Bill C-36 (Historical)

Anti-terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism

Privilege

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time today with the member for Kitchener--Waterloo. A few weeks ago following the terrorist attacks in New York City on September 11 we met in the House to debate a motion that called on our government to introduce anti-terrorism legislation as soon as possible. I am pleased to see that the minister and her staff have been able to respond this quickly.

I want to express my strong support for Bill C-36, a made in Canada legislative response to the problems of terrorism. It is a response that we hope will be effective, while being drawn up in such a way as to be respectful of the constitutionality of the protected rights of Canadians.

This legislation gives expression to our common resolve as Canadians to ensure that those persons who plan or direct terrorist attacks and those persons and entities that play a role in supporting them financially, or otherwise provide them with the material support which facilitates such acts, are denounced as criminals and brought to justice no matter where they may be found.

Canadians believe that all acts of terrorism are criminal and unjustifiable and that they should be condemned as such. We are confident that by enacting such legislation we are joining other like minded countries around the world in efforts to prevent the commission of similar crimes in the future.

Canadians would agree that the objective of enacting effective anti-terrorism legislation is laudable and necessary. Canadians would also want us to reflect in a sober and critical fashion on the nature of such legislation. I do not believe they would agree that it is necessary to abandon our values, which make Canada a free and democratic society, to fight terrorism.

I am pleased that the preamble to the bill contains language through which parliament recognizes that the requirements of national security and the need to combat global terrorism must be carried out with due regard to the rights and freedoms guaranteed in the Canadian charter so that we can be true to the values of our society even as we battle this terrible thing.

Canada has worked in concert with the international community for many years to pursue initiatives that are intended to reduce the threat posed by international terrorists. It should be noted that Canadian diplomats played a leading role in the negotiation of the two most recent international counterterrorism conventions, namely the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombing and the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism.

I want to comment on the specific aspects of Bill C-36. When the Canadian government signed these international counterterrorism agreements it was seen as a commitment by Canada to move toward their ratification at some time in the future. Unfortunately that time has arrived.

The draft legislation contains measures that would allow Canada to implement three international conventions, two of which concern the fight against terrorism. The most recent of these is the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism, which would outlaw fundraising activities in support of terrorism and create provisions for the seizure and forfeiture of the assets belonging to the terrorists or placed at their disposal.

It would also give effect to United Nations security council resolution 1373 of September 28 that requires all states to take action to prevent and suppress terrorist financing.

Bill C-36 contains measures to implement the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings that Canada signed in 1998 in response to an increase in recent years of terrorist attacks directed against civilian and government targets by means of explosive devices or biological and chemical substances. In one of these indiscriminate attacks in November 1996 a Canadian woman was killed in a terrorist bombing of a Paris subway station.

The bill would implement the convention on the safety of United Nations and associated personnel. While this convention is not regarded as a counterterrorism agreement it does cover acts of violence directed against the official premises, private accommodation or means of transportation of United Nations or associated personnel. It recognizes that there is a need for appropriate and effective measures to prevent attacks against the United Nations and associated personnel.

The implementation of each of these conventions requires amendments to the criminal code to ensure that the crimes identified in each of these agreements are offences under our law and to extend the jurisdiction of Canadian courts over terrorist activities abroad.

A person alleged to have committed a convention crime abroad may be prosecuted in Canada if after the commission of the offence he or she is found in Canada and is not extradited to another state that could also claim jurisdiction over the offence.

Similarly under the amendments proposed in Bill C-36 a person responsible for a terrorist bombing of a public transportation system in another country in which a Canadian was killed or injured could be extradited to Canada to stand trial here for that offence.

Canada has taken these steps to ensure that terrorists are brought to justice by effectively denying them sanctuary after the commission of a terrorist crime. There should be no safe havens for terrorists. The terrorist attacks in the cities of New York and Washington on September 11 demonstrated to all of us that there is an urgent need for the international community to act together in concert to ensure that each has effective legislation in place to choke off fundraising efforts for terrorists and to enact the necessary legislation to implement the entire series of international and anti-terrorism agreements.

I congratulate the Minister of Justice and all those who worked so hard and so very quickly to bring forth Bill C-36. Bill C-36 contains the additional measures that our law enforcement and security services require to meet the threat posed by terrorism. It is simultaneously focused, effective, broad reaching and reflective of Canadian values.

Members will have an opportunity to do some work on the bill in the justice committee. There are issues that we all share. For example, should there be a sunset clause? How do we protect against abuse of powers? These are issues that will certainly be dealt with in committee.

It will also provide the opportunity for all of us in the House to air our concerns and to make sure the legislation gives the authorities the tools they need to protect the civil rights of all Canadians.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to participate in the important debate on Bill C-36, the government's anti-terrorism act.

There is without question deep concern among Canadians across the country about the horrific acts that took place on September 11. As we begin to come to terms with what happened and determine what kind of responses there need to be, we in the New Democratic Party have stated clearly every day in the House that our response should be undertaken through the United Nations and in accordance with international law. It should be a response that promotes peace and justice rather than further violence and militarism. The NDP has articulated that position very well even if it is not popular to do so these days.

In addressing the bill before us today in terms of the measures we are prepared to take and the powers we should confer upon law enforcement agencies, there may be a rush to get the legislation through. However it is incumbent upon us as members of parliament and upholders of the public interest to have a sober analysis and review of the bill.

I have heard a lot of talk in the House today that the bill would provide the necessary tools to law enforcement agencies. A lot of members have remarked on that. I and my colleagues in the NDP want to make sure those tools do not become sledgehammers that undermine or crush civil liberties and freedoms.

In speaking to the bill we must be circumspect. We must be thoughtful and look at what its impact would be not only in the short term but in the long term. I have been reading through various opinions of experts and lawyers and look forward to the opinions of witnesses who will go to the committee. One opinion in particular struck me. The president of the Ontario Criminal Lawyers’ Association was quoted in the media today as saying that to turn Canada into a police state in the name of liberty is bizarre.

As we examine the bill we must look at each and every clause to ensure that the broad powers and measures it contains will be used in a way that ensures continued public accountability, transparency and due process of law.

There was an interesting article in the Globe and Mail today which said that most Canadians would not be terribly inconvenienced by the justice minister's proposals. It said the costs would instead be borne by people who find themselves targets of police suspicion because of their ethnic background, radical political views or association with immigrant communities that have ties with groups deemed to be terrorist fronts.

It was an interesting commentary. It may well be that most Canadians support the legislation because they do not see that it would have an impact on them. They see it as powerful tool to deal with their legitimate fears about terrorist attacks.

However we must examine what the measures are and how they would be applied. One thing I am concerned about is how the measures in the act would be targeted to certain groups in our society. Are there adequate protections in the bill to ensure that the strong measures and broad powers it contains will be targeted, as the member for London West has said, to people who are engaged in terrorist activities and not merely members of this or that group? Will the legislation have an application and political weight that begins to take on a broader net?

Today in the House during question period I raised the issue of students from other countries who come to Canada to study. It has been confirmed by the RCMP that such students are being questioned and investigated, particularly if they are in engineering or scientific programs and courses. While there may be reason to do this, why do we single out a group of people based on their ethnic background, country of origin or what they are studying? This may have an important impact on Canadian students of colour who may be of Arabic background or Muslim students who begin to feel they are being targeted in some way.

This is disturbing. A commentary in the Globe and Mail said that many of us will not be inconvenienced by the act. It said we will go about our business as usual and not feel targeted in any way. Given the backlash that has already taken place in the country we must be terribly concerned about the bill's impact in terms of targeting visible minorities, political activists or even labour activists.

I will focus on three specific areas of Bill C-36. As others have mentioned, it is a massive bill. It contains about 170 pages and 146 clauses. None of us have had time yet to go through it thoroughly. We hope that will happen at committee. However it struck me that there are three things we must look at carefully in terms of the balance between our need to protect civil liberties under the charter of rights and freedoms and our need to protect safety and security.

First, the definition of terrorist activity concerns me. Bill C-36 defines a terrorist activity as an action in or outside Canada that is taken or threatened for political, religious or ideological purposes and threatens the public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing substantial property damage that is likely to seriously harm people, or interfering with or disrupting an essential service, facility or system.

The definition is carefully circumscribed to make it clear that disrupting an essential service is not a terrorist activity if it occurs during a lawful protest or work strike and is not intended to cause serious harm to persons. The Minister of Justice addressed this in the House today when she was asked about it.

However we must closely examine this definition of terrorist activity and ask a substantive question: Have activities taken place in Canada that could be characterized as terrorist activities under the proposed legislation? There are several that come to mind.

Recently in B.C. members of a health care union participated in illegal strike activity. They walked out on a rotating basis. It was not a lawful protest or work strike as defined in the legislation.

This brings to mind that even Canada has historically developed anti-trust laws which were meant to prevent corporate monopolies from controlling goods and services but which in actual fact were used against labour unions to prevent them from organizing. The anti-trust laws were used against unions to take away people's right to organize.

These historical references are very important. I have a very serious concern about the definition that is being used. While I appreciate the fact that the government lawyers and the government side have gone to some lengths to try to come up with a definition that is specific, it seems to me that the way it is written is very problematic. It raises the question with me as to how broadly that could be applied.

I, along with my colleagues, participated in Quebec City at the summit of the Americas. We participated in the protests. To reiterate the remarks of our House leader in debate earlier today, he made it quite clear when he said that lawful sounds good, but there were a lot of young people who thought they were engaged in lawful protest in Quebec City way beyond the perimeter who did not challenge the wall or engage in property damage or anything like that. There were people who did participate in other forms of more direct action. How would those activities be characterized under the legislation, perhaps not in the next few months or in the next year, but what about several years from now, or if this legislation is still around, a decade from now? The definition of terrorist activity is of much concern.

Second, the other area I have a lot of concerns about is the whole notion of preventive arrest. This is something that is quite a new feature in terms of Canadian law and gives enormous powers to law enforcement agencies to arrest and detain people on the suspicion that they are about to commit a terrorist activity. While on the one hand I think that may make people feel safe and secure, it is demanded of us as parliamentarians to ask what kinds of protections there will be in this legislation to ensure that this very broad power is not abused and that people are not simply picked up willy-nilly all over the place for whatever activity might be deemed to be suspicious or somehow related to a terrorist activity. As I say, these are only a few of the things that jumped out at me as I read through the bill in a very summary way.

Third, there is the whole notion of an investigative hearing. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that this is really very new in Canadian legal undertakings, this idea that the police could compel persons to come forward with information before a judge even though they may not themselves be charged with something or they may not know what investigation is underway. In fact one senior federal official was quoted as saying that we remove the right to silence. To me this was another flag going up in terms of how and how broadly that would be applied.

Those are three areas that I think are very problematic with this bill. The other aspect I wanted to speak on is the permanency of the bill. I listened to the news last night and heard the comments made by Mr. Clayton Ruby, a very well known criminal lawyer and advocate of civil rights in Canada. I think he is an outstanding member of the legal community. I was very interested to hear his remarks. He reminded us of our history in terms of when legislation like this is brought in how permanent it will be.

Presumably it is permanent. We know it will go through a review in three years, but even when our House leader today raised the possibility of the notion of having a sunset clause, it seemed to me that the government was very reluctant to respond to that and basically shuffled it aside.

Mr. Ruby basically characterized this legislation as war measures legislation. I do believe we have to look at our history. We have to look at what it is that we are embarking upon. This weekend in Ottawa at the federal council of the New Democratic Party we had a very extensive debate about what took place on September 11, what the party's position has been and what it should say as events continue to unfold. I will quote part of the resolution that was passed by our federal council and brought forward by our international affairs committee.

The resolution states:

--at this critical time it is very important that Canadians be vigilant to protect against unwarranted attacks on fundamental civil liberties and human rights as part of the comprehensive response to terrorist attacks, bearing in mind the history of internment of Japanese Canadians and the proclamation of the War Measures Act in similar circumstances.

I can already hear some people asking why we would drag that up, saying that this is a different situation, but I really wonder if it is. Again, I believe it is incumbent upon us as members of the House who uphold the public interest to look at our history and consider that when these actions were taken, the War Measures Act, the internment of Japanese Canadians, there was also a political climate of wanting to take strong retaliatory action. In hindsight now, in the one case 50 years ago and the other case 30 years ago, there is a serious questioning as to whether or not those particular policies were things that actually needed to be done. I suppose we can say that hindsight is always perfect and we can always look for ways to criticize something that was done.

However, surely we can learn by examining the legislation that took place then and what its impact was on civil society and civil rights, and the singling out of identifiable people, in one instance Canadians of Japanese origin and in the other instance political activists. Our whole society was impacted by that in a very negative way.

I took Mr. Ruby's comments very much to heart as a sobering reflection on what the House is poised to do in terms of bringing in the legislation, which from all that we have been given to understand, will be permanent. What impact will that have on our civil liberties in the longer term? What kinds of powers are we giving to law enforcement agencies that will begin to turn us more and more into a society where more control is given to law enforcement agencies?

Some people may argue that is good and that is the price of fighting terrorism, but I think we have to examine that. We have to weigh that balance between civil liberties and the need for security. We have to ensure that we do protect civil liberties and rights and freedoms in Canada.

The Prime Minister said yesterday that he was genuinely interested in hearing amendments and feedback as this goes through committee. I hope that is true because to remove the protection for civil liberties is something that we are possibly on the brink of doing.

I have serious reservations about the bill. As it continues to go through committee some of those issues will come forward. I hope that members of the House will not be in such a rush to pass this legislation that will deeply offend the basic values of democracy and civil liberties in Canada in order to do what they believe is politically expedient and because there is public concern in regard to passing legislation.

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Hamilton West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the introduction of Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, stands as the fulfilment of the government's continued commitment to combating terrorism, a commitment that we have practised since our election and which was exemplified in our capacity to respond immediately to the horrific events of September 11.

To further extend the response capability and capacity of our country, we have introduced the bill with the intent to provide further tools to our law enforcement and national security agencies. The bill would aid in the task of rooting out terrorist organizations, and that will curtail future threats to the health and well-being of our citizens.

As such, the proposed act, while extending the powers of our security agencies to combat hate crimes, is consistent with and predicated on the word and spirit of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

It is of central importance that while finding an appropriate response to the current situation we act in accordance with the principles and values for which this country stands and which, as representatives of our respective communities, we must uphold.

Bill C-36 is designed to help us do exactly that. The new anti-terrorism plan has four key objectives: to stop terrorists from entering our country and to protect Canadians from terrorist acts; to bring forward tools to identify and prosecute terrorists; to prevent our borders from being held hostage; and to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and impact the root causes of such hatred.

The bill would help protect our borders economically and, just as important, it would protect the principles of openness and acceptance that are fundamental to the Canadian spirit. These are difficult times that require difficult decisions.

I have a message for my constituents in Hamilton West and my fellow Canadians. It is for them to go about their daily business and their daily lives as usual, to understand that we must now live in a state of heightened awareness. The bill is a response to and an expression of that heightened awareness.

In the fight against terrorism, there are many weapons in the Canadian arsenal. Some of these weapons are legislative, such as the bill before us today and some include the skills and commitment of our local and national security agencies and the capacity of our armed forces.

However there is another weapon that is often overlooked. It is the strong character of our country's pride in our commitment to cultural diversity. With this pride resides the confidence that hatred and violence will never find a home here in Canada.

It is from the wellspring of this pride that our Prime Minister recently asserted that “Canada will not use the justification of national security to abandon our cherished values of freedom and tolerance. We will not fall into the trap of exclusion”.

One of our country's most enviable features is its reputation as a land where individuals are free to practise their cultural activities and commitments as they see fit, a land where peace loving individuals from around the globe can come together in friendship and share their rich and diverse traditions. No other country can claim the same degree of success or commitment to multiculturalism.

It was back in 1971 that the Liberal government of the Right Hon. Pierre Trudeau made Canada the first country in the world to adopt an official policy of multiculturalism. We cannot doubt that in such multiplicity we as a nation are made strong. However we must also not doubt that our commitments to strength through diversity are also in danger of being hijacked by the purveyors of hatred and terror.

In my remarks to worshippers at a Hamilton mosque last week I said “I am proud to be the son of an immigrant. My father is proud to call himself Canadian”.

We are collectively a nation of many diverse cultures brought together by a common goal of peaceful coexistence and equality.

We must under no circumstances allow the world's terror merchants to export their hatred to Canada. We must not allow them to undermine the mutual respect that Canadians of all faiths and backgrounds have nurtured for 150 years. We have worked diligently to firmly establish the basic principles, values and shared beliefs that hold us together as Canadians.

In the wake of the tragic events of September 11 it is important; no, it is absolutely necessary, for Canadians to reaffirm the fundamental values of our charter of rights and freedoms: the equality of individuals of every culture, religion and ethnic origin. Our way of life and system of values has made us proud of our country and provided us a tremendous bounty of freedom, tolerance and justice.

It behoves us to protect ourselves through an awareness of what is at stake in our response to recent events. We could inflict damage on terrorists the world over by exporting our deeply rooted Canadian values abroad. If our values can act as nutrients to the growth of a country such as our own, surely enacting them in our foreign policy and allowing them to guide our future international relations can be of benefit to the global community.

As we act in immediate and necessary co-operation with our allies to attack the threat of terrorism, it is perhaps time to consider how the principles that make us strong might themselves weaken the roots from which such hatred grows.

I will close by raising this fraught question: Is it too soon to debate the history of international relations and foreign policy in a broader context? Is it too soon to enter into dialogue about the responsibilities of each of us as global citizens?

If we are to defeat terrorism we need to discuss and confront the root causes of terrorist activities, namely the inequities that breed discontent. We need to recognize the political and economic disparities that have promoted social, cultural and physical starvation in certain regions of the world. While today we are taking one of the many necessary incremental steps in the battle against terrorism and terrorist activities at home and abroad, we should recognize that this broader question must also be addressed.

In closing I will join what will certainly be a chorus of voices in this place in thanking the many public servants who have worked diligently and quickly to produce the bill. It was a huge undertaking. The bill contains 146 clauses affecting more than 20 acts of parliament. At the conclusion of this debate the all party justice committee will have the formidable task of scrutinizing the bill and quite possibly suggesting solid amendments to have it carried, we hope, unanimously.

I for one have every confidence that each and every member of parliament on the committee will address the legislation with an eye to reaffirming Canadian values and ensuring that our country's renowned respect for diversity and justice is reinforced.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, unlike many of the debates that we have in this place, this is an issue that Canadians are fairly seized with. The number one question that most Canadians would ask is: How will this affect me? Will this bill give broad sweeping police powers to the state and interfere in my everyday activity, or is this a bill that will provide safety and security for me and my family?

It is important that we discuss this bill in the context of both of those questions. Bill C-36 is in fact an anti-terrorist bill. It is not an anti-immigrant bill, anti-refugee bill, anti-Muslim bill, anti-Afghani bill, anti-Pakistani bill, or anti any of those things because if it were it would truly be anti-Canadian. Unfortunately the debate around this entire issue is in some quarters, mostly the media, focused on this aspect.

There have been many times in this place when my friends opposite and I have disagreed, sparred and had vociferous debates. However this is a time when parliamentarians an all sides of the House have shown that their number one concern is for the safety of Canada.

I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition and the other leaders of the opposition, even the leader of the NDP. Even though we may not agree with her particular position on this matter, there is a constituency within Canada that shares her viewpoint. This democratic place called parliament is the place where those kinds of countering viewpoints need to be put forward.

I am interested in some of the suggestions made by the previous speaker regarding sunsetting. There is a section of the bill that requires it to be revisited and redebated in three years time. Whether it is an automatic review in three years or a cancellation of certain policies, unless they are reaffirmed in this place they are all issues that can be fairly and effectively dealt with in committee. They are technical aspects as to whether or not certain search and seizure aspects of the law should be continued or discontinued.

Should there be a wiretap that lasts one year instead of 90 days? Should there be intrusive abilities to monitor situations within this country, abilities that we would probably not have supported on September 10 of this year?

Since September 11 we have had to look at life through a different prism. Canadians are frightened and justifiably so. However, what concerns me is some of the hysteria that has literally thrown gasoline on an open flame.

I refer to recent allegations in the media last week which said that 50 refugees from Afghanistan and Pakistan had been allowed into the country without any security checks whatsoever. I can say that the switchboard, if we want to call it that, in my constituency office lit up. People were concerned and outraged as to how this could happen.

I too was concerned as to how we would allow someone in, particularly today but at any time in our history, without a reasonable security check and so I investigated. What did I find? I found that there was not one refugee from Afghanistan or Pakistan.

On that given day at Pearson airport there were indeed 29 people who applied for refugee status, which is not an unusual occurrence. The largest volume of refugees come through Pearson airport. Each and every one of those people was fingerprinted, photographed, checked through CSIS and cross-checked through the RCMP. No one was allowed to enter the country without a security check.

I will not be critical of anyone in particular in this case. However some members have said that when refugees come to this country and are a security risk or a flight risk, meaning they will not turn up for their hearing, then they should be detained. They are detained if those determinations are made.

I can take anyone who wants to go to a number of motels in the Brampton-Mississauga community that have been acquired as detention centres by the federal government to see families languishing. If there is a problem in our refugee system, and there is, it is in the length of time it takes to process the applications to provide a fair hearing.

We believe that Bill C-11, which will be before the House after it passes through the Senate, would help in that regard because it would allow single person panels instead of the three people needed to hold the hearings now. That should triple the number of hearings and should speed up the process dramatically. That is a case of human rights that need not interfere with this bill or any bill that targets anti-terrorism.

I wholeheartedly support Bill C-36. It is a response that our government has put forward in a timely, thoughtful and well researched way which says to Canadians that the government will fight terrorism with its friends in America, Great Britain and around the world. We will stand united as members of NATO as we have in other conflicts in the world.

A clause was invoked as part of our agreement with NATO known as article 5. Article 5 states that when a member of NATO is attacked all members are attacked. It is an all for one clause. If any Canadian falls through the cracks of discrimination in our zealous attempt to fight terrorism, the attack on that individual Canadian citizen is an attack on all of us. I caution that it can and does happen.

Let me share with the House the experience of a gentleman by the name of Mohamed Abdel-Aziz Attiah who was an engineer on contract with AECL at Chalk River. He was a Canadian citizen for 27 years. He is married to a Canadian citizen and has four children born in Canada. He moved from Mississauga to work at the Chalk River facility.

He was interviewed recently by CSIS and the RCMP for 90 minutes after which there were no charges, but because his name was Mohamed Abdel-Aziz Attiah they remained suspicious. They were concerned about security. There were no charges laid against the individual but after he went out for lunch and arrived back at the facility that he had worked at for some time, and at which he was being offered a permanent position, he found that his security card had been cancelled with no explanation and no reason. Today he languishes without a job, without an income and with a wife and four children, trying to understand.

Is it because of his name and heritage that he was fired? He asks what he did wrong. They trusted him before September 11. He wants to know why they do not trust him now. Is it because his name is Mohamed?

I know no one in this place would support that, yet it is a current case. It is an unjust case and in passing an anti-terrorism bill we must ensure that people like Mohamed and others are not discriminated against. This is not McCarthyism in the 1950s. It is clearly a united attack against terrorism that can come in any nationality, any skin colour and from anywhere in the world, even right here in Canada.

[Jim Gouk, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 4 the Minister of Transport appeared before the transport committee. In the course of his opening presentation he referred to a ministerial directive he had written requesting that cockpit doors of Canadian aircraft be locked for the duration of the flight.

I advised him I had flown on Canadian aircraft since the time the directive had apparently been written and had seen cockpit doors open on several occasions. The minister's response to that was that “On the question of cockpit doors, I have to say that if you have been on flights where this is the case, you have an obligation as a member of parliament to report that to me or my officials, the date, the time”.

I further asked the minister if he would be willing to table any ministerial directives issued to the department on airport security since September 11. His response to this request was as follows, that “Most government documents are available under access to information. If we can make them available to you, we will”.

That is not acceptable. On one hand the minister is stating that I have an obligation as a member of parliament to report any observations I make that contravene his directives. On the other hand he is advising me that I would have to rely on access to information to find out what that directive is. This is not unlike the situation that occurred in the case of Bill C-36 which is now before the House. The government provided information to the media before providing that same information to MPs.

In the case of the minister's departmental directives, he states that we need to report observed breaches of his directives without ever having been informed by the government of their existence. In such cases we are to rely on material acquired from access to information, and if we are, how are we to know that the material even exists to ask for or what we are supposed to ask for? Does the minister expect us to rely on reports in the media, which is how we got our initial information on Bill C-36?

I submit that the minister, by creating directives which he then claims MPs have an obligation to be in compliance with and by not providing those directives to MPs, has caused a breach of parliamentary privilege in that he has created an obligation for specific performance by MPs and then prevented MPs from fulfilling that obligation.

I ask that this be remedied by requiring the Minister of Transport to table all ministerial directives issued to his department on airport security since September 11.

Anti-terrorism Act

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, a short version of that is more money but when.

Certain provisions of Bill C-36 raised questions regarding the overextension of ministerial discretion. The bill allows the minister to authorize actions which could be subject to abuse. There are broad powers to limit public access and possibly civil rights.

Will the minister commit today to include not only a fixed sunset clause but also an oversight committee that we likely have in CSIS and the RCMP to avoid political interference and to avoid the possible undermining of political or police impartiality?

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, would provide police officers with sweeping new powers that need to be properly understood in order to ensure that the rights of Canadians are protected. This will mean the retraining of thousands of police officers across the country.

With many of these officers working for cities, municipalities and towns that are already cash-strapped due to federal downloading, will the solicitor general please tell us when he intends to announce the details of this retraining and how he intends to pay for it?

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Yes, gangsterism. The bill defines terrorist activity by referring to conventions. About terrorism or terrorist activity it says that it is as an act committed for “a political, religious or ideological purpose”, which threatens the public and national security because it “is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to a person”, “to endanger a person's life”, “to cause substantial property damage”, and might “cause serious bodily harm” as a result of “serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system”.

This is just one part of the definition. I did not mention the ten conventions that make reference to certain definitions of what may constitute a terrorist activity.

Just the part of the definition that I mentioned deserves a closer look. More than ten or fifteen minutes are necessary before adopting this clause. Experts are required, and no one in this House has the expertise to really be able to say whether or not this is going too far.

There may be members who have some expertise, but it is tinted by the party line of their political formations, and that includes myself, so outside experts are required to take a hard look at these definitions and tell us if we are right to be concerned about a possible violation of certain freedoms.

We could discuss this issue for a long time. I could talk about such a bill for hours, but since time is always a consideration I will deal with the core of the issue.

Another point that raises concerns is the whole question of electronic surveillance. Under the criminal code it is possible to use electronic surveillance by obtaining a warrant if surveillance is carried out for a specific time period, but the person being monitored must subsequently be informed of the fact.

Now all of this has been turned upside down. The monitoring period has been extended. The minister now has direct input. It will all be very vague. The way it will really operate is unclear. We do not know what limits there will be.

When more powers are granted to the police, as is the case here, whether it be preventive arrests, arrests without a warrant, or the Attorney General of Canada suspending the Access to Information Act whenever he pleases if he believes that national security is threatened and there is no one to oversee what he is doing, no one to question the minister's decision, this is of concern to me.

The fact that this law would not be reviewed for three years is also cause for concern in my opinion.

Why does the minister, and this is the question I asked her yesterday in the House, not promise to have this law reviewed or make it possible to have this law reviewed by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights after one year?

With everything that is happening on the national and international scene, I am convinced that following its adoption Bill C-36 will be more or less widely applied throughout Canada, depending on the case.

Over the course of the year, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights could properly examine what has been done and determine if there has been any abuses. What we need to keep in mind is that we must prevent any abuse in applying exceptional legislation such as this.

As I have run out of time, I am prepared to answer any questions.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that parliament has before it, as we often say, an exceedingly important bill. I really think it is the most important bill the House of Commons will pass. This bill responds to an event that occurred on September 11 and to much more than that as well. The bill, the way it is drafted at the moment, goes perhaps a bit too far.

Let me explain. If there is one thing we must make sure of it is that the House does not improvise in passing the bill, not with a bill like this one. We must take time to examine every angle of the bill. As many people as possible and the experts must be consulted in order to produce a law that meets our objective of fighting terrorism effectively.

The attacks on New York and Washington must certainly not change anything in the way we live and do things in Canada, but neither, given that the laws are passed here, must anything be changed in Quebec's approach either. To succeed in getting us to change and alter our practices would be the supreme victory for the terrorists. They would know we are afraid and would change the way we live and deprive our fellow citizens of their freedoms in exchange for security on paper.

In our reactions and attitudes we must look primarily for balance between heightened security measures and the need to keep freedom in the central and vital space it occupies in our society. We must protect ourselves, but we must also be aware of the fact that liberty will always be fragile whatever we do and whatever legislation we may pass in this House so long as there are men and women prepared to die for a cause and through hatred. No legislation will be able to stop them.

We can, however, have legislation that will enable us to prevent attacks such as the those that have recently taken place. We can have a bill that will help us gather information on terrorists, on the people we really want to target with such a piece of legislation, but caution is required.

We must not have just any old law to stop such people. Legislation is needed, but not at the expense of our collective and individual rights and freedoms. Sacrificing our freedom would in fact be capitulation, because freedom is, more than anything else, what defines life in a democracy. The choices we will be making are not, therefore, only choices for security, they are choices for society. Such choices, informed choices, cannot be made overnight. A sense of balance must inform our analysis of Bill C-36.

At the present time, looked at as a whole I believe the bill's purpose is laudable. The bill as a whole will be applied in conjunction with other existing Canadian statutes. The criminal code will continue to apply, as will the anti-gang legislation. Hon. members will recall that Bill C-24, now in the other place awaiting royal assent, enables police officers to commit illegal acts.

With the anti-gang legislation and this bill, Bill C-36, which amends over 20 Canadian statutes and a series of regulations, the powers of the police force appear out of balance with the liberties we enjoy.

I know it is not mentioned in the bill, but at some point the police, thanks to the anti-gang legislation, will be able to commit illegal acts under the law and perhaps break it. This was certainly not the government's aim, but we must not lose sight of the fact that these two laws apply concurrently. Neither blocks the other.

By allowing a police officer to act illegally under Bill C-24, we cannot be sure he will not use this part of the act to do things that are illegal under Bill C-36. Yet he would be justified in doing so for purposes of national security. Is this just rhetoric on my part? I hope so.

I do not think it is rhetoric to say that because it is important to watch what is going on and to try to produce the best legislation. I think this is what the people of Canada and Quebec expect of us.

A look at the federal government's anti-terrorism plan and its objectives reveals four major objectives. There is no reason to oppose them. Perhaps the way it goes about achieving them in the legislation gives us the right, in a country like ours, to question them.

The first objective is to prevent terrorists from entering Canada and to protect Canadians against acts of terrorism. I have no problem with this objective. I would certainly not defend the terrorists or say that their rights were protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I was saying on the subject of gangsterism and organized crime, that it is not true the charter exists to protect them. I say the same thing about terrorists. However, the rights and freedoms honest people enjoy at the moment must not be denied them.

The second objective involves providing the tools to identify terrorists, bring them to justice, sentence them and punish them. This needs no explanation and there is no doubt that we support this objective.

The third objective is to prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being taken hostage by terrorists, which would have repercussions on the Canadian economy. That is obvious. Moreover, this is not the first time the Bloc Quebecois has questioned the work being done by customs officials on the borders of Canada and Quebec.

As far as money laundering is concerned, for at least five or six years now the Bloc Quebecois has been saying over and over that the borders between Canada and the United States are as full of holes as a sieve and that Canada enjoys the wonderful international reputation of being a country where money laundering is easy and where there may be the least monitoring of this.

I know that this is being corrected. I know that we have not been a voice crying out unheard in the wilderness for those five or six years. I know that the government has amended some laws in response to overtures by the Bloc Quebecois. I know that as far as Bill C-36 is concerned the criminal code is also being amended, with a far more specific objective: terrorist groups. This is a good thing.

I do not, however, think that the wake up call of the events of September 11 was necessary for this to happen. Actions could have been taken back when we started talking about the situation, back when we began to address the problem represented by Canadian customs and the Canada-U.S. border.

The final objective is to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and address the root causes of their hatred.

We can see that these are four praiseworthy objectives. On that basis one could not be opposed to a bill to implement provisions to attain those objectives.

However, the questions that arise have to do with the text we have before us. The bill is more than 170 pages in length and contains dozens, even hundreds, of amended sections and expanded definitions regarding the threat to national security among other things. There are increased powers conferred to some members of the cabinet. The Minister of Justice, the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of National Defence would all have increased powers when it comes to electronic surveillance, for example. They would be able to decide if an individual will be monitored. It is the minister who would be responsible for the final decision. Have they gone too far? That is a tough question.

Are we asking enough tough questions? I hope that the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and I emphasize the words human rights, will do just that in a calm manner with all the time it needs and that this bill will be carefully examined.

If Canada had pursued these four objectives by ratifying international treaties that it has already signed, by making them law, then in all probability I would not be standing here right now giving a 20 minute speech on this subject. In order to attain its four objectives, the government included two conventions in this bill.

The first one is the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism. It freezes terrorists' assets by preventing the use of assets belonging to a person who is involved in terrorist activities and in preventing the provision of property and financial or other related services to terrorists. These measures enable a Federal Court judge to order the freezing or seizure of property used to support terrorist activities.

This is the convention that had been signed but never had force of law in Canada. This convention is included in Bill C-36.

In order to achieve the objectives I outlined earlier, there is no problem with this approach and I applaud the government on this. Indeed, the government should have done this before September 11. This was its responsibility. It failed when it came to implementing the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism.

Frankly, I imagine that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service knew before September 11 that there were people raising funds for terrorism in Canada. I certainly hope it knew. If it did not, I have my doubts about the effectiveness of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. If it did, why was it waiting to tell somebody? If it did pass the information along, why did the solicitor general or the Minister of Justice do nothing when a convention had been signed to that effect? There is a problem somewhere.

The other convention is the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings. This convention contains provisions on the targeting of places of public use, government facilities, infrastructure and transportation systems for attacks using explosives or other lethal devices, including chemical or biological agents.

Here again, I hope that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service was on some sort of trail in Canada while groups were on Canadian soil and had certain similar objectives. It is perhaps not as clear as in the first convention, but I hope that CSIS, with the millions of dollars, close to a billion, which it regularly receives to manage its affairs, had a good idea of what was going on.

These two conventions are therefore implemented by Bill C-36. Once again we have no problem with this.

There is one point about which we have some legitimate concerns and I think that anyone interested in individual and collective rights and freedoms must share those concerns.

A large number of sections in the criminal code are amended and many new ones are added to deal with terrorism.

I invite hon. members to read the definition of terrorist activity; it is not a simple definition. It refers to ten conventions that Canada signed and implemented over the years. It is a definition that makes reference to other sections, to international conventions, to a large number of possibilities.

Terrorism as such is not defined, just like the federal government refused to define the notion of criminal activity--

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from Sarnia--Lambton gave us a pretty good explanation of this legislation. I enjoyed listening to his comments. I am pleased to join the debate today on Bill C-36, which will put the government's anti-terrorism plan into place.

Quite clearly the bill is aimed at terrorist organizations and it seeks to strengthen the investigation, prosecution and prevention of terrorist activities at home and abroad. The bill has two primary objectives: to stop terrorists from getting into Canada and to protect Canadians from terrorist acts.

Canada has been fortunate to have a very peaceful history, unlike our neighbour to the south. September 11 is one more horrible example of that, but it has probably made Canadians question if we will continue to have a peaceful history without threat. We know now that Canada is in a position of being threatened. Our safety and security as a nation and as individual citizens of this nation have been threatened. It is important that the bill be in place to help protect Canadians from any possible terrorist acts.

The bill brings forward the tools necessary to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists. As my colleague from Sarnia--Lambton noted, the bill seeks to prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage or under threat by terrorists, which would have a very deleterious effect on the Canadian economy.

Since I have been working with the Minister for International Trade, this brings home much more clearly the importance of the Canadian--American border in our trading relationship. We see that nowhere more clearly than in southwestern Ontario.

In my home community of London, Ontario, people regularly cross the American border either at Sarnia Port Huron or Windsor-Detroit. It is as simple as going to see a ball game or a hockey game and returning that same evening. Thousands of people cross the border daily to go to work. There is also an enormous amount of trade across those two border points.

We need to reflect on the fact that the twoway trade between Canada and the United States now stands at $1.4 billion every day of the year. We need to reflect on the fact that there are some 250 million crossings at the border by individuals, be it for recreational purpose or work.

It is very important the legislation be in place to restore the confidence that has been somewhat shaken in Canadians and Americans. They want to continue to live in a society that has been free and open. The openness of our border is a good example of that.

Therefore it is very important that all these steps be taken to re-establish the confidence that we normally have had between our two countries, where individuals can travel and move safely across the borders and where business can continue in an unhindered way. The statistics I just mentioned show the enormity of this two way trade. Something like 87% of our exports go to the United States.

The bill creates a situation whereby Canada will be working with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and to address the root causes of such hatred. In that regard I want to put forward a suggestion for the minister's consideration and I intend to take this up with her individually.

This suggestion comes from leaders in my own community, particularly Muslim leaders in London, Ontario, who consistently condemn the terrorist attacks of September 11. They have proposed the idea that perhaps Canada is an ideal country to host an international forum on terrorism. Perhaps we are the perfect country to say that we should, as an international community, gather and discuss the terrorist threat and discuss very basic questions like who is a terrorist and what is the proper definition of a terrorist. There have been some very famous people in history who have been considered terrorists. Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist in his own country and he went on to lead his nation. He is obviously one of the outstanding individuals in history in recent times. This suggestion has some merit. Perhaps Canada would be well advised to take a lead in looking at the whole issue of terrorism and working with our international partners. I am happy to put that suggestion on the record and I will pursue it individually with the appropriate persons.

The proposed anti-terrorism act includes measures to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists. These include: defining and designating terrorist groups and activities to make it easier to prosecute terrorists and those who support them; making it an offence to knowingly participate in or contribute to or facilitate the activities of terrorist groups or to instruct anyone in how to do any of those activities; making it an offence to knowingly harbour a terrorist; creating tougher sentences and parole provisions for terrorist offences; cutting off the financial support of terrorist groups; making it an offence to knowingly collect funds for or contribute funds to any such group. It would also ratify the two UN anti-terrorism conventions, the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism and the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings, as well as the safety of United Nations and associated personnel convention.

I believe Canadians overwhelmingly support the legislation and the need for it. Some valid concerns have been raised. Certainly they have been raised with me, about the fact that we do not slip in a draconian series of measures that would somehow infringe unnecessarily on our rights as individuals. I think the bill strikes the proper balance between the need to fight terrorism and the need to protect of our civil liberties.

The bill has several safeguards which I will mention briefly. There will be a parliamentary review of the anti-terrorism legislation in three years. As the Prime Minister noted in his speech last night, the minister is committed to requesting and supporting such a review sooner if it is deemed to be warranted.

Clearly defining provisions so that they are targeted at terrorists and terrorist groups would allow obviously legitimate political activism and protest which are so much a part of our democracy and which we witness every day outside on the steps and the lawns of parliament. I am very proud as a Canadian that I see those groups. I do not see them as a nuisance. They are here demonstrating peacefully about causes that are important to them. They cover everything from an individual priest here day after day expressing his strong pro-life views to groups like the Falun Gong. They have been out there recently demonstrating about activities they feel are discriminating against them in China.

It is very important that we have this balance and that the safeguards are there. They are important and good safeguards. The burden of proof, the onus, is on the state, as it should be. In other words an individual would still be innocent until proven guilty even if he or she is accused of a terrorist activity. That is fundamental to our democracy.

There are other safeguards built into the legislation that I do not have time to enumerate right now. Suffice it to say that I think the bill is very important.

I know that my constituents overwhelmingly support the bill. My constituents have some concerns about not having this legislation go too far. The bill addresses those concerns very well and I am pleased to support it.

[Roger Gallaway, Liberal, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be dividing my time with the member for London--Fanshawe.

I am pleased to speak about our national response, as embodied in the bill, to the events of September 11. In particular I want to talk about parts 1 through 5 as presented in Bill C-36 because I think Canadians expected, wanted and are supporting a toughening, a codification or a creation of a number of new offences that come as a result of a closer examination of terrorist activity in the world. The world is becoming a much more sophisticated place and the means of creating terrorism and chaos in our society, as we have seen, is happening in new and previously unimagined ways.

From that perspective I think Canadians would support us on parts 1 to 5 and at the same time would expect us to move in tandem with other countries, particularly the G-8 and under the banner of the United Nations, which collectively are moving to eradicate those who would create chaos and who in fact are terrorists.

I would refer to four objectives of the bill, particularly in parts 1 through 5, the criminal provisions of the bill. Those objectives include stopping terrorists from getting into Canada and protecting Canadians from terrorist acts. One is a corollary of the other. Of course to do that police and other security forces need the tools to identify, to prosecute and above all to punish those who would commit these acts.

The third objective would be to prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage by terrorists and impacting on the Canadian economy. As someone who represents a border community, I can say that what occurred on September 11 has had a very direct impact, and not only on our regional, provincial and national economies, but it has had a very tangible result in terms of lines at the border in both directions, outbound and inbound.

Of course the fourth objective is to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and, most important, to address the root causes of such hatred and venom as expressed by these people.

I think there is great support from the Canadian public for the bill, which would define and designate the terrorist groups and their activities. We would make it an offence to knowingly participate or facilitate the activities of terrorist groups. We would make it an offence to knowingly harbour or hide terrorists. We would create tougher sentences for terrorist offences and tougher parole provisions for terrorists.

Cutting off financial support and making that a criminal offence is a very important part of this. Of course as I said at the outset, moving in tandem with other UN signatories to certain provisions and conventions is very important. It is very important that it not be a unilateral action on the part of Canada but in fact a collective action of many countries.

Once again I will say that I think the public knows and expects that we have to make it easier in certain very specific conditions for authorities, those being police forces, the local forces or RCMP or CSIS or whatever, to collect the kind of evidence that is necessary. It is necessary to have electronic surveillance. It is necessary in certain very limited cases to compel disclosure of information that may be held by people. It is also necessary to amend the Canada Evidence Act so that we can collect information and not disclose it in a public forum that would be detrimental to the country.

Canadians are fully supportive of all of those provisions. I also think the bill contains an excellent provision, the three year review provision, because we are caught in the middle of a whole series of events which assume a particular state of mind both nationally and internationally. We do not know the nature, the extent or the duration of this matter, so we have enacted laws which are fitting and proper under the current circumstances. At the same time the three year review allows us to consider the effect of these laws and the conditions in three years' time so that we may determine then whether these laws are enough, too much or not enough. It is very important that laws be considered in a timeframe, both current and short term, but not entrenched forever. In that respect I know that Canadians are quite supportive of this, that they expect it and support it.

What I would now like to talk about is what is referred to as part 6 of the bill because we have heard a great deal of talk about balancing rights, a lot of talk about the charter and a lot of talk about rules of natural justice. I want to point out that part 6 is not about criminal law but civil law. It is about, in this international year of the volunteer, those people who have another element to them, that is, they wish to help others, whether in this country or in other countries. It is about the provision of charitable acts by people in this country to those both in and out of this country. Let us be clear about part 6. It is not about criminal law. It is about civil law and it is about charities.

We have heard a great deal of talk about the rules of natural justice, one of which is this one: Who is my accuser, who is making an accusation against me, what is being said specifically against me and do I have the right to question and to meet that person making the accusation? I point out to members present that part 6 was before the House prior to the summer recess. At that time it was called Bill C-16. It was referred to a committee of the House after first reading. I would point out, far be it from me to say, that it was widely rejected by that committee. It was not a question of one party rejecting it. It was a question of everyone on that committee being disturbed by it.

Some excellent points were made before that committee in terms of what part 6 is about, so as the bill proceeds from the House to the justice committee I would invite the committee to revisit what was said about part 6. All Canadians will support parts 1 to 5, but I think part 6 has some disturbing elements, the principal point being that when one examines that provision one sees that nobody would know who is making the accusation, what specifically is being said or in fact who is saying it. It would be fed through the sieve called CSIS, which would then provide a summary of perhaps what was said, or more properly, of what the allegations were, but little or no detail.

This would have dire consequences for those people in this country with a long tradition of helping others, and this is international year of the volunteer. Part 6 does not meet that fundamental rule of the rules of natural justice, that is, who is making the accusation, what is being said and do I have the right to meet that person and question them?

Finally, I would also point out that part 6 of this law imposes an absolute liability on a charity.

It has nothing to do with anyone's intention. One can imagine some very innocent occurrences where people believe they are doing the right thing when in fact, through misfortune or lack of attention, the money is diverted to somebody who has less than honourable intentions quite innocently by those paying it. Effectively, the result under part 6 would be the end of that charitable cause. That is unfortunate.

When the bill goes to committee, I would ask that the members pay very close attention to part 6 and all the provisions thereof.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for splitting his time. It makes it possible for me to speak earlier in the day rather than later.

I think the government is taking the right step by moving in the direction of introducing Bill C-36. However, as my colleague asked so clearly, why did it take so long? I also recognize that the bill was probably put together very quickly on very short notice. Apparently people seemed to think there was no need to do anything like this.

Now we have legislation that is omnibus in nature and covers a variety of other acts that are to be amended by this bill. Perhaps some of the safeguards that need to be included in the bill have not been thought of or have not been adequately dealt with. I will focus on a couple of them.

I refer to a particular phrase that the hon. minister stated in her address to the House earlier this day. It had to do with dealing with the root causes of hatred. Perhaps the issue here is not so much hatred as it is fear.

What happens in terrorist operations is that terrorists use fear as their weapon. It is one thing to destroy property or to destroy human lives, but hatred is a motivator, as I think we all know and have experienced. It gets the adrenaline flowing.

In the game of hockey adrenaline can really run high. People do not really hate the opposition, but by golly they sure get boiled up every once in a while and sometimes perhaps there is an element of that. When a player can strike fear into and intimidate the opposite team member, the team member will avoid the other player. Damage does not have to be done because the fear is debilitating.

What is happening in our country right now is that we are not acting as perhaps we ought to do. The threat of terrorists is to intimidate to the point where it incapacitates the individual. That is a much more subtle effect than simply destroying someone, because it affects everyone.

It is one thing to take down two towers in the centre of New York City. It had a terrible effect. We feel very sympathetic to the families involved. However it is affecting all of us. It is affecting our celebrations.

On Saturday I was at a wedding ceremony where candles had been ordered to be part of the table setting. They were delayed and got there an hour before the reception was to take place. Why? They had been ordered six months ago. They had been held up because of the September 11 events in New York City.

Every one of us is affected. It does not bother some a great deal, but others are fearful. There are people, for example, today who refuse to get on an airline because of the fear of what will happen to them and whether it is safe to travel. That is the fear I am talking about. That is the effect it has on our economy. I suggest we really look at the effectiveness of terrorist acts at striking fear into the hearts of individuals, rendering them almost incapacitated.

I will move on to another point. The definition of a terrorist act causes me some concern. I do not think I have time to read everything, but I will refer to the overall section referring to an act that is committed:

--in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government, or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada...and that is intended...to cause death...and that is intended to cause serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of lawful advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that does not involve an activity that is intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of the clauses.

The hon. minister took great pains this morning to emphasize this, so I would like to ask the members as well as the committee members who will meet to discuss the bill to consider the example of what happened in Vancouver when the transit system was incapacitated by a strike for more than six months. It was not the express intention of the union or the group of people that brought about the strike to cause severe difficulty, but the strike did so and it was not unknown that it did.

If the intention is the issue but the result is immaterial, I think that to separate them is perhaps misleading. Not only must we intend to do something bad, but if we do something bad whether we intended to or not the act itself becomes a bad one. It is not that this is not what should be done in the act. The caveat here, what ought to be so strong, is that it does not mislead the public and allow certain freedoms to be exercised at the expense of others.

On the balance side of this position is the intrusion, if you will, by the power of the state through its police officers and other peace officers to, on the suspicion or belief that a terrorist act is about to be committed, charge and detain someone without particular evidence in place, to simply put someone aside because it is believed that person will be doing something such as intimidating people or destroying property. In some cases it would be correct and I think the police should have that power, but there ought to be clear safeguards as to what kinds of things would support that belief that someone might engage in such activities.

There are some things in the bill that ought to be fixed. I do not want the minister to go away from this thinking we are totally opposed to the bill. We are not and I certainly am not, but we ought to be very careful about civil liberties and at the same time not open the door to certain other opportunities that might cause us other difficulties.

With the time I have left, I would like to make one more point with regard to the operation of CIDA. This morning a column in the National Post written by Diane Francis makes a very interesting case. She asks the question: Should CIDA, a taxpayer funded organization, support organizations like Minga, which is operating in Colombia?

It is not quite clear. I certainly do not know the details of what is going on there, but the implication of this column is that it is not clear whether Minga is aiding and abetting the operation or the function of three groups: the National Liberation Army, the Revolutionary Armed Force of Colombia or the United Self-Defence Forces of Colombia.

If Minga is in fact doing that, then it actually is in collaboration with organizations that have been put on the list of terrorist organizations by the United States of America. If she is right we ought to take a very careful and serious look at it. I know the bill suggests that we should not fund any terrorist organizations and I am sure the Government of Canada would never think of doing that, but it could be that unless there is a clear and careful audit of how moneys like those from CIDA, for example, are spent and applied such moneys might find their way into organizations such as these.

I really would ask this question and I would ask the minister to ask the Minister of Finance and the minister in charge of CIDA to look at where the money is going, how it is being applied and whether it in fact finds its way indirectly to terrorist organizations.

With that, I would like to suggest that the committee look very carefully at this legislation and that we in parliament support the principle of the legislation, surely, but let us look at the details in such a way as to look after our civil liberties and deal with the real issues.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to participate in the debate on Bill C-36. As I mentioned in the House a number of weeks ago, this debate should have taken place months ago. Although we commend the government for bringing the legislation forward to parliament, we wonder why the government waited such a long time and why it took such an alarming wake up call to mobilize the government into bringing forth these necessary legislative initiatives to immediately ensure the security and safety of Canadians and of our nation, Canada.

On that note I quote an article appearing in yesterday's Toronto Star by James Travers. He said:

As the federal government begins to tear down walls protecting terrorists operating in Canada, it has some dirty little secrets of its own to hide. For years, the Prime Minister's cabinet has been receiving increasingly worrisome reports that this country is a prime and easy target...The evidence is overwhelming that the federal Liberals knew a lot and did very little. In confidential yearly cabinet briefings, in dozens of documents sent to specific government departments and even in some public statements, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) repeatedly warned that Canada, along with the U.S. is among the world's pre-eminent terrorist targets. Those threats were documented in CSIS reports that government sources say became noticeably more specific--and frightening--after 1996. Following a surge in refugees, the intelligence agency identified a lengthening list of organizations and 350 individuals active here...In fact, the federal government should have recognized the threat to this country as far back as June 23, 1985, when Air India Flight 182 was bombed killing 329 passengers and crew. Until the attacks on New York and Washington, that was the most deadly terrorist attack in modern Western history. Now the federal government is desperately trying to respond by bringing forward legislation and introducing security measures that for years have been relegated to the bottom of the agenda. It clearly hopes that the current flurry of activity will somehow mask years of inaction.

On September 18 during our supply day the Canadian Alliance called upon the Liberal government to bring forward anti-terrorist legislation. Within that legislation we asked that there be a provision for the naming of all known international terrorist organizations operating in Canada.

At first glance it would appear that Bill C-36 falls short of that recommendation. Subclause 83.05(1) provides for the establishment of a list on which:

--the Governor in Council may place any entity if, on the recommendation of the Solicitor General, the Governor in Council is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that (a) the entity has carried out, attempted to carry out, participated in or facilitated a terrorist activity; or (b) the entity is acting on behalf of, at the direction of or in association with an entity referred to in paragraph (a).

I do not see anywhere in the legislation authorization for the publication of that list unless I am missing something in the bill, although under subclause 83.05(7) there is authorization for the solicitor general to publish in The Canada Gazette notice of any person no longer a listed entity.

Publication of the names of those who are known terrorists or who have terrorist connections would effectively warn lending institutions and others not to do business with those individuals or groups.

I also point out the use of the word may as opposed to the word shall in subsection 83.05(1).

Without the word shall effectively there is no obligation for the establishment of a list. Bill C-36 provides discretionary power to the governor in council to set up a list. Furthermore, under clause 83.05 there is to be a review of the list two years after the establishment and every two years thereafter to listen and to determine whether there are still reasonable grounds for an entity to be listed.

Why is the government contemplating delisting a terrorist who, according to the definition carried out, attempted to carry out, participated in or facilitated a terrorism activity? Why has the government suggested the absurd notion that criminal records should not follow a person through life?

In criminal law now we can have a pardon after a number of years. After perhaps five years a person can apply for a pardon, but a terrorist could be delisted after two years after carrying out such atrocious acts.

Bill C-36 makes participating in, facilitating, instructing and harbouring terrorist groups an indictable offence for which a person is liable to imprisonment for variable maximum terms.

Although I fully support and commend the government for finally proscribing these activities, as it is obligated to do under the UN convention, I would hope it is receptive to amending this section of Bill C-36 to provide for minimum sentences.

Without a prescribed minimum sentence a person arrested and convicted for knowingly facilitating a terrorist activity could receive a conditional sentence. Clearly the magnitude of any and all forms of terrorist activity warrants a stiff period of incarceration.

With regard to sentencing I would also hope the government is willing to amend clause 83.26 of Bill C-36 to allow for consecutive life sentences. It is absolutely abhorrent to think that a person convicted of a terrorist act in which there were multiple deaths is eligible for parole after 15 years because the Liberal government has repeatedly failed to eliminate section 745 of the criminal code which unjustifiably grants killers a chance at early release.

Again at first glance there appear to be no provisions within Bill C-36 allowing for the deportation of alien terrorists. The United States anti-terrorist legislation, which I would like to point out was introduced within eight days of the September 11 attack on America, makes membership in terrorist organizations reason for exclusion from that country. Furthermore, it permits the deportation of aliens if sentenced to more than five years in prison. I would highly recommend that the Canadian government follow suit. In the next couple of weeks as Bill C-36 is moved through committee and as we take a look at it in greater depth, I am sure other omissions will become apparent.

Before closing, I encourage the Minister of Justice to stand firm in her resolve to balance the rights of Canadians with their security. I know in the next week the Canadian Bar Association and others may challenge Bill C-36 as going too far and unnecessarily restricting civil liberties. However, the time has come when we must determine whether or not the right of many to be safe and secure justifies an infringement of some basic individual rights and freedoms.

A poll conducted between October 2 and 4 by the Globe and Mail , CTV and Ipsos-Reid revealed that 80% of those surveyed were willing to surrender some freedom in exchange for tighter security. A high percentage of respondents would support submitting themselves to providing fingerprints for a national identity card which they would be required to carry at all times and show on request to police or security officials. Fewer, but still a majority, would support letting police stop them at random and search their vehicles without reasonable suspicion that they had committed an offence.

Far too often the courts are making new laws in their rulings. Judges are substituting their judgments over the elected representatives of the people and of parliament. According to university Professor Jane Hiebert:

Since the Charter's introduction the judiciary has passed judgment on the constitutionality of a breathtakingly broad range of political and social issues from the testing of cruise missiles in Canadian airspace to euthanasia...Effectively, the Charter offers a convenient refuge for politicians to avoid or delay difficult political and moral decisions. Elected representatives can insulate themselves from criticism, and political parties can avoid risking party cohesion by ignoring controversial issues--

I urge the minister not to abdicate her responsibility by clearly articulating within this legislation the intent of parliament to effectively balance liberty against greater security. I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Kelowna.

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today in support of the government's anti-terrorism plan as outlined in Bill C-36, the new anti-terrorism act. The main purpose of the bill is to give us better tools to address and better protect ourselves from terrorism.

As the Minister of Justice noted this morning in the House of Commons, the new legislation contains the following measures: first, measures to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists; second, measures to provide new investigative tools to allow enforcement in national security agencies to better undertake their work; and third, measures to ensure that Canadian values of respect and fairness are preserved and the root causes of hatred are addressed through stronger laws against hate crimes and propaganda. It is these last measures I wish to address today.

Since the apocalyptic events of September 11 the Government of Canada has been firm in its resolve to stand by the values of tolerance, respect and equality. I would like to take this opportunity to remind members of what the Prime Minister said in the House on September 17. He said “Today more than ever we must affirm the fundamental values of every race, every colour, every religion and every ethnic origin”. The Prime Minister also noted on that day that we will not give into temptation in a rush to increase security, to undermine the values that we cherish and which have made Canada a beacon of hope, freedom and tolerance to the world.

It is important to remember that our plan to fight the rise of terrorism in the world must include action to fight against the rise of intolerance in our midst. Expressions of hate have no place in Canadian society. They undermine the very fundamental values of respect, equality and security and cause damage to a multicultural, tolerant and law-abiding society.

Last night the Prime Minister reminded us once again that Canada is a land of immigrants, a place where people from almost every nation and faith on earth have come to find freedom, respect, harmony and a brighter future. Therefore as part of its anti-terrorism act the Government of Canada is proposing changes that address the root causes of hatred, reaffirm Canadian values and ensure that Canada's renowned respect for justice and diversity is reinforced.

These measures would include the following: first, amendments to the criminal code that would allow the courts to order the deletion of publicly available hate propaganda from computer systems; second, amendments to the criminal code which would create a new offence of mischief motivated by bias, prejudice or hate committed against a place of religious worship or associated religious property; and third, amendments to be made to the Canadian Human Rights Act to extend the prohibition against hate messages beyond telephone messages to include all communications technologies. I will continue to elaborate on these measures.

It is important to remember that Canada, along with other like-minded countries, has embarked upon a war against terrorists and terrorism. Unfortunately, because recent acts of terrorism are associated with people of a certain faith, some regrettably and wrongfully view it as a religious war. Osama bin Laden himself, in his pre-taped message the day after the United States attacks, actually called upon the Muslim world. He is the one who is inciting that hatred. More unfortunately, here in Canada some Canadians of Muslim faith have been made the targets of the anger Canadians are feeling against those whom they feel are responsible.

At the same time as we take measures to protect ourselves from terrorist activities, we want to ensure that Canadians of any origin do not become a target for hatred. We want to make sure that everyone in the country in all circumstances will continue to enjoy the rights guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In this context the right to freedom of religion guaranteed by section 2(a) of the charter takes on particular importance. The criminal code already protects any group distinguished by colour, race, religion or ethnic origin from statements of hatred directed against them.

In fact, it is an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes when an offence is motivated by hatred. The Canadian Human Rights Act already protects any person from repeat communications by means of telecommunications of any matter that is likely to expose that person to hatred or contempt by reason of this person being identified on the basis of a prohibited ground of discrimination.

I previously noted that the bill includes additional measures to better protect from hatred those who have become vulnerable because they belong to a group distinguished by factors such as race, religion or ethnic origin. The bill would create the offence of mischief motivated by hatred in relation to places of religious worship or objects associated with religious worship found in such a place.

The harm done by a mischief against a religious property goes far beyond the physical damage to the property. The greatest harm comes from the message of hatred that is conveyed by the mischief. Such mischief would create fear among worshippers of a specific religion and divert them from the practise of their religion. It is because we recognize these far reaching implications that we want to create an offence of mischief that is related to the purpose of the property damage, regardless of the value of that property.

The offence of mischief in relation to religious property would be a very serious offence. It would be subject to a maximum penalty of 10 years when prosecuted on indictment or 18 months when prosecuted on summary conviction.

In addition, the government is proposing two provisions that respond to the fact that the Internet is now an easily available and efficient means of communication of hatred. The Canadian Human Rights Act would be amended to clarify that communicating by computer hate messages against a person identifiable on the basis of a prohibited ground of discrimination is a discriminatory practice. In addition to any other penalty, persons found responsible for these messages could be required to cease and desist from this practice.

The criminal code would be amended to authorize the court to order deletion of publicly available online hate propaganda when it is stored on a server that is within the jurisdiction of the court. This procedure is independent from prosecution. It would allow the material to be deleted in cases where the person who posted it is unknown or is outside the country. The person who posted the material would be given an opportunity to be heard before the judge would decide to order deletion of the material.

The criminal code already provides for the seizure and forfeiture of copies held for sale or distribution of any publication found by the court to be hate propaganda. This procedure would parallel in the cyberworld a procedure that is available in the material world.

Protecting minorities from discrimination and hatred is a value that is well established in Canadian law. For more than 30 years the criminal code has protected from hatred identifiable groups, which are defined as any group distinguished by colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. The communication of statements in a public place inciting hatred against an identifiable group is an offence when it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace. The communication of statements other than in private conversations that wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group is also an offence. Advocating or promoting genocide, whether in public or in private, is an offence.

More recently we have made it an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes when there is evidence that the commission of an offence is motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on factors such as race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour or religion.

For almost 20 years the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has protected our fundamental liberties and provided for equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination based on factors including race, national or ethnic origin, colour or religion.

The Canadian Human Rights Act, which applies to the private sector under federal jurisdiction, prohibits discrimination based on factors that include race, national or ethnic origin or religion.

Finally, it is important that we have the legislative means to defend ourselves against terrorists, but it is also equally important that we do that without discriminating against Canadians of minority religion or ethnic origin.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to speak to this debate on Bill C-36. This is a very important bill.

I would indicate at the outset that members of the Progressive Conservative/Democratic Representative Caucus Coalition are generally supportive of this legislation and enthusiastically supportive of the need to bring about changes in our internal security measures and the way in which we deal with terrorism in this country.

I begin my remarks by saying that this debate has taken a very constructive tone. It has been representative of the recognition by all members of the House of the desire on the part of Canadians to plug some of the legislative gaps that exist to address the issue of terrorism head on. I think in fairness that this legislation is an attempt to do just that.

Ideally in every sense we would like to see laser guided precision when we deal with issues such as this, of public security. I hope that my remarks will be indicative of a genuine desire to improve and buttress this legislation in some way.

It is encouraging to see that the government has taken decisive action. Following September 11 there was a public need, a very anxious nervousness that direction and leadership be displayed by the government. After one month this legislation is here. In fairness I believe that it is a good bill. It is a bill that attempts in a broad way in an omnibus form to address some of the holes that are there and which have been exploited by international terrorists.

There are some shortcomings. There is room for improvement. In particular this legislation needs to be given greater detail. The legislation needs to be put under the microscope and the lamp not only by members of parliament but by those who will be affected. As the minister herself indicated in her remarks, this is not the be all and the end all. There is going to be a need for further legislative changes in the areas of immigration, border security, economics and trade and customs and excise. All of these areas have been affected in a profound way by this horrific event which was the pinnacle, in our generation, of aggression brought to bear in North America. It is a time for measured and introspective action but action nonetheless.

Elements of this legislation that will improve upon our internal security measures include the announcement that police will be able to carry out preventive arrests, that is, arrests of individuals without charge under strong suspicion of activity related to terrorism. There is a subtle but important change in that bar, that standard that is to be applied by CSIS agents which is now afforded to the RCMP. That is to say they can arrest on reasonable suspicion as opposed to reasonable grounds. It is of such importance when dealing with terrorism that police should be afforded that standard.

I would argue there is more that can be done. The issue of preventative arrest is something that is going to cause a lot of jitters and nervousness among the communities. There are safeguards in place which we are quick to acknowledge. The individuals brought to justice must appear before a judge within 24 hours. They can be detained a further 48 hours, bringing it to a total of 72 hours in custody. Yet they must have this appearance before a judge and there must be reasons given. During that time in custody it is good to see it enunciated that they will be able to afford themselves charter rights, that is, right to counsel, right to disclosure, reasons for being held in custody. All of those traditional rights will still apply and those safeguards should apply.

This type of pre-emptive strike on the part of police officers is a response to the seriousness and the grave implications that can flow from terrorist activity.

The use and implementation of investigative hearings is an important step that we find in Bill C-36. The police can take a person into custody and deduce information and question a person with respect to terrorist activity. The person appears before a judge and is required to answer questions. The individual cannot be forced to incriminate himself or herself but may be forced at least to respond to questions about his or her activities.

How compromised would their individual rights be? That remains to be seen. The return to a power that used to exist in Canada and still exists in the United States, for example the process of grand juries, would be an interesting experiment but one upon which we must embark in our efforts to deal with terrorism.

Increasing the powers of the Communications Security Establishment is an important step. Currently the CSE is only allowed to monitor communications outside Canada. Under this legislation CSE would require only the authorization of the Minister of Justice before monitoring discussions between a foreigner and someone in Canada.

With regard to monitoring, Bill C-36 would allow police to obtain one year surveillance warrants for suspected terrorists. While benchmarks and criteria would need to be met, police would have an increased and expanded ability to monitor and conduct surveillance on communications that relate to terrorist activity.

Currently police can perform this type of surveillance for only 60 days. The efforts of the bill to expand that ability are important. It also makes an effort to streamline and expedite the ability to get warrants and wiretaps. The current process is extremely onerous and is an impediment to the ability of police to monitor criminal activity. There is a need to expand this in the general context of police work.

I would have liked the bill to set out a clear definition of terrorism as we have seen in the United Kingdom, however, I commend the government for including a definition of terrorist activity. This was taken from many sources.

I am told there are 190 definitions of terrorism in legislation around the world. Bill C-36 defines terrorist activity as action taken for a political, religious or ideological purpose that threatens the public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing property damage likely to injure people, or disrupting an essential service or facility.

The definition does not state that terrorist activity does not involve lawful activity such as protests and strikes. There is therefore concern, as has been mentioned by my colleague from Winnipeg--Transcona and others in the debate, that legitimate political protest might fall under a rather broad umbrella.

Bill C-36 is defined in such a way that judges applying common sense criteria would not find that legitimate forms of protest or activities deemed counter to the government would fall under this ambit. However, even before this legislation came into being there was a politicized element to protests such as those we witnessed in Quebec City.

When students in bandanas and ripped jeans who carry signs are cracked down on by police in a violent and forceful way it causes concern, almost paranoia, in the minds of many. We must be cognizant of that. We must also be cognizant, as was mentioned by the Alliance critic, of the political interference or politicization of RCMP and security measures. We know that the Prime Minister's surrogate son, Jean Carle, involved himself far too heavily in police activity in Vancouver.

That was a serious concern. It was examined by a judge, Judge Hughes, who came out with strong recommendations and repudiations regarding the RCMP. We cannot ignore such politicization. As was suggested, it calls for a greater firewall between the solicitor general and the commissioner of the RCMP to prevent the guiding hand of the PMO from playing a role in the way security is carried out. Governments sometimes have a vested interest in suppressing that type of activity, as we have seen at the APEC inquiry.

I would support a list of terrorist organizations and individuals being put together on the recommendation of the solicitor general and an order in council. This would be a legitimate attempt to identify those who have participated in fundraising or any activity that could be connected to terrorism.

Having a list available to be shared among security services would be an important step toward controlling and, it is hoped, preventing action on the part of those enumerated. It would allow for legislative tracking. It would allow for cross-references with various organizations including CSIS, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, Interpol and other international partners in our security services attempts to curtail terrorist activities.

There would be safeguards. Groups that appear on the list could appeal. They could appeal to the solicitor general and the list would be reviewed every two years.

The more substantive measures in the bill entail changes to the criminal code and the creation of new offences. The criminal code offences would deal with instructing or soliciting support for a person to carry out a terrorist act. Maximum penalties of life imprisonment would be attached to such activity.

This is all being done against the backdrop of the horrific events that occurred in the United States on September 11 in various locations including New York City and Washington. With such life altering and life taking implications these criminal code offences take on a poignant meaning. Knowingly facilitating the activities of a terrorist group would be punishable by 14 years. Harbouring a terrorist would be punishable by 10 years. Fundraising for or participating in a terrorist group would be punishable by 10 years.

There will be heated debate over the practical implications of Bill C-36. Further definition of what it means to participate may be required. However let us keep it in the proper context. The legislation does not go as far as that of the United Kingdom where even passive support for a terrorist organization can result in criminal charges.

Bill C-36 would allow for and encourage the freezing and seizing of assets of terrorists and their supporters. That is a welcome and necessary step. As has been noted numerous times, assets are the lifeblood that keeps terrorist organizations alive.

We know they are here in Canada. CSIS has produced a list that clearly identifies 50 terrorist cells operating in the country and 350 individuals who are involved in the cells. They are here and they are active. Cutting off their lifeblood of financial assets and resources is one important step in eventually eliminating, curtailing and capturing those who engage in terrorism.

Introducing consecutive sentences is a welcome step but it does not address another shortcoming in the criminal code: the anomaly that allows mass murderers to avail themselves of early release. Through provisions of the criminal code they can avail themselves of statutory release. This is one of the ridiculous anomalies that exist in our criminal code.

Bill C-36 would change sentencing provisions to make terrorists ineligible for release until they have served half their sentences, but they could still avail themselves of early release provisions that exist under the National Parole Act and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. There will be further discussion and examination of this at the committee.

Someone who exhibits such a blatant lack of respect for human life is unlikely to avail themselves of rehabilitation. For that reason I am encouraged by the harsh sentences outlined in Bill C-36. However the parole eligibility may lessen and blunt the instrument of justice in this regard. At the very least there must be a clear and unequivocal statement of denunciation when it comes to terrorist activity.

Some of the anticipated fallout or backlash against Bill C-36 from groups concerned about civil liberties is addressed in the substance of the bill. It calls for the strengthening of laws against hate crimes by punishing the destruction of churches or mosques with sentences of up to 10 years. It would also take steps to make it easier to remove hate propaganda from the Internet.

Concerns have been raised about this by Internet service providers, particularly smaller ones who make legitimate efforts to monitor their systems. In many instances service providers do not have the capability or resources to fully complete that task yet they are good corporate citizens. They are concerned that criminal liability will attach to them because they are providers or facilitators of the communication of hate propaganda.

Nonetheless I endorse the attempt to dissuade anyone from facilitating, aiding or abetting the distribution of hate propaganda. In this heated and extremely troubling time there has been a backlash against certain communities. It is encouraging that the legislation includes provisions to prevent people from lashing out at religious organizations and followers of the Muslim faith who are often the antithesis of those who engage in violence or terrorist activity.

The bill's amendments regarding the Official Secrets Act are meant to counter espionage by taking into account new computer technologies and the need to fight intelligence gathering activities by foreign powers and terrorist groups. This is a recognition that the means of communication have changed substantially. We need to update ourselves and use new methodologies to monitor new forms of communication. That is what Bill C-36 would allow the law enforcement community to do.

The bill would also amend the Canada Evidence Act to protect information obtained by foreign intelligence agencies when used in Canadian courts. It would amend the Firearms Act to allow air marshals, mainly from the United States, to fly into Canada. These amendments are a clear common sense recognition that the world we live in has changed substantially and that we need to accommodate changes that have taken place in countries like the United States.

I encourage all members to support these provisions. Members of the coalition will be reviewing Bill C-36 at the committee level and supporting the majority of them. The bill's provisions would allow police, CSIS and others that provide security to develop a more effective methodology for combating terrorism.

My greatest concern, which has been expressed numerous times, is about the resource allocation that would be required to implement these changes. The bill's provisions for new powers of arrest, investigative techniques, investigative hearings and use of warrants would all require additional resources and training.

The Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada has referred to $250 million in new resources. When that is spread out over time and we allow for the bureaucratic assistance that goes with law enforcement, the actual impact on person power and frontline policing will be fairly minimal when one considers the task. We will be pressing the government for more specifics in that regard.

There are concerns about the bill's powers of arrest and detention. Those matters will be pressed at the committee level and further meat will be put on the bones with respect to details. If the legislation is enacted it will be up for review in three years. A sunset clause of greater duration may be necessary.

The Progressive Conservative/Democratic Representative coalition will be supporting the legislation in its first instance while looking for improvements at the committee level and providing an indepth examination. I look forward to that process taking place, as do all Canadians, and the speedy passage of Bill C-36 into law.