifics of Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act. While I have nothing further to add with respect to my comments on what the bill sets out to accomplish, I would like to add one comment with respect to what I consider an intricate component that is not contained in this bill.

Part 5 of the bill is devoted to the amendment of other acts and proceeds to introduce amendments that are deemed necessary to ensure that this bill integrates properly with existing Canadian law and to allow the new act to achieve the desired objective.

What I find surprising in this amendment to other acts section is that there is no amendment to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act that would broaden the mandate of CSIS to include conducting international and covert information gathering operations as part of its normal operations. I question how we will participate in the international fight against terrorism without giving our intelligence service an international mandate. It would seem to me that this is a question that should be considered by the committee when the bill has been referred for its consideration.

I hope that the introduction of the bill represents the beginning of the government's fight against the threat of international terrorism and not the end. There is much work to be done if we are to rid ourselves of this evil and providing that we are given the opportunity to participate through debates and information briefings, I am certain the government will find itself with all the support it needs during these challenging times.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to express my support for the government's anti-terrorism legislation, Bill C-36, and for Canada's participation in the international effort to bring to justice the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks of September 11.

There are no words adequate to describe the horrors felt by people around the world at the slaughter of thousands of innocents and the images of passenger planes crashing into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Over six thousand innocent people were slaughtered. Thousands of widows, widowers and orphans were created. Children lost parents and people lost friends and co-workers. No one was untouched. People who did not lose a relative or a friend lost their peace of mind.

In combating terrorism we are acting in concert with our NATO allies, which have all agreed to invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty. It states that an aggression against one member country is considered an aggression against all. Our actions are consistent with the United Nations convention on the suppression of terrorist bombing and the right of a nation to defend itself against aggression.

The anti-terrorism act has four objectives: to stop terrorists from getting into Canada and to protect Canadians from terrorist acts; to bring forward tools to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists; to prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage by terrorists; and to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and to address the root causes of such hatred. The bill accomplishes these objectives. These measures are in keeping with the actions of our allies.

As a nation we must be prepared to ensure our safety and security. The bill is not perfect and I hope that committee will recommend a sunset provision. I also expect that other improvements will be proposed in committee. It is incumbent upon free and democratic countries to send a clear message to those who perpetrated the horrible acts of September 11. Therefore we must act. The message is that those who have chosen the path of terror to achieve their political ends will be apprehended and brought to justice.

Governments of countries that support terrorists are equally responsible for the actions of those terrorists. Efforts toward eradication of terrorism will be long term and multi-dimensional and to this end we must dedicate ourselves to eliminating the conditions that breed terrorism. We must strongly censure countries that act in their own military, political or economic interests to support terrorist, fascist and extremist factions in other countries. Their actions cause political destabilization and undermine the integrity of the social, physical and economic infrastructure in those countries. Too often this leads to disenfranchisement, poverty and oppression of people in those countries. The deep rooted resentment and hatred they feel toward those who are seen to have caused their misery is a breeding ground for terrorism.

Canadians want the root causes of terrorism addressed. The inequities in affluence between the west and the rest of the people in the global village must also be addressed. Our safety and well-being are not only rooted in creating and supporting political and social conditions and institutions that are sustainable and have the confidence of the people they are intended to serve; we in the west will also have to provide increased resources for human development in troubled societies if we are to be effective in combating terrorism.

The Prime Minister said in his address to the NATO parliamentary assembly on October 9 what we can never repeat often enough, that Canada and its coalition partners:

--have no quarrel with the people of Afghanistan. And they have no quarrel with us. Our dispute is with the terrorists and the Taliban regime that insists on giving them safe harbour.

The people of Afghanistan need our support. They have suffered horribly because of years of drought and war in their country. To this end, Canada and its allies have significantly increased contributions of humanitarian aid for Afghan refugees.

Our fight with terrorism does not represent a conflict between religions or cultures. Terrorist acts are in no way supported by the morals, beliefs or practices of Islam. Like all faiths, Islam is about peace, justice and universal brotherhood and encourages harmony among all people. Muslims in Canada and around the world have joined us in condemning terrorism.

We are engaged in an armed conflict so we must be particularly vigilant in protecting the rights and security of all our ethnic minorities. It is unacceptable and offensive in a democratic, pluralistic nation such as ours that even one act of intolerance would be perpetrated against our fellow citizens.

We have many fellow Canadians who are Muslims, Christians and Jews who are from the Middle East or are of that ancestry and other Canadians who look like they might have come from there. It is important to remember that Judaism, Christianity, Islam and all other religions abhor the terrorism that has taken place. This act was carried out by a small group of fanatic extremists. We must fight any expression of xenophobia by reaching out to our fellow Canadians and speaking out against hate and intolerance.

I am very pleased to see the strong and consistent efforts made by all parliamentarians and by our government to allay the tensions and fears felt by minorities in our country. Our present actions contrast most favourably with the dark days of our history when the government was the leading force in carrying out acts of intolerance, a past where we interned those we considered dangerous during our wars and whose only sin was being different, the most grievous of these being against Canadians of Japanese descent, thousands of whom were forcibly repatriated to Japan after the last war.

However, we have evolved. Canada has evolved into a country that is made up of people from all over the world representing every religion and ethnic group. We have come together in this country to build one of the most prosperous and inclusive societies. Canada shines as a beacon of hope in the troubled world too often torn by ethnic hatreds and intolerance.

Bin Laden, the Taliban and all terrorists feed on hatred and intolerance. It is in their interest to promote hatred so they can carry out their terrorist acts. Every Canadian and every individual concerned with terrorism can join the war against terrorism by working for an inclusive society at home and abroad. We can do so by reaching out to people and respecting their different religions and cultures and their humanity. We will not tolerate any expressions of racism in our communities. The anti-terrorist legislation, Bill C-36, strengthens our laws on hate crimes.

In closing, I would like to express my support for and gratitude to the courageous men and women of our armed forces. I believe that I can speak for everyone in the House in wishing them a safe return to their homes and families after they complete their tour of duty in making our country a safer place.

Privilege

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time today with the member for Kitchener--Waterloo. A few weeks ago following the terrorist attacks in New York City on September 11 we met in the House to debate a motion that called on our government to introduce anti-terrorism legislation as soon as possible. I am pleased to see that the minister and her staff have been able to respond this quickly.

I want to express my strong support for Bill C-36, a made in Canada legislative response to the problems of terrorism. It is a response that we hope will be effective, while being drawn up in such a way as to be respectful of the constitutionality of the protected rights of Canadians.

This legislation gives expression to our common resolve as Canadians to ensure that those persons who plan or direct terrorist attacks and those persons and entities that play a role in supporting them financially, or otherwise provide them with the material support which facilitates such acts, are denounced as criminals and brought to justice no matter where they may be found.

Canadians believe that all acts of terrorism are criminal and unjustifiable and that they should be condemned as such. We are confident that by enacting such legislation we are joining other like minded countries around the world in efforts to prevent the commission of similar crimes in the future.

Canadians would agree that the objective of enacting effective anti-terrorism legislation is laudable and necessary. Canadians would also want us to reflect in a sober and critical fashion on the nature of such legislation. I do not believe they would agree that it is necessary to abandon our values, which make Canada a free and democratic society, to fight terrorism.

I am pleased that the preamble to the bill contains language through which parliament recognizes that the requirements of national security and the need to combat global terrorism must be carried out with due regard to the rights and freedoms guaranteed in the Canadian charter so that we can be true to the values of our society even as we battle this terrible thing.

Canada has worked in concert with the international community for many years to pursue initiatives that are intended to reduce the threat posed by international terrorists. It should be noted that Canadian diplomats played a leading role in the negotiation of the two most recent international counterterrorism conventions, namely the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombing and the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism.

I want to comment on the specific aspects of Bill C-36. When the Canadian government signed these international counterterrorism agreements it was seen as a commitment by Canada to move toward their ratification at some time in the future. Unfortunately that time has arrived.

The draft legislation contains measures that would allow Canada to implement three international conventions, two of which concern the fight against terrorism. The most recent of these is the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism, which would outlaw fundraising activities in support of terrorism and create provisions for the seizure and forfeiture of the assets belonging to the terrorists or placed at their disposal.

It would also give effect to United Nations security council resolution 1373 of September 28 that requires all states to take action to prevent and suppress terrorist financing.

Bill C-36 contains measures to implement the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings that Canada signed in 1998 in response to an increase in recent years of terrorist attacks directed against civilian and government targets by means of explosive devices or biological and chemical substances. In one of these indiscriminate attacks in November 1996 a Canadian woman was killed in a terrorist bombing of a Paris subway station.

The bill would implement the convention on the safety of United Nations and associated personnel. While this convention is not regarded as a counterterrorism agreement it does cover acts of violence directed against the official premises, private accommodation or means of transportation of United Nations or associated personnel. It recognizes that there is a need for appropriate and effective measures to prevent attacks against the United Nations and associated personnel.

The implementation of each of these conventions requires amendments to the criminal code to ensure that the crimes identified in each of these agreements are offences under our law and to extend the jurisdiction of Canadian courts over terrorist activities abroad.

A person alleged to have committed a convention crime abroad may be prosecuted in Canada if after the commission of the offence he or she is found in Canada and is not extradited to another state that could also claim jurisdiction over the offence.

Similarly under the amendments proposed in Bill C-36 a person responsible for a terrorist bombing of a public transportation system in another country in which a Canadian was killed or injured could be extradited to Canada to stand trial here for that offence.

Canada has taken these steps to ensure that terrorists are brought to justice by effectively denying them sanctuary after the commission of a terrorist crime. There should be no safe havens for terrorists. The terrorist attacks in the cities of New York and Washington on September 11 demonstrated to all of us that there is an urgent need for the international community to act together in concert to ensure that each has effective legislation in place to choke off fundraising efforts for terrorists and to enact the necessary legislation to implement the entire series of international and anti-terrorism agreements.

I congratulate the Minister of Justice and all those who worked so hard and so very quickly to bring forth Bill C-36. Bill C-36 contains the additional measures that our law enforcement and security services require to meet the threat posed by terrorism. It is simultaneously focused, effective, broad reaching and reflective of Canadian values.

Members will have an opportunity to do some work on the bill in the justice committee. There are issues that we all share. For example, should there be a sunset clause? How do we protect against abuse of powers? These are issues that will certainly be dealt with in committee.

It will also provide the opportunity for all of us in the House to air our concerns and to make sure the legislation gives the authorities the tools they need to protect the civil rights of all Canadians.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to participate in the important debate on Bill C-36, the government's anti-terrorism act.

There is without question deep concern among Canadians across the country about the horrific acts that took place on September 11. As we begin to come to terms with what happened and determine what kind of responses there need to be, we in the New Democratic Party have stated clearly every day in the House that our response should be undertaken through the United Nations and in accordance with international law. It should be a response that promotes peace and justice rather than further violence and militarism. The NDP has articulated that position very well even if it is not popular to do so these days.

In addressing the bill before us today in terms of the measures we are prepared to take and the powers we should confer upon law enforcement agencies, there may be a rush to get the legislation through. However it is incumbent upon us as members of parliament and upholders of the public interest to have a sober analysis and review of the bill.

I have heard a lot of talk in the House today that the bill would provide the necessary tools to law enforcement agencies. A lot of members have remarked on that. I and my colleagues in the NDP want to make sure those tools do not become sledgehammers that undermine or crush civil liberties and freedoms.

In speaking to the bill we must be circumspect. We must be thoughtful and look at what its impact would be not only in the short term but in the long term. I have been reading through various opinions of experts and lawyers and look forward to the opinions of witnesses who will go to the committee. One opinion in particular struck me. The president of the Ontario Criminal Lawyers’ Association was quoted in the media today as saying that to turn Canada into a police state in the name of liberty is bizarre.

As we examine the bill we must look at each and every clause to ensure that the broad powers and measures it contains will be used in a way that ensures continued public accountability, transparency and due process of law.

There was an interesting article in the Globe and Mail today which said that most Canadians would not be terribly inconvenienced by the justice minister's proposals. It said the costs would instead be borne by people who find themselves targets of police suspicion because of their ethnic background, radical political views or association with immigrant communities that have ties with groups deemed to be terrorist fronts.

It was an interesting commentary. It may well be that most Canadians support the legislation because they do not see that it would have an impact on them. They see it as powerful tool to deal with their legitimate fears about terrorist attacks.

However we must examine what the measures are and how they would be applied. One thing I am concerned about is how the measures in the act would be targeted to certain groups in our society. Are there adequate protections in the bill to ensure that the strong measures and broad powers it contains will be targeted, as the member for London West has said, to people who are engaged in terrorist activities and not merely members of this or that group? Will the legislation have an application and political weight that begins to take on a broader net?

Today in the House during question period I raised the issue of students from other countries who come to Canada to study. It has been confirmed by the RCMP that such students are being questioned and investigated, particularly if they are in engineering or scientific programs and courses. While there may be reason to do this, why do we single out a group of people based on their ethnic background, country of origin or what they are studying? This may have an important impact on Canadian students of colour who may be of Arabic background or Muslim students who begin to feel they are being targeted in some way.

This is disturbing. A commentary in the Globe and Mail said that many of us will not be inconvenienced by the act. It said we will go about our business as usual and not feel targeted in any way. Given the backlash that has already taken place in the country we must be terribly concerned about the bill's impact in terms of targeting visible minorities, political activists or even labour activists.

I will focus on three specific areas of Bill C-36. As others have mentioned, it is a massive bill. It contains about 170 pages and 146 clauses. None of us have had time yet to go through it thoroughly. We hope that will happen at committee. However it struck me that there are three things we must look at carefully in terms of the balance between our need to protect civil liberties under the charter of rights and freedoms and our need to protect safety and security.

First, the definition of terrorist activity concerns me. Bill C-36 defines a terrorist activity as an action in or outside Canada that is taken or threatened for political, religious or ideological purposes and threatens the public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing substantial property damage that is likely to seriously harm people, or interfering with or disrupting an essential service, facility or system.

The definition is carefully circumscribed to make it clear that disrupting an essential service is not a terrorist activity if it occurs during a lawful protest or work strike and is not intended to cause serious harm to persons. The Minister of Justice addressed this in the House today when she was asked about it.

However we must closely examine this definition of terrorist activity and ask a substantive question: Have activities taken place in Canada that could be characterized as terrorist activities under the proposed legislation? There are several that come to mind.

Recently in B.C. members of a health care union participated in illegal strike activity. They walked out on a rotating basis. It was not a lawful protest or work strike as defined in the legislation.

This brings to mind that even Canada has historically developed anti-trust laws which were meant to prevent corporate monopolies from controlling goods and services but which in actual fact were used against labour unions to prevent them from organizing. The anti-trust laws were used against unions to take away people's right to organize.

These historical references are very important. I have a very serious concern about the definition that is being used. While I appreciate the fact that the government lawyers and the government side have gone to some lengths to try to come up with a definition that is specific, it seems to me that the way it is written is very problematic. It raises the question with me as to how broadly that could be applied.

I, along with my colleagues, participated in Quebec City at the summit of the Americas. We participated in the protests. To reiterate the remarks of our House leader in debate earlier today, he made it quite clear when he said that lawful sounds good, but there were a lot of young people who thought they were engaged in lawful protest in Quebec City way beyond the perimeter who did not challenge the wall or engage in property damage or anything like that. There were people who did participate in other forms of more direct action. How would those activities be characterized under the legislation, perhaps not in the next few months or in the next year, but what about several years from now, or if this legislation is still around, a decade from now? The definition of terrorist activity is of much concern.

Second, the other area I have a lot of concerns about is the whole notion of preventive arrest. This is something that is quite a new feature in terms of Canadian law and gives enormous powers to law enforcement agencies to arrest and detain people on the suspicion that they are about to commit a terrorist activity. While on the one hand I think that may make people feel safe and secure, it is demanded of us as parliamentarians to ask what kinds of protections there will be in this legislation to ensure that this very broad power is not abused and that people are not simply picked up willy-nilly all over the place for whatever activity might be deemed to be suspicious or somehow related to a terrorist activity. As I say, these are only a few of the things that jumped out at me as I read through the bill in a very summary way.

Third, there is the whole notion of an investigative hearing. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that this is really very new in Canadian legal undertakings, this idea that the police could compel persons to come forward with information before a judge even though they may not themselves be charged with something or they may not know what investigation is underway. In fact one senior federal official was quoted as saying that we remove the right to silence. To me this was another flag going up in terms of how and how broadly that would be applied.

Those are three areas that I think are very problematic with this bill. The other aspect I wanted to speak on is the permanency of the bill. I listened to the news last night and heard the comments made by Mr. Clayton Ruby, a very well known criminal lawyer and advocate of civil rights in Canada. I think he is an outstanding member of the legal community. I was very interested to hear his remarks. He reminded us of our history in terms of when legislation like this is brought in how permanent it will be.

Presumably it is permanent. We know it will go through a review in three years, but even when our House leader today raised the possibility of the notion of having a sunset clause, it seemed to me that the government was very reluctant to respond to that and basically shuffled it aside.

Mr. Ruby basically characterized this legislation as war measures legislation. I do believe we have to look at our history. We have to look at what it is that we are embarking upon. This weekend in Ottawa at the federal council of the New Democratic Party we had a very extensive debate about what took place on September 11, what the party's position has been and what it should say as events continue to unfold. I will quote part of the resolution that was passed by our federal council and brought forward by our international affairs committee.

The resolution states:

--at this critical time it is very important that Canadians be vigilant to protect against unwarranted attacks on fundamental civil liberties and human rights as part of the comprehensive response to terrorist attacks, bearing in mind the history of internment of Japanese Canadians and the proclamation of the War Measures Act in similar circumstances.

I can already hear some people asking why we would drag that up, saying that this is a different situation, but I really wonder if it is. Again, I believe it is incumbent upon us as members of the House who uphold the public interest to look at our history and consider that when these actions were taken, the War Measures Act, the internment of Japanese Canadians, there was also a political climate of wanting to take strong retaliatory action. In hindsight now, in the one case 50 years ago and the other case 30 years ago, there is a serious questioning as to whether or not those particular policies were things that actually needed to be done. I suppose we can say that hindsight is always perfect and we can always look for ways to criticize something that was done.

However, surely we can learn by examining the legislation that took place then and what its impact was on civil society and civil rights, and the singling out of identifiable people, in one instance Canadians of Japanese origin and in the other instance political activists. Our whole society was impacted by that in a very negative way.

I took Mr. Ruby's comments very much to heart as a sobering reflection on what the House is poised to do in terms of bringing in the legislation, which from all that we have been given to understand, will be permanent. What impact will that have on our civil liberties in the longer term? What kinds of powers are we giving to law enforcement agencies that will begin to turn us more and more into a society where more control is given to law enforcement agencies?

Some people may argue that is good and that is the price of fighting terrorism, but I think we have to examine that. We have to weigh that balance between civil liberties and the need for security. We have to ensure that we do protect civil liberties and rights and freedoms in Canada.

The Prime Minister said yesterday that he was genuinely interested in hearing amendments and feedback as this goes through committee. I hope that is true because to remove the protection for civil liberties is something that we are possibly on the brink of doing.

I have serious reservations about the bill. As it continues to go through committee some of those issues will come forward. I hope that members of the House will not be in such a rush to pass this legislation that will deeply offend the basic values of democracy and civil liberties in Canada in order to do what they believe is politically expedient and because there is public concern in regard to passing legislation.

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Hamilton West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the introduction of Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, stands as the fulfilment of the government's continued commitment to combating terrorism, a commitment that we have practised since our election and which was exemplified in our capacity to respond immediately to the horrific events of September 11.

To further extend the response capability and capacity of our country, we have introduced the bill with the intent to provide further tools to our law enforcement and national security agencies. The bill would aid in the task of rooting out terrorist organizations, and that will curtail future threats to the health and well-being of our citizens.

As such, the proposed act, while extending the powers of our security agencies to combat hate crimes, is consistent with and predicated on the word and spirit of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

It is of central importance that while finding an appropriate response to the current situation we act in accordance with the principles and values for which this country stands and which, as representatives of our respective communities, we must uphold.

Bill C-36 is designed to help us do exactly that. The new anti-terrorism plan has four key objectives: to stop terrorists from entering our country and to protect Canadians from terrorist acts; to bring forward tools to identify and prosecute terrorists; to prevent our borders from being held hostage; and to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and impact the root causes of such hatred.

The bill would help protect our borders economically and, just as important, it would protect the principles of openness and acceptance that are fundamental to the Canadian spirit. These are difficult times that require difficult decisions.

I have a message for my constituents in Hamilton West and my fellow Canadians. It is for them to go about their daily business and their daily lives as usual, to understand that we must now live in a state of heightened awareness. The bill is a response to and an expression of that heightened awareness.

In the fight against terrorism, there are many weapons in the Canadian arsenal. Some of these weapons are legislative, such as the bill before us today and some include the skills and commitment of our local and national security agencies and the capacity of our armed forces.

However there is another weapon that is often overlooked. It is the strong character of our country's pride in our commitment to cultural diversity. With this pride resides the confidence that hatred and violence will never find a home here in Canada.

It is from the wellspring of this pride that our Prime Minister recently asserted that “Canada will not use the justification of national security to abandon our cherished values of freedom and tolerance. We will not fall into the trap of exclusion”.

One of our country's most enviable features is its reputation as a land where individuals are free to practise their cultural activities and commitments as they see fit, a land where peace loving individuals from around the globe can come together in friendship and share their rich and diverse traditions. No other country can claim the same degree of success or commitment to multiculturalism.

It was back in 1971 that the Liberal government of the Right Hon. Pierre Trudeau made Canada the first country in the world to adopt an official policy of multiculturalism. We cannot doubt that in such multiplicity we as a nation are made strong. However we must also not doubt that our commitments to strength through diversity are also in danger of being hijacked by the purveyors of hatred and terror.

In my remarks to worshippers at a Hamilton mosque last week I said “I am proud to be the son of an immigrant. My father is proud to call himself Canadian”.

We are collectively a nation of many diverse cultures brought together by a common goal of peaceful coexistence and equality.

We must under no circumstances allow the world's terror merchants to export their hatred to Canada. We must not allow them to undermine the mutual respect that Canadians of all faiths and backgrounds have nurtured for 150 years. We have worked diligently to firmly establish the basic principles, values and shared beliefs that hold us together as Canadians.

In the wake of the tragic events of September 11 it is important; no, it is absolutely necessary, for Canadians to reaffirm the fundamental values of our charter of rights and freedoms: the equality of individuals of every culture, religion and ethnic origin. Our way of life and system of values has made us proud of our country and provided us a tremendous bounty of freedom, tolerance and justice.

It behoves us to protect ourselves through an awareness of what is at stake in our response to recent events. We could inflict damage on terrorists the world over by exporting our deeply rooted Canadian values abroad. If our values can act as nutrients to the growth of a country such as our own, surely enacting them in our foreign policy and allowing them to guide our future international relations can be of benefit to the global community.

As we act in immediate and necessary co-operation with our allies to attack the threat of terrorism, it is perhaps time to consider how the principles that make us strong might themselves weaken the roots from which such hatred grows.

I will close by raising this fraught question: Is it too soon to debate the history of international relations and foreign policy in a broader context? Is it too soon to enter into dialogue about the responsibilities of each of us as global citizens?

If we are to defeat terrorism we need to discuss and confront the root causes of terrorist activities, namely the inequities that breed discontent. We need to recognize the political and economic disparities that have promoted social, cultural and physical starvation in certain regions of the world. While today we are taking one of the many necessary incremental steps in the battle against terrorism and terrorist activities at home and abroad, we should recognize that this broader question must also be addressed.

In closing I will join what will certainly be a chorus of voices in this place in thanking the many public servants who have worked diligently and quickly to produce the bill. It was a huge undertaking. The bill contains 146 clauses affecting more than 20 acts of parliament. At the conclusion of this debate the all party justice committee will have the formidable task of scrutinizing the bill and quite possibly suggesting solid amendments to have it carried, we hope, unanimously.

I for one have every confidence that each and every member of parliament on the committee will address the legislation with an eye to reaffirming Canadian values and ensuring that our country's renowned respect for diversity and justice is reinforced.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, unlike many of the debates that we have in this place, this is an issue that Canadians are fairly seized with. The number one question that most Canadians would ask is: How will this affect me? Will this bill give broad sweeping police powers to the state and interfere in my everyday activity, or is this a bill that will provide safety and security for me and my family?

It is important that we discuss this bill in the context of both of those questions. Bill C-36 is in fact an anti-terrorist bill. It is not an anti-immigrant bill, anti-refugee bill, anti-Muslim bill, anti-Afghani bill, anti-Pakistani bill, or anti any of those things because if it were it would truly be anti-Canadian. Unfortunately the debate around this entire issue is in some quarters, mostly the media, focused on this aspect.

There have been many times in this place when my friends opposite and I have disagreed, sparred and had vociferous debates. However this is a time when parliamentarians an all sides of the House have shown that their number one concern is for the safety of Canada.

I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition and the other leaders of the opposition, even the leader of the NDP. Even though we may not agree with her particular position on this matter, there is a constituency within Canada that shares her viewpoint. This democratic place called parliament is the place where those kinds of countering viewpoints need to be put forward.

I am interested in some of the suggestions made by the previous speaker regarding sunsetting. There is a section of the bill that requires it to be revisited and redebated in three years time. Whether it is an automatic review in three years or a cancellation of certain policies, unless they are reaffirmed in this place they are all issues that can be fairly and effectively dealt with in committee. They are technical aspects as to whether or not certain search and seizure aspects of the law should be continued or discontinued.

Should there be a wiretap that lasts one year instead of 90 days? Should there be intrusive abilities to monitor situations within this country, abilities that we would probably not have supported on September 10 of this year?

Since September 11 we have had to look at life through a different prism. Canadians are frightened and justifiably so. However, what concerns me is some of the hysteria that has literally thrown gasoline on an open flame.

I refer to recent allegations in the media last week which said that 50 refugees from Afghanistan and Pakistan had been allowed into the country without any security checks whatsoever. I can say that the switchboard, if we want to call it that, in my constituency office lit up. People were concerned and outraged as to how this could happen.

I too was concerned as to how we would allow someone in, particularly today but at any time in our history, without a reasonable security check and so I investigated. What did I find? I found that there was not one refugee from Afghanistan or Pakistan.

On that given day at Pearson airport there were indeed 29 people who applied for refugee status, which is not an unusual occurrence. The largest volume of refugees come through Pearson airport. Each and every one of those people was fingerprinted, photographed, checked through CSIS and cross-checked through the RCMP. No one was allowed to enter the country without a security check.

I will not be critical of anyone in particular in this case. However some members have said that when refugees come to this country and are a security risk or a flight risk, meaning they will not turn up for their hearing, then they should be detained. They are detained if those determinations are made.

I can take anyone who wants to go to a number of motels in the Brampton-Mississauga community that have been acquired as detention centres by the federal government to see families languishing. If there is a problem in our refugee system, and there is, it is in the length of time it takes to process the applications to provide a fair hearing.

We believe that Bill C-11, which will be before the House after it passes through the Senate, would help in that regard because it would allow single person panels instead of the three people needed to hold the hearings now. That should triple the number of hearings and should speed up the process dramatically. That is a case of human rights that need not interfere with this bill or any bill that targets anti-terrorism.

I wholeheartedly support Bill C-36. It is a response that our government has put forward in a timely, thoughtful and well researched way which says to Canadians that the government will fight terrorism with its friends in America, Great Britain and around the world. We will stand united as members of NATO as we have in other conflicts in the world.

A clause was invoked as part of our agreement with NATO known as article 5. Article 5 states that when a member of NATO is attacked all members are attacked. It is an all for one clause. If any Canadian falls through the cracks of discrimination in our zealous attempt to fight terrorism, the attack on that individual Canadian citizen is an attack on all of us. I caution that it can and does happen.

Let me share with the House the experience of a gentleman by the name of Mohamed Abdel-Aziz Attiah who was an engineer on contract with AECL at Chalk River. He was a Canadian citizen for 27 years. He is married to a Canadian citizen and has four children born in Canada. He moved from Mississauga to work at the Chalk River facility.

He was interviewed recently by CSIS and the RCMP for 90 minutes after which there were no charges, but because his name was Mohamed Abdel-Aziz Attiah they remained suspicious. They were concerned about security. There were no charges laid against the individual but after he went out for lunch and arrived back at the facility that he had worked at for some time, and at which he was being offered a permanent position, he found that his security card had been cancelled with no explanation and no reason. Today he languishes without a job, without an income and with a wife and four children, trying to understand.

Is it because of his name and heritage that he was fired? He asks what he did wrong. They trusted him before September 11. He wants to know why they do not trust him now. Is it because his name is Mohamed?

I know no one in this place would support that, yet it is a current case. It is an unjust case and in passing an anti-terrorism bill we must ensure that people like Mohamed and others are not discriminated against. This is not McCarthyism in the 1950s. It is clearly a united attack against terrorism that can come in any nationality, any skin colour and from anywhere in the world, even right here in Canada.

[Jim Gouk, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 4 the Minister of Transport appeared before the transport committee. In the course of his opening presentation he referred to a ministerial directive he had written requesting that cockpit doors of Canadian aircraft be locked for the duration of the flight.

I advised him I had flown on Canadian aircraft since the time the directive had apparently been written and had seen cockpit doors open on several occasions. The minister's response to that was that “On the question of cockpit doors, I have to say that if you have been on flights where this is the case, you have an obligation as a member of parliament to report that to me or my officials, the date, the time”.

I further asked the minister if he would be willing to table any ministerial directives issued to the department on airport security since September 11. His response to this request was as follows, that “Most government documents are available under access to information. If we can make them available to you, we will”.

That is not acceptable. On one hand the minister is stating that I have an obligation as a member of parliament to report any observations I make that contravene his directives. On the other hand he is advising me that I would have to rely on access to information to find out what that directive is. This is not unlike the situation that occurred in the case of Bill C-36 which is now before the House. The government provided information to the media before providing that same information to MPs.

In the case of the minister's departmental directives, he states that we need to report observed breaches of his directives without ever having been informed by the government of their existence. In such cases we are to rely on material acquired from access to information, and if we are, how are we to know that the material even exists to ask for or what we are supposed to ask for? Does the minister expect us to rely on reports in the media, which is how we got our initial information on Bill C-36?

I submit that the minister, by creating directives which he then claims MPs have an obligation to be in compliance with and by not providing those directives to MPs, has caused a breach of parliamentary privilege in that he has created an obligation for specific performance by MPs and then prevented MPs from fulfilling that obligation.

I ask that this be remedied by requiring the Minister of Transport to table all ministerial directives issued to his department on airport security since September 11.

Anti-terrorism Act

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, a short version of that is more money but when.

Certain provisions of Bill C-36 raised questions regarding the overextension of ministerial discretion. The bill allows the minister to authorize actions which could be subject to abuse. There are broad powers to limit public access and possibly civil rights.

Will the minister commit today to include not only a fixed sunset clause but also an oversight committee that we likely have in CSIS and the RCMP to avoid political interference and to avoid the possible undermining of political or police impartiality?