Financial Consumer Agency of Canada Act

An Act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada and to amend certain Acts in relation to financial institutions

This bill was last introduced in the 37th Parliament, 1st Session, which ended in September 2002.

Sponsor

Paul Martin  Liberal

Status

This bill has received Royal Assent and is now law.

Elsewhere

All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from the Library of Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 15th, 2001 / 11:45 a.m.
See context

Canadian Alliance

Deborah Grey Canadian Alliance Edmonton North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise again on Bill C-10, which is going through another life cycle. At the beginning of the 36th parliament it was Bill C-48 and at the end of the 36th parliament it became Bill C-8.

I was pleased to be critic at the time for Canadian heritage and I spent some time on the bill. However it now rises again. These things seem to die on the order paper fairly regularly. The bill originated in 1988 when the Mulroney government introduced the National Parks Act that would permit the establishment of marine parks.

I will not go through all the details but I will hit a few high points about the intent of the legislation. I do not think anyone in the House or across the country would disagree that environmental protection and sustainability are paramount. Whether they pertain to national parks, marine areas or regulating the pollution of large companies, environmental protection and sustainable development are very important issues.

However these issues do not fall specifically within the jurisdictional power of the Minister of Canadian Heritage. We talk about ecosystems, fish, aquaculture and so on. It would be wise to place some of the responsibility for these issues with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We could then talk about the Department of the Environment and how important it is to look at environmental sustainability in the whole area of marine conservation parks.

I also sense frustration with the amount of input parliament would have. I am not sure if this place is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Bill C-10 would pare down anything parliament would have to say on the issue. It would limit parliamentary input by giving cabinet the authority to create marine conservation areas on crown land without going through the normal legislative process. The question is, why bother with this place at all? Cabinet might as well get together, have coffee, bring up an order in council and throw a dart and pick a marine conservation area.

A lot of people and advisory committees have done an incredible amount of work on this issue. I have seen the maps and the areas and they seem well thought out. However the whole idea of going to cabinet and just zipping something through in a morning session, or maybe not even that long, maybe even before coffee, is no good. The House of Commons is where such debate should take place.

We know in the years we have been here that the amount of discussion and the power of parliament itself has been pared down. Members have also witnessed incredible growth in government. Budgets have ballooned. The debt has certainly ballooned and hopefully we are starting to control that. The annual deficit is somewhat under control. That is probably a good start.

Let us look at the amount of governing that would occur under marine conservations areas. Once a marine conservation area is established the minister may maintain and operate the facilities, conduct scientific research and monitor and carry out studies based on traditional ecological knowledge of the areas.

That is a nice tidy sentence. We can all guess where it may lead. It could lead to mushrooming bureaucracies, advisory committees and all kinds of studies and scientific research. Such things are essential but if they are not monitored they could fly loose. The legislation could be an entity unto itself. When members see the mushroom cloud it places under the government, a cloud with no checks or balances that will only get bigger and bigger, they should be careful.

This whole area unnecessarily expands the minister's domain to areas that fall outside her ministerial responsibility. The minister talks about marine conservation areas, which is again a nice thought and something that perhaps needs to happen sooner or later to a degree, but it is by order in council and should be under DFO control as much as anything else.

What about the Minister of the Environment? The bill would require the heritage minister to establish a management plan for marine conservation, ecosystem protection, human use and zoning. Somewhere in there surely the Minister of the Environment and his department should be involved. We then start saying that it is this department or that department and the whole thing blows loose because it gets bigger and bigger rather than adopting tighter checks and balances.

In addition, each marine conservation area would require the establishment of a management advisory committee to review and implement management plans. For every marine park or conservation area there needs to be a whole advisory committee. I am not necessarily questioning the wisdom of that. A lot of people have a lot of expertise in the area and I do not. I certainly respect the ability of advisory committees to review and implement plans.

However where does it stop? That is the question. This thing will get bigger and bigger. There must be rules and regulations and the government needs to come forward with them. Unfortunately we see no checks and balances in this piece of legislation.

Ministers have all kinds of power, which we have certainly seen. I could digress and talk about Bill C-15, the enormous omnibus justice bill, but there is no point in getting into that right now. It is certainly before the House. It is an unbelievable piece of legislation and an example of phenomenal ministerial power. I hope it gets chunked down into bite size pieces so we can deal with each section on its own.

Regarding ministerial powers and perhaps overuse of powers, the minister states that commercial fishing and shipping would be appropriate in conservation areas. I would like an expert to tell us those things rather than the minister.

In the last bill we talked about whether the minister would be able to curtail or eliminate commercial flights over marine conservation areas. What would that do to small charter companies that fly over the ocean three-quarters of their lives on the B.C. straits?

The clauses would allow commercial fishing according to the minister's will. All aquaculture fisheries management, marine navigation and marine safety plans would then be subject to the approval of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Minister of Heritage. Do we not see the thing getting bigger and bigger? It looks like mushrooming to me.

The whole idea of putting regulations into place is essential. However, how do we enforce them? We have seen all kinds of legislation over the years where regulations were put in place and not enforced. How do we enforce regulations? That is the frustration we see with the National Parks Act.

My colleague talked about Kootenay Park, Banff, Jasper and Yoho. The parallel is that the National Parks Act does not give park wardens sufficient authority to enforce the law. Park wardens drive around in their brown trucks. We see them all the time. I live very close to Elk Island National Park. It is 45 minutes east of my home in Edmonton. Lew and I ride out there a lot. We see park wardens and we know they are people we ought to respect.

I am a law-abiding citizen. When I see the rangers' authority I do not try to pull anything on them. We have gone around and around the block in the House about sidearms for park rangers. If a person is up to no good or wants to poach moose, elk or bison, they know park wardens are fairly powerless. The government is very irresponsible in terms of the National Parks Act.

The parallel can then be drawn: What would the government do with the marine conservation act? The director of Parks Canada has suggested allowing the RCMP to get involved. That is good, but there are lots of parks where the RCMP is more than a 12 minute drive away. Park wardens should have all the power and authority vested in them by the government and the minister to protect both wildlife and public safety.

For marine conservation acts the record is not stellar. We must ask what would happen. Would people be chased around in boats? Is that what enforcing the regulations would come to?

Let us look at the history of the legislation. This is the third swing around. Who knows when it might get passed? Is the government really committed to the legislation? It has died on the order paper a couple of times, as I mentioned. Will we put regulations in place that the minister will live by, or is this a grandiose plan that will not be enforced?

Many think parliament is irrelevant. A proposed amendment structure in the legislation would allow 20 days for amendments and a three hour debate on them. Such amendments may affect shipping lanes, commercial fishing, sport fishing, aquaculture, commercial flights, and who knows what. Recreational boating may not be allowed in some areas. If an amendment is put forward there would be only three hours to debate it. That is almost an admission that parliament is irrelevant and does not matter. Decisions would be made around the cabinet table.

The legislation would severely limit the ability of parliamentarians to consider all options when new marine areas are set up. The bill would give the Minister of Canadian Heritage free rein to create unlimited advisory committees for each marine conservation area. We know where that could go when people are absolutely unchecked.

Limitations on the size and structure of each committee must be established in the legislation. We need to make sure the parameters are in place. If we get an unlimited number of people with unlimited amounts of salary, and it looks like a big pot out of which we can draw cash, we all know that it could go on for a very long time. It may need to be studied for a little longer and, because it is important, we may need to bring in 15 experts. The thing needs some parameters in place but unfortunately we are not seeing that at this time.

I will wrap up by drawing a parallel with the land national parks and some of the things going on there. The parks of Banff and Jasper are absolutely glorious. They have a lot of building projects going on. The minister took her first swing out to those parks last summer or the summer before and was able to see first hand how fabulous these parks are and how important it is that we balance economic and sustainable development with environmental protection.

We want to make sure there is a balance in nature. We may not be able to please both sides of the equation but if I want to go to a park or spend money on a hotel or in a restaurant, I want to be able to do that. If I have the money to go camping in Jasper Park, I want to be able to go there and enjoy the pristine wilderness, have a campfire outside my camper and enjoy the campground. I am not sure that anyone ought to be telling me that I cannot do that.

It would be the same if we were talking about a marine conservation area. It is important that I am able to make use of that area but at the same time I do not want heavyhanded regulations. I want wisdom, not advisory committees. This may sound foolish, coming around in boats, but there needs to be absolute common sense from the government. I do not think we see that to this extent with some of the things I have discussed. I hope the government takes into account, when it swings through the legislation again, that too many rules and regulations certainly are unwise. At the same time, this just cannot be an open can or basket for people to help themselves.

I am really nervous about the fact that the minister would have far too much power and that it would be essential for joint ministries to work together. If we look at heritage we see that we have a marvellous heritage. We can also look at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Department of the Environment. I certainly hope that no one is just trying to make a legacy for themselves. That would surely be unwise and people would be able to see right through that.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 14th, 2001 / 4:30 p.m.
See context

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak to Bill C-10, which replaces the now defunct Bills C-48 and C-8 dealing with the creation of marine areas, more specifically 28 marine conservation areas.

The Bloc Quebecois is not against protecting the environment, but it is against Bill C-10 for several reasons I will list now.

First, we are opposed to the bill because the federal government is grabbing the power to create marine conservation areas without any regard for provincial jurisdictions. Why is the federal government not consulting the provinces on this, more specifically Quebec, as it did for example with regard to the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park? Why in the case of Bill C-10 on the establishment of marine conservation areas is it not consulting Quebec and working together with it?

There is another example, phase 3 of the St. Lawrence action plan. There were consultations. Why is it that when it comes to Bill C-10 there was no consultation, which would be desirable and would benefit the population? Although it is being said that the federal government wants to establish marine conservation areas for the benefit of the people and their social life and to help the economy, it is ignoring the government of Quebec and provincial jurisdictions in this area.

The Bloc Quebecois opposes any attempt to duplicate and trivialize Quebec's jurisdictions over the environment, fisheries and oceans.

Again, this goes to show the bad faith of the federal government. When Canadian Heritage is involved, not too much attention is paid to Quebec's jurisdictions and to shared jurisdictions.

The Minister of Canadian Heritage has just announced an investment of $500 million in culture. It is typical again of this department: no consideration for provincial jurisdictions and no consultation. It just goes ahead without examining the action plan, if only on culture, with Quebec. Here again, in the marine conservation areas issue, the federal government's way of doing things is there for all to see.

Several witnesses appeared before the committee and said that there would be duplication and that there would be a new structure. The government wants to duplicate even within its own bureaucracy. We are wondering how consistently this bill will be applied.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Department of the Environment are both involved in the protection of the environment. When I talk about duplication inside the federal government, I am referring to these two departments.

How can we accept such a bill when several witness have told us there will be inconsistencies in the way it will be applied and in the management of marine conservation areas? A number of witnesses told us that this made no sense. Among those appearing before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage was the vice-president of the Fisheries Council of Canada.

The Fisheries Council of Canada is a trade association representing provincial fisheries associations in Atlantic Canada and Ontario. He told us:

If there's a need for legislation to establish marine conservation areas, it is our view that such legislation should be incorporated into the recently passed Oceans Act under the responsibility of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and administered by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It is simply inefficient—

These are his words, not mine.

—cumbersome public administration to bring forward this MCA initiative in its own act under the responsibility of a separate minister and a separate department.

We can therefore see that there is duplication, inconsistency and inefficiency to come, if Bill C-10 sees the light of day. He goes on to say:

The fishing industry, for example, is working with the Fisheries and Oceans minister and Fisheries officials regarding development of an oceans strategy for Canada and an approach to the introduction of marine-protected areas. These tasks are the result of the establishment of the Oceans Act in 1996, an act that states that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans shall lead and facilitate the development and implementation of a national strategy for the management of estuarine, coastal and marine ecosystems.

He went on:

Bringing forward this MCA initiative at this time under the responsibility of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, to be administered by officials of Canadian Heritage, undermines the oceans leadership role assigned to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans under the Oceans Act.

If the challenge for Canadian industry in the milieu of globalization is to be streamlined and efficient, we should be able to demand government structures that are also focused and streamlined. Regardless of the merits of MCAs, of this initiative, the manner in which it is brought forward will lead to confusion, duplication and conflicts in its implementation.

This witness testified at the committee hearings on the defunct Bill C-8, and the government has not really made any changes in Bill C-10. This is nearly exactly what was found in C-8. The witness called for the withdrawal of the bill and added:

The bill should be withdrawn. Discussions should be initiated with officials of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans with a view to bringing forward an amendment to the Oceans Act to specifically provide for the establishment of marine conservation areas, where warranted, as part of Canada's oceans strategy.

Another quote comes from Marc Kielley, the executive director in Newfoundland of the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance, in February 1999. This is an association representing the interests of regional and sectoral aquaculture associations and their members, who raise fish and shellfish. He said:

Overall, while we respect the need for conservation, we object to the bill for a number of fundamental reasons. At issue: The coming into force of an act to create the national marine conservation areas will result in unnecessary and expensive duplication of existing legislation, specifically the Oceans Act, 1996, as well as the National Parks Act as amended in 1988.

Again, a witness representing the aquaculture industry felt that Bill C-8 should have been withdrawn. Therefore, if Bill C-8 should have been withdrawn, so should Bill C-10, because it is basically headed in the same direction, except for a few changes. The French version of the preamble of C-8 provided that marine areas had to be “représentatives et protégées”, whereas in the new bill, they must be “protégées et représentatives”. This is a very cosmetic amendment that does not deal with the core issue, namely duplication, overlapping and the ineffectiveness of this legislation.

In a number of departments, including two in particular, it would be hard to be consistent in implementing the law. The organization also stated:

So with regard to the implementation of the integrated management plans, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans shall develop and implement policies and programs with regard to matters assigned by law to the Minister, and shall coordinate with other ministers, boards, and agencies of the Government of Canada the implementation of policies and programs of the government with regard to all activities or measures in or affecting coastal waters or marine waters.

Based on the foregoing, it is abundantly clear that Bill...is redundant legislation and, if passed, would only serve to confuse and complicate issues relating to the protection and conservation of marine resources and marine ecosystems.

To empower the Minister of Canadian Heritage for the MCA initiative effectively undermines the authority and mandate of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans as provided for under the provisions of the Oceans Act. This should not be permitted to occur.

What is the difference between a marine protected area and a marine conservation area? How do these two seemingly similar elements fit into the overall tapestry of integrated coastal zone management? What about marine wildlife areas?

So, there are several issues here. It is somewhat in that spirit that we can emphasize the inconsistency of such a bill and its ineffectiveness. A number of people may have difficulties making a decision.

When the minister tells us that this is for the good of people, for the good of the community, from an economic, cultural and social point of view, we wonder.

When credible people, people with a certain amount of expertise on the issue, come and testify, we as parliamentarians are there to analyze the experience behind and the relevance of their recommendations. We always listen in good faith. However it is always disappointing when we see the government dig in its heels with a bill. The government has gone back to the drawing board three times and each time it has come back with a bill that is no different. It has ignored what the witnesses had to say.

I wish to cite what Tom Lee, the Director General of Parks Canada, told the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. He said:

The marine conservation areas fall under a partnership with other federal departments, basically, under the general direction of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. Under the Oceans Act, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans takes leadership in putting in place the protective and management measures for Canada's oceans. That involves a number of federal departments, and the two other major ones are noted here, Environment and Canadian Heritage.

Once again, there are doubts about Heritage Canada's effectiveness in managing marine conservation areas.

I have here more testimony, this time by Marlon Quinton, a project co-ordinator who appeared before the committee. He said, and I quote:

This brief is submitted to the House of Commons standing committee on behalf of the Bonavista Bay and Notre Dame Bay National Marine Conservation Area Advisory Committee Cooperation.

As a committee, we have held a series of stakeholder meetings to exchange information and obtain feedback on the suitability of the proposed marine park, to date.

He continues:

Stakeholder workshops have been held on commercial fisheries, aquaculture, tourism, and mistrust of government and how to build trust. In our deliberations we have taken a careful look at what impact this initiative would have on the Newfoundland people who earn a living on the water and at whether Bill C-48 and the proposed NMCA could negatively affect traditional and existing livelihoods, incomes, property rights, and freedoms.

He added, for another reason:

We are mystified as to why Canadian Heritage is attempting to run a parallel conservation initiative under a separate piece of legislation.

We were presented with about two pages full of objections in connection with Bill C-10, should it ever see the light of day.

There is another. I wonder how all these recommendations came to be ignored, when they simply suggested that Bill C-10 be withdrawn and not proceeded with, as there were so many witnesses who were opposed to it.

Jean-Claude Grégoire, a member of the board of directors of the Alliance des pêcheurs professionnels du Québec, also indicated the harmful nature of the bill. He spoke of the alliance membership, describing them as primarily inshore fishers who generally use fixed gear and fish along the coastline.

He went on to say that, for all manner of reasons, he would:

—not be interested in seeing a marine conservation area as intended by the spirit of the law. This is unlikely to be accepted by those industries or communities that depend on the sea for their livelihood. It will clearly have to be acceptable to stakeholders.

Once again, we see economic concerns expressed.

In light of the inefficacy Bill C-10 would have, the Bloc Quebecois is opposed to going ahead with and supporting, this bill.

Then there is the matter of Quebec jurisdiction. Why in this bill did they ignore Quebec jurisdiction over marine areas? We find it regrettable that Bill C-10 did not respect the integrity of the territory. Why did we set up the Saguenay marine park in consultation with the community, the federal government and the Quebec government?

The Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park would have been a model to follow. In 1997 the governments of Quebec and Canada agreed to pass legislation to create the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. That legislation established the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, the first marine park to be created jointly by the federal and Quebec governments, without any transfer of territory. Both governments will continue to fulfil their respective responsibilities.

There was also the St. Lawrence action plan, another example the government could have followed. The environment ministers of Quebec and of Canada announced phase 3 of the St. Lawrence development plan, representing a total bill of $230 million. How did they manage to agree in these two examples, and in the case of Bill C-10, which is on the table, and in the establishment of the 28 marine conservation areas, the government ignored Quebec's jurisdiction?

The government also knows that jurisdiction over the environment is shared under the Constitution Act, 1867. The federal and Quebec governments share jurisdiction over the environment. Here again, we can see the federal government's bad faith in this matter. The Constitution Act provides that: “in each province, the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to: exploration for non-renewable natural resources in the province, development, conservation and management of non-renewable natural resources and forestry resources in the province, including laws in relation to the rate of primary production therefrom”.

When we see the lack of respect for provincial jurisdictions, which pertain to the exploration for natural resources, development, conservation and the management of natural resources, we see the government is ignoring provincial jurisdictions.

By refusing to use the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park Act as a model and by making title to the territory an essential condition for the establishment of marine conservation areas, the federal government would be able to establish marine conservation areas on submerged lands to which it claims to have title and thus bypass Quebec's environmental jurisdictions.

We are very disappointed with what the federal government did with the recommendations made by various witnesses, including with regard to the protection of provincial jurisdictions.

There is more. The witnesses came to tell us that marine conservation areas should not be the responsibility of Heritage Canada because of duplication within the federal government, with Fisheries and Oceans and Environment Canada both having a certain role to play with regard to the protection of ecosystems.

National parks come under the responsibility of Canadian Heritage, which is not necessarily doing its job. There are serious problems in some national parks. I could mention the case of Forillon park, where a cliff is threatening to slide and collapse. Nothing has been done to reinforce it, which puts the life of tourists and workers in danger. In the case of Mingan Islands park, money is needed. Several islands are threatened by erosion. Witnesses raised several problems in national parks.

Why does Heritage Canada not fulfil its responsibility in this area instead of dealing with problems that are not its concern? If it wants to do things right, it should start by doing the things for which it is responsible.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 10th, 2001 / 5:05 p.m.
See context

Canadian Alliance

Andy Burton Canadian Alliance Skeena, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak with great concern about the government's Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada. Before I comment on the areas of the bill that I find quite concerning, I would like to make the following statement.

I believe that Canada's natural heritage should be protected and that it is our responsibility to ensure a viable environment is passed on to our children and our children's children in perpetuity. However, I also believe that the very survival of many remote and coastal communities, particularly those in my riding in northern British Columbia, depend on natural resources.

British Columbia has been blessed with beauty and an abundance of natural resources, many would say more than enough to go around. Yes, we must protect our natural environment, but we must do so with the understanding that not all industry is harmful to the environment and that the economic sustainability of many coastal and remote communities hinges on their ability to extract or harvest those natural resources, be it fisheries, forestry, mining or drilling for fossil fuels. This is a reality we cannot overlook.

As members of the House undoubtedly know, the bill has had a rather difficult time making its way through parliament in the past.

An earlier form of the bill was introduced in the House of Commons during the 36th parliament as the then Bill C-48. It was referred to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage which heard evidence in February and March of 1999. Bill C-48 then died on the order paper when parliament was prorogued.

It reappeared in the second session of the 36th parliament as Bill C-8. It made its way as far as report stage. Although it was amended slightly in committee, it too died on the order paper when parliament dissolved to the call of the October 2000 election.

Bill C-10 before us today is a reincarnation of both Bill C-48 and Bill C-8, taking into account the 1999 amendments.

I would venture to suggest that a lack of broad public consultation is the reason for previous versions of the bill being dumped from the government's legislative agenda in the past. I would say that it still needs much amending.

I do urge the government whip to allow her members to take a long hard look at the effects of the bill and allow their conscience to guide them in making much needed changes in committee and report stage.

At this time I would like to shift my attention away from the scope of the bill and narrow in on what I believe are some key areas of the bill.

To begin, let us take a close look at the preamble, specifically lines 4 to 10 in the government's definition of precautionary principle. The bill begins by stating:

Whereas the Government of Canada is committed to adopting the precautionary principle in the conservation and management of the marine environment so that, where there are threats of environmental damage, lack of scientific certainty is not used as a reason for postponing preventive measures;

The hon. members in the House today and the viewers at home may not realize that Bill C-10 considerably expands the concept of the precautionary principle. There is broad support for the wording of principle 15 of the 1991 Rio declaration on environment and development, which states:

In order to protect the environment, the precautionary approach shall be widely applied by States according to their capabilities. Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost effective measures to prevent environmental degradation.

Members of the House should be concerned that since the precautionary principle guides the government in its decision making process, this substantially expanded version allows the government to essentially create marine conservation areas wherever it pleases; the definition is that broad.

By removing the words serious or irreversible when dealing with threat assessment, the government has carte blanche to decide what warrants a designation of a marine conservation area and what does not. This is not in accordance with the Rio declaration that Canada signed on to and, as such, is not an appropriate definition of the precautionary principle.

I would urge members of the House to demand the amendment of the definition. The precautionary principle is the guiding force determining what regions become marine conservation areas. It is not acceptable that this definition be expanded arbitrarily.

I am concerned with a few other clauses of the bill, which I believe either need to be amended or entirely deleted.

The government has said that the purpose of the bill is to establish the rules that will allow for the creation of national marine conservation areas to protect and conserve marine ecosystems that are representative of the 29 marine environments in Canada's coastal zones and the Great Lakes.

Unlike national parks, whose resources are fully protected, marine conservation areas are managed for sustainable use, except where forbidden by clause 13, which deals with the exploration and extraction of any and all mineral or other deposits within a marine conservation area.

The bill would allow for sustainable use within the marine conservation area, with a focus on recreation, tourism, education and research.

Currently, federal-provincial agreements are either in place or under consideration for four parks, representing five of the twenty-nine marine regions. The proposed Gwaii Haanas park on Queen Charlotte Shelf in the Hecate Strait marine regions is in my riding of Skeena. This park could represent an area roughly equivalent to one-sixth of my total riding.

I must say that there are those who believe the intent of the legislation is to forbid any form of development within marine conservation areas and, further, to go beyond protecting the original 29 marine regions the legislation was designed for and to create many more new marine conservation areas. This is of grave concern to me and to many other Canadians.

As is mentioned in the bill, these 29 marine conservation areas would be zoned for different uses. Some may be zoned strictly for tourism, others for science, and there are many who believe most of these marine conservation areas would severely restrict any human activity, but more specifically industrial activity.

Whatever the original intent of the bill may be, I would urge members to take specific notice of clause 13, which specifically forbids any mineral or inorganic resource extraction within all marine conservation areas. Allow me to quote from the bill in clause 13 on page 9:

No person shall explore for or exploit hydrocarbons, minerals, aggregates or any other inorganic matter within a marine conservation area.

I ask the House to reflect on why the bill needs such a severely restricting, overarching clause affecting all marine conservation areas when it is supposed to be the intent of the bill to zone each area for specific usage, unless of course it is the government's intention to shut down those industries in Canada that rely on the extraction of such materials.

Furthermore, I find it quite strange that members of parliament representing areas of Atlantic Canada would not strongly object to such a clause since some of them hail from a province like Newfoundland, where the famous Hibernia offshore drilling program has successfully and, may I say, in an environmental manner penetrated the ocean's floor, and its very existence is ensuring the lives and well-being of many Newfoundlanders and Atlantic Canadians. Should such a bill and clause have been introduced prior to the Hibernia project and even prior to any exploration for that project, it possibly would never have been.

I would like to press on in this vein a little further and say that the legislation could prevent any further exploration and development off the shores of Newfoundland. For that matter, it could prevent such development off the shores of Canada, period, be it in our Atlantic, Arctic or Pacific oceans. Of course many will say that is true only if those specific areas are designated as marine conservation areas. That brings me to my next concern with the legislation.

I ask hon. members of the House to take note of clause 5 on page 4. Subclause 5(1) is most distressing and represents what is fundamentally wrong with the government. It seriously undermines the effectiveness of elected representatives in the House. I believe that once the members in the Chamber today hear what I will read from the bill they cannot help but understand that there need to be serious changes to the bill for it to be accepted in the Commons. I will quote from subclause 5(1):

Subject to section 7, for the purpose of establishing or enlarging a marine conservation area, consisting of submerged lands and waters within the internal waters, territorial sea or exclusive economic zone of Canada and any coastal lands or islands within Canada, the Governor in Council may, by order, amend Schedule 1 by adding the name and a description of the area or by altering the description of the area.

In plain English what this means is that the Prime Minister and his cabinet can decide out of the blue to create a marine conservation area in any member's riding or backyard. Yes, the bill does recommend that the Minister of Canadian Heritage consult with those she or he deems to be affected people, but it does not guarantee that their opinions will be heard and agreed to. It is conceivable, should parts of the St. Lawrence be considered a marine conservation area, that the government could restrict or reduce fishery catch levels for various species, or even shipping levels. The heritage minister might even choose some of the most fertile fishing grounds on the east coast or, for that matter, the west coast, and deem them marine conservation areas. There would be nothing we as elected members of parliament could do about it.

How does the minister think this will sit with Canadians and more so with coastal communities whose very survival in many cases depends on the resources they can extract from the sea? The power the bill in this clause takes away from Canadians and their parliament and places in the hands of a very few insiders, cabinet members, is appalling. I know my constituents will not stand for it and neither will I.

I implore members of the House to demand the amendment of the clause and to return the power of creation and enlargement of these marine conservation areas to the hands of parliament, where it will receive much reflection, consultation and thought. We are accountable to our constituents and to Canadians.

I know my comments in the House today may seem strong and passionate, but when I read on to the end of clause 5 to subclause 5(3) my blood really boils. There is no doubt that Canadians listening today should be outraged at the fact that cabinet is the sole body creating and enlarging marine conservation areas. However, it should incense them even more to learn that the body that creates these areas does not have the power to reduce or eliminate them.

Let me explain. It is all right for the government to expedite the creation of these marine conservation areas and to wield the swift power of cabinet to that end, but to reduce or eliminate an area would take an act of parliament. Allow me to read once again from the bill. I would ask members to take note of subclause 5(3) on page 5:

No amendment may be made by the Governor in Council to Schedule 1 for the purpose of removing any portion of a marine conservation area.

Of course I agree that parliament should be the body deciding on whether or not a marine conservation area should be designated. However, what Canadians may not realize is that only the government can raise in the House an amendment to an act of parliament, meaning that it would have to be the will of the government of the day to amend or remove a marine conservation area. It would not be up to individual members to do so. Although we as elected members would have the opportunity to debate such a bill, we could not make any changes on our own.

It is also important to note that it is not uncommon for a bill to take up to one year to make its way through the House of Commons and its standing committee, to the Senate and then to receive royal assent. Depending on the priority the government places on the bill, it could take even longer.

We know that in reality the time a bill spends in the House of Commons or the Senate is controlled by the government. It has been known to push bills through in weeks and it has also dragged its heels on some bills for years, not unlike what has happened to the history of this bill, I might add.

The point I am trying to make is that the government does not need to abrogate its democratic responsibility by allowing clause 5 to stand. It already has the power to push bills into law and could create as many marine conservation areas as it likes.

I would urge the government to do the right thing and allow parliament its due evaluation, consultation and amendment of bills relating to specific marine conservation areas, not ram this omnibus piece of legislation through the House.

I would ask members to support amendments to the legislation that would see the need for the government to introduce specific legislation for every marine conservation area it plans to designate.

I would ask members to support amendments to remove clause 13. As mentioned, that clause would eliminate the ability to ever extract resources from the marine conservation areas regardless of the environmental viability of any project.

I will leave you and my hon. colleagues with these final words of caution and conscience. Members should ask themselves how their constituents would react if their fishing grounds were to become protected under the bill. How would their constituents feel if their activities, those which, I might add, put food on their tables and clothes on their children's backs, could not be continued? What if they were told they could not work or that the bill would drastically affect the future of their community? I would venture to suggest members of parliament would want to consult widely, bring their concerns to the attention of the minister and have their day in the House to express those opinions and to convince their colleagues to support their endeavours.

As this bill currently stands, hon. members will never have that opportunity. That is wrong. Therefore I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following therefor: Bill C-10, An Act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, be not now read a second time but that the Order be discharged, the Bill withdrawn and the subject matter thereof referred to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 2nd, 2001 / 4:45 p.m.
See context

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-10, an act respecting the national—they have now become national—marine conservation areas of Canada. They were only marine conservation areas before. Now they have become national marine conservation areas. It is a huge change that occurred between the 36th and the 37th parliaments.

For the benefit of the people who are watching us, I would like to remind the House that, in the first session of the 36th parliament, the government introduced Bill C-48, which dealt with this issue but left out the word national and just talked about marine conservation areas.

The bill died on the order paper, because the Prime Minister decided to prorogue the House and start a new session.

There was a new throne speech, in which the Prime Minister told us that his government had realized that it was time to put an end to federal-provincial overlap. That was quite a major announcement. We looked forward to see how it would come about. It was a disaster.

Soon after, Bill C-8 was introduced. It came earlier in the session, as we can tell from the number it was given. It was introduced at the beginning of the second session of the 36th parliament.

During the first session, the bill had gone through first and second reading. Witnesses had appeared before the committee, a report had been tabled in the House and recommendations had been made. At the time, we thought that Bill C-8 would include improvements since the government had taken its time and had let public officials, lawyers, parliamentarians and witnesses spend time on it. We thought “All this money will not go to waste; the government will improve Bill C-8".

No such luck. Bill C-8 was a carbon copy of Bill C-48. The bill went through first reading, second reading, and was referred to a committee, which heard witnesses and reported back to the House and made recommendations.

My former colleague, the hon. member for Portneuf who made the wise decision of going back to teaching, would be very disappointed to see Bill C-10, because after spending so much time on Bill C-8, he would feel that it was a waste of his time.

However, in all fairness to the government, I must say that Bill C-10 does include a few changes.

Some changes were made in the preamble. For example, the French version of the old bill provided that marine areas had to be “représentatives et protégées", whereas in the new bill, they must be “protégées et représentatives". It goes without saying that this change, which is found in the preamble, adds a lot to the bill.

The government also seeks to "recognize that the marine environment is fundamental to the social, cultural and economic well-being of people living in coastal communities". If the marine environment is essential to the development of coastal communities, from a social, cultural and economic point of view, why should we have marine areas where people will have to pay, as is the case with every national park? We have beautiful national parks, but we must pay to visit them.

The idea was to protect ecosystems. The idea was to make sure that future generations would see the splendours of this vast country, but those who do not have money can no longer see this natural beauty, because they have to pay to do so.

One has to see how the government behaves. I will use an example with which I am very familiar. I see my colleague from Charlevoix. We both live in a coastal area, an area where there are problems in the lumber industry. What is being done to help our loggers? Nothing.

We have a lot of problems with fishers. What is being done? Sure, there are all kinds of problems. Quotas are being given to other provinces, but the government is even unable to honour Quebec's historic fishing quotas. We are demanding our fair share, but it is being denied. Quotas are being given to people who never had any before, when the policy has always been to honour Quebec's historic quotas.

We have problems with loggers, with fishers, with seasonal workers. We were promised a reform of the employment insurance plan, which is not forthcoming. How do you think our coastal communities will react when the government tries to take their lands to create national marine conservation areas? I think we will be able to occupy our lands to fight expropriation. We will take action in due course.

This government's arrogant attitude in forging ties with the communities will not serve it well when it tries to take their marine property, ignoring all social, cultural and economic considerations. A marine area will not put food on the table for people in our ridings.

There is something else. The government wants to promote an understanding of the marine environment and provide opportunities for research and monitoring. If being ridiculous were fatal, the people in the government over there would all have been dead long ago.

I am going to return to some of the statements referred to by my colleague, which I find extremely important.

In the 1996 report of the auditor general, chapter 31, on the management of national parks by Parks Canada, the auditor general makes the following statement “In the six national parks we reviewed, Parks Canada's biophysical information was out-of-date or incomplete except for La Mauricie".

It seems that everything is fine in La Mauricie National Park. Curiously it is in the Prime Minister's riding. In five national parks out of six that were studied, there were problems with biophysical information. What are we going to do to promote knowledge of the marine environment and encourage research and monitoring activities? How can the minister do so when the parks have been in existence for some time and are incapable of doing this at present?

The text continues "Monitoring the ecological condition of the ecosystems in national parks is a high priority, according to Parks Canada policies and guidelines. However, in many national parks—he looked at six—the ecological conditions are not monitored on a regular, continuing basis." What will be done in the marine parks if this is not even being done in the major parks?

The text also states that management plans for 18 national parks were an average of 12 years old, even though they ought to be reviewed every five years. A fine business: the plans are to be reviewed every five years, but 18 parks had an outdated plan. This is the best that can be said in order to be elegant.

The plans set out strategic guidelines to protect the parks' ecosystems. If the plan is out of date after five years, what state can the ecosystems of the park be in when the business plan is 12 years out of date? That makes no sense.

The auditor general added “Delays in preparing management plans and ecosystem conservation plans reduce Parks Canada's ability to preserve the ecological integrity of national parks".

The auditor general's findings on the state of our national parks were pitiful. He said that in almost the majority of the parks visited there was no link between business plans and management plans. That is pretty terrific.

I wonder why officials are asked to do them if there is no link between the two. The auditor general also expressed concern about the fact that, in some instances, park management plans focus mainly on economic and social factors and little on ecological factors. This is what they are setting up in the parks to protect the ecosystems, and this is the department's last concern. The least of Parks Canada's concerns is looking after ecological factors, the very reason for its existence.

When the government says it is going to do this in marine areas, how can we be expected to believe what is written in black and white? The government's intent, its political desire, is not worth even the cost of the paper these things are written on.

The auditor general is also concerned about the impact of the marketing plan on the preservation of ecosystems. Thanks to its marketing strategy, Parks Canada expects to draw an increasing number of Canadians and foreign visitors, who will stay longer. This is about making more money, not protecting our ecosystems. This strategy should increase visits in off seasons.

We are concerned that Parks Canada's ability to preserve ecological integrity in national parks and ensure sustainable park use will be seriously challenged.

We want the legislation to be updated through Bill C-10, which includes good intentions, but already the government is not capable of doing what it is supposed to do with the parks, and I am not at all convinced that it will be able to do it with marine areas.

Another change is the provision to involve federal and provincial ministers and agencies, affected aboriginal organizations and coastal communities and other persons and bodies, including bodies established under land claims agreements, in the effort to establish and maintain the representative system of marine conservation areas.

Again, I see a good intention. However, when we look at how the government proceeded with the consultations on its own bill, we cannot give any credibility to that process.

When the original bill, Bill C-48 was introduced, we told the government “Show us the results of the consultations that took place". We talked about these consultations in committee. Officials came to meet us and said that consultations were held and that this or that came out. However, when we wanted to get the real results of the consultation process, we had to apply under the Access to Information Act.

You know what happens when you make an access to information request, Mr. Speaker, because you were once an opposition member. What it boils down to is that we have access to nothing, because what we receive are eight and a half by eleven sheets, usually with so many lines blacked out that it is impossible to read the text.

When I was young, we did exercises where we filled in the blanks. It would seem that access to information officials have retained memories of this experience and are supplying us with all sorts of blanks by blacking out the important bits that would allow us to understand the text. Since the text is full of blanks, it takes quite a bit of imagination to be able to make any sense of it.

Consultation produced absolutely nothing. We received 300 sheets of paper. Only 73 of them resembled a sort of little reply coupon, which was attached to the consultation document. Even then, we were unable to see the real results of the consultation.

When the department tells us that the purpose of its bill is to respond to the concerns of those consulted, I say that that is false. There is no evidence of this in the bill. In any case, we are unable to obtain the evidence. When someone is unable to prove what he is telling me when questioned, it is because there is no proof.

If there were, we would be handed the results of a real consultation, without a fuss, and told “Here are the questions we asked, here are the answers we received, and here is what we did with those answers". Instead, we are kept in the dark and told “Yes, we consulted".

It is very important to be increasingly more democratic in this country. The government just had 34 heads of state sign a declaration to the effect that democracy is the most important value. The government should apply democracy here, in our own country, before asking others to do it.

The bill also expands on this. This is an addition to the bill. After all, I can be fair. Clause 2(2) reads as follows:

For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from the protection provided for existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada by the recognition and affirmation of those rights in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

This was added in response to a request that they made or a concern they had expressed. I can see that the government responded positively to that concern, and this is a good thing.

Clause 2(3) provides the following:

The establishment of a marine conservation area within the exclusive economic zone of Canada does not constitute a claim to any rights, jurisdiction or duties beyond those set out in section 14 of the Oceans Act.

Earlier, my colleague pointed out the interesting points in this bill. When the government decided to end the overlap in federal-provincial jurisdictions, it forgot to look at itself.

The government will find itself with all sorts of marine areas. We will no longer know how to distinguish among them, what to call them, or who is responsible for what. I assume that at some point, if something happens, everyone will pass the buck and people will be left asking what is happening and who is responsible for what.

The Department of Canadian Heritage wants to create national marine conservation areas. Under the Oceans Act, Fisheries and Oceans Canada may create marine protection zones.

Frankly, how can one tell the difference between a marine protection zone and a national marine conservation area? The government is playing with words, with concepts, trying to take over as much territory as possible.

Under the Canadian Wildlife Act, the federal government, through Environment Canada, can create national wildlife areas and marine wildlife areas. Under the Migratory Birds Convention Act, it can create migratory bird sanctuaries.

I am thinking about the beautiful area I come from and about my colleague in whose riding the beautiful Saguenay-St.Lawrence park is located. The government might want to create not far from there a national marine conservation area, a marine protection zone or a national wildlife area because they might be useful to have in this area of the country. This would bring in more tourism, since this seems to be the goal. Moreover, a marine wildlife area could be created there, as well as a migratory bird sanctuary.

That would mean five things in the same spot because it is a beautiful area and the federal government will say “It is so beautiful, we are taking it over".

The government always finds a way to get into trouble. I hope that this session will quickly be prorogued, so that this bill will die on the order paper, because the government did not do its homework on this bill.

It has already been considered twice. We will have to ask witnesses to come back, once again. The government will probably say “So many witnesses were brought before the committee that there is nothing more to add". On the contrary, they would say “You did not understand a thing about what we said before".

The bill must be overhauled. It must take into consideration what the public wants. I see that my time is running out, so I will conclude.

I hope the government members have been listening carefully and have realized that the time has come to follow up on things that make sense. I really rely on the member opposite.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 2nd, 2001 / 4:25 p.m.
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Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, before dealing with today's issue, namely marine areas, I would like to point out that the members who are wearing a carnation today are doing so to mark the tough battle that is fought by people suffering from multiple sclerosis, a disease that primarily hits young people, including my daughter.

The bill before us today was introduced in the House by the Liberal government for the third time, after dying on the order paper during each of the two sessions of the last parliament, as Bill C-48 and Bill C-8 respectively.

This government, which is short on ideas, is coming back with the same bill, except for one thing: it has a different number. As for the rest, it is all the same as before. One would have thought that after listening to a large number of witnesses in committee during the last parliament, after hearing the concerns of parliamentarians in this House and after seeking a new mandate from the public, the Minister of Canadian Heritage would have changed her approach.

I would have thought the minister would have gone back to the drawing board to come up with a bill that was a bit more sensitive to the concerns raised by witnesses before the committee and by members in the House. Nothing was done. We are therefore very disappointed.

By introducing a bill which is a carbon copy of the previous version, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and her government have once again ignored anyone who did not share their views. That is why the bill is no more acceptable today than it was earlier.

The purpose of Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, is to provide a legal framework for the establishment of 28 marine conservation areas, representative of each of the Canadian ecosystems. The Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park is the 29th marine conservation area. It will not be governed by this legislation since it already has its own legislation.

It is also important to note that this bill follows a commitment made by the present Prime Minister at the 1996 convention of the World Conservation Union, held in Montreal. On this occasion, as in 1994, the World Conservation Union, which represents 74 governments, 105 government agencies and more than 700 NGOs, passed resolutions calling on all coastal nations to put marine conservation measures in place quickly.

First, I wish to say that the Bloc Quebecois has always been in favour of measures to protect our environment. I remind those listening that the Bloc Quebecois supported the government when it introduced its legislation to create the Saguenay-St. Lawrence Marine Park.

Why is the Bloc Quebecois opposed to this bill? Despite the fact that we support the establishment of environmental protection measures, the Bloc Quebecois opposes it because, instead of focusing on working together, as it did in the case of the Saguenay-St. Lawrence Marine Park or phase III of the St. Lawrence action plan, the federal government is introducing marine conservation areas with no regard for Quebec's jurisdiction over its territory and environment.

Heritage Canada is planning to introduce a new structure, marine conservation areas, which will duplicate the marine protection zones of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the protected marine areas of Environment Canada.

Heritage Canada wants to have marine conservation areas, while it has shown itself incapable of protecting the ecosystems in existing national parks.

One of the conditions essential to the establishment of a marine conservation area is federal ownership of the land where the area is to be established. Moreover, clause 5(2) of the bill provides that the minister cannot establish a marine conservation area, unless, and I quote: a ) the Governor in Council is satisfied that Her Majesty in right of Canada has clear title to or an unencumbered right of ownership in the lands to be included in the marine conservation area, other than such lands situated within the exclusive economic zone of Canada;

There is a fairly significant legal problem here, because subsection 92(5) of the Constitution Act, 1867, recognizes that the management and sale of crown land are matters of exclusive provincial jurisdiction. There is therefore no federal title in this context.

Furthermore, Quebec legislation on crown lands, passed by the Quebec national assembly, applies to all crown lands in Quebec, including the beds of waterways and lakes and the bed of the St. Lawrence river, estuary and gulf, which belong to Quebec by sovereign right.

In addition, this legislation provides that Quebec cannot transfer its lands to the federal government. The only thing it can do is to authorize the federal government to use them only in connection with matters under federal jurisdiction.

According to the notes provided us by the Minister of Canadian Heritage with regard to the bill before us, marine conservation areas are planned for the St. Lawrence, the St. Lawrence estuary and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. These are three areas in which the ocean floor is under Quebec's jurisdiction.

This almost sick propensity for the federal government to interfere where it has no business being is quite simply unacceptable. Fortunately, the Bloc Quebecois is here to remind it of this, and to condemn its actions.

This approach is even more incomprehensible because co-operative mechanisms already exist to protect ecosystems in the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park, and in the St. Lawrence River under the agreement entitled "St. Lawrence action plan, phase III" which was signed by all federal departments and Quebec departments concerned.

There are two examples that should be followed: the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park and phase III of the St. Lawrence action plan.

In 1977, the governments of Quebec and Canada passed identical acts to create the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park. This resulted in the creation of Canada's first marine conservation area.

One of the main features of that legislation is that the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park is the first Marine Park to be created jointly by the federal and Quebec governments, without any transfer of territory. The two governments will continue to fulfil their respective responsibilities.

This park includes only marine areas. Its boundaries may be changed only through an agreement between the two governments, provided there is joint public consultation in that regard.

This ought to have served as a model for the federal government in the creation of other marine conservation areas, but no.

Another model that the Minister of Canadian Heritage could have followed is phase III of the St. Lawrence action plan. That phase, which was announced on June 8, 1998, represented a total investment of $230 million that was shared equally by both levels of government.

Why does the heritage minister not follow these two successful initiatives and why is she now claiming exclusive ownership of the seabed to set up marine conservation areas, when partnerships in the area of the environment have so far been successful?

We wonder about the true intentions of the Minister of Canadian Heritage. Will the federal government respect Quebec's constitutional territorial rights in that regard, or will it again ignore it to create marine areas where it believes such areas are necessary?

The environment is a shared jurisdiction. Let us never forget that, under the Constitution Act, 1867, the governments of Canada and Quebec share responsibility for the environment.

Under section 92(1)( a ) of the Constitution Act, 1867, Quebec passed an act respecting the conservation and development of wildlife that specifies, in section 2, the role to be played by the Quebec minister of the environment and wildlife. It is the following:

The Minister of the Environment and Fauna ensures the conservation and development of wildlife and wildlife habitats.

Under Quebec's legislation, the minister also has the authority to appoint conservation officers.

By refusing to use the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park Act as a model and by making title to the territory an essential condition for the establishment of marine conservation areas, the federal government would be able to establish marine conservation areas on submerged lands to which it claims to have title and thus bypass Quebec's environmental jurisdictions.

This is why it is important to be on the lookout and to reject any form of regulation or action which would undermine the national assembly of Quebec in this regard.

The Bloc Quebecois will not let the federal government have its way on this issue nor let it fulfil its insatiable desire to trivialize our institutions, our rights and our laws, just as it is not giving in on social policy in the young offenders legislation saga.

Respect for the integrity of Quebec's territory alone justifies the fight the Bloc Quebecois is waging against this bill, but there are other reasons we must oppose it.

The federal government intends to create marine conservation areas under the responsibility of Heritage Canada, so there is a lot of overlap within the federal government. On the one hand, there is Heritage Canada and, on the other, there are marine protection areas under the responsibility of Fisheries and Oceans and marine wildlife areas under the responsibility of Environment Canada. A lot of people are involved here.

One question immediately comes to mind. What are Heritage Canada's reasons for establishing marine conservation areas? They can be found in the preamble to this bill.

It is establishing marine conservation areas “to protect natural, self-regulating marine ecosystems for the maintenance of biological diversity"; second, “to establish a representative system of marine conservation areas"; third, “to ensure that Canada contributes to international efforts for the establishment of a worldwide network of representative marine areas"; fourth, “to provide opportunities for the people of Canada and of the world to appreciate Canada's natural and cultural marine heritage"; and, fifth, “to provide opportunities within marine conservation areas for the ecologically sustainable use of marine resources for the lasting benefit of coastal communities".

As for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, it proposed the establishment of marine protected areas. However, in a discussion paper released by Fisheries and Oceans in January 1997 and entitled “An Approach to the establishment and Management of Marine Protected Areas under the Oceans Act", the purpose of marine conservation areas is also described.

In both cases, we are told that local people will have a significant involvement in the establishment of marine protected areas. I wonder how many information or organization meetings local people will be invited to in order to satisfy its bureaucracy.

Finally, Environment Canada is proposing, so as not to be left behind, to establish marine and wildlife reserves, expanding the notion of the national wildlife sanctuary beyond the territorial sea to the 200 mile limit within the exclusive economic zone under the Canadian Oceans Act.

These areas are also subject to the Canadian Wildlife Act, but require a different set of regulations, as the Fisheries and Oceans Canada discussion paper states on page 49. It is quite the pandemonium from what I can see.

At the hearings in February 1999, almost all coastal groups who appeared before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to speak out against this bill emphasized their lack of understanding of the federal government's position.

They argued that the Canadian heritage initiative would duplicate what is already being done by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and create a great deal of confusion.

I will read from some of the testimony given. According to Patrick McGuinness, vice-president of the Fisheries Council of Canada:

If the challenge for Canadian industry in the milieu of globalization is to be streamlined and efficient, we should be able to demand government structures that are also focused and streamlined. Regardless of the merits of MCAs, of this initiative, the manner in which it is brought forward will lead to confusion, duplication and conflicts in its implementation

Quoting from another witness, Marc Kielly, executive director, Newfoundland, Aquaculture Industry Association:

To empower the Minister of Canadian Heritage for the MCA initiative effectively undermines the authority and mandate of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans as provided for under the provisions of the Oceans Act. This should not be permitted to occur.

Here is another excerpt, from the testimony by John Melindy, project co-ordinator, NMCA feasibility study advisory committee:

Now, through the Oceans Act, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is empowered to declare marine protected areas to conserve species under threat. In view of this fact, we are mystified as to why Canadian Heritage is attempting to run a parallel conservation initiative under a separate piece of legislation.

Why, then, call witnesses and then not pay any attention to their concerns? Why not look into the areas we were directed to by the various witnesses?

One thing is clear. The government would have been better advised to have a single department oversee the protection of ecosystems and the departments concerned conclude a framework agreement delegating their responsibilities to the one chosen to be accountable in this matter, but the Minister of Canadian Heritage refuses to listen to reason.

A number of witnesses emphasized the duplications within the bill, but that is not all. Is there even more confusion in this bill? If you answer yes, you hit the jackpot.

As unbelievable as it may seem, the bill provides that each federal department will retain its own jurisdiction over the marine conservation areas.

However, when the Department of Canadian Heritage deems it appropriate, it may, in co-operation with the department concerned, adopt regulations regarding a marine conservation area that differ from the existing provisions.

Although this might seem normal in other circumstances, the difficulties can only increase when Heritage Canada regulations are enforced in marine protected areas, marine wildlife reserves and marine conservation areas, each with their own regulations.

We have another good reason for opposing this bill: Heritage Canada is incapable of protecting the ecosystems in existing national parks.

In 1996, the Auditor General of Canada published chapter 31 on the management of national parks by Parks Canada. In this chapter, the auditor general made some, to say the least, embarrassing observations, some of which follow:

Monitoring the ecological condition of the ecosystems in national parks is a high priority, according to Parks Canada policies and guidelines. However, in many national parks, the ecological conditions are not monitored on a regular, continuing basis.

On average, the management plans for the 18 national parks were 12 years old, when they should have been reviewed every five years. The park management plans provide strategic direction for the protection of park ecosystems.

The auditor general added:

Delays in preparing management plans and ecosystem conservation plans reduce Parks Canada's ability to preserve the ecological integrity of national parks.

They cannot do their own homework regarding the follow up on national parks. How will they be able to do it for marine areas? The auditor general went even further when he said:

We are concerned that Parks Canada's ability to preserve ecological integrity in national parks and ensure sustainable park use will be seriously challenged.

Before duplicating what is basically being done elsewhere, including with marine wildlife reserves by Fisheries and Oceans, would it not be logical for the Minister of Canadian Heritage to ensure that national parks ecosystems are protected for future generations, as stated in the National Parks Act?

This bill is a means that the Liberal government wants to have to impose its centralizing vision.

This is a government that is anxious to intrude in provincial jurisdictions. With this bill, we are seeing the exact opposite of the “flexible federalism" that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs boasts about.

Thank goodness the Bloc Quebecois is there to condemn what the federal government is planning on doing, namely to duplicate and totally lack any consistency.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

May 2nd, 2001 / 4 p.m.
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Canadian Alliance

Cheryl Gallant Canadian Alliance Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to speak as the official opposition critic for Canadian heritage on this bill, Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, at second reading.

What we have before us today is the third attempt to pass this legislation. This bill was Bill C-48, then Bill C-8 in the last parliament, and now returns as Bill C-10 in this parliament. What does this tell us about the commitment of the government to this legislation? It tells us that the commitment is not very great and it is very evident why. Even after three tries this legislation remains seriously flawed.

First, let us not be fooled by the language that was originally used to introduce this legislation. I certainly would not disagree with a proposal that would require marine conservation areas to be established for the protection and conservation of “representative marine areas of Canadian significance” and would be “for the benefit, education and enjoyment of the people of Canada and the world”.

However, upon closer inspection the bill does far more than the government is prepared to admit.

The first area of concern I wish to draw attention to is one involving the consultation process and where these 29 representative marine conservation areas are to be established. As with the first two bills, in this current bill the schedule is blank.

What is the government afraid of? The government is afraid that the same thing will happen as what occurred in the Bonavista and Notre Dame Bays area in Newfoundland, when political pressure from the local Liberal member, and I suspect from the current industry minister and former premier, stopped a marine conservation area from going forward.

I am not criticizing the former member for Bonavista—Trinity—Conception for representing his constituents and their well founded fears that unemployment and economic hardship would follow the good intentions of a federal bureaucrat over 2,000 kilometres away in a comfy office, drawing a salary of $100,000 a year.

What about those ridings that have upheld the democratic process and elected a member of the loyal opposition or, worse, have an elected or weak or too compliant member of the government?

We have real fears when we read the literature from the minister's department that talks about replacing the checks, balances and safeguards of parliament for, in the words of her department, the “simple, cost-effective procedure” of order in council to establish or enlarge marine conservation areas. Previous debates have pointed out this very serious flaw and yet here it is a third time and still this flaw remains.

I pay tribute to my colleague, the member for Dauphin—Swan River, for his input when this bill was Bill C-48. He very clearly pointed out the Henry VIII clauses in the bill. I encourage recently elected members of the House to read the hon. member's speech. Henry VIII believed in the divine right to rule and was always looking for ways to sidestep parliament and its ultimate authority as an elected body. It seems some things never change.

The current process, where the act has to be opened up and amended when a new national park is contemplated or changes to an existing park are considered, may not be as efficient as the government would like but it is consistent with our democratic heritage.

As the government is now beginning to realize, democracy can be messy. It is this style of legislation, the Bill C-10s, that will span more Quebec City types of demonstrations. As this government seeks new and creative ways to exclude people from the democratic process, unfortunately we will all pay the price with a fractured nation. Separatism feeds on these sorts of government dictates. If the minister were truly interested in freedom of speech, she would not be proposing government by order in council legislation.

The people of Canada have much to fear from the consultation process of the Department of Canadian Heritage. The process is so flawed that not only does it ignore the advice of the people, it will not follow the advice of its own studies. Nowhere is this more evident today than in the example of Parks Canada and its reaction to a health and safety issue regarding park wardens.

The minister should know that there have been three separate reports since 1993 that have identified unsafe working conditions for park wardens, particularly with the significant increase in fines for poaching in our national parks. Park wardens are being put at greater and greater risk in the performance of their duties.

It took a ruling from the HRDC labour program inspector to force the department to respond. Did the department and the minister do the right thing and accept the recommendations of three separate reports, recommendations, I might add, that are supported by the Public Service Alliance of Canada and the Animal Alliance of Canada? No.

The minister chose to ignore the best advice given and is blundering forward with an ill conceived and costly measure that makes no sense at all. It is very clear that the minister has a very poor record when it comes to taking good advice.

The only reason we in the official opposition can see for the government to ignore its own advice would be because of some hidden agenda. The reported plan to replace park wardens with RCMP officers, with a detachment in every national park in Canada, is absolutely sinister. What better way for a federal government to enforce unpopular laws, laws that the provincial governments want no part of, than to do it with its own police force?

As the federal government enacts more unpopular laws on an unwilling rural population, how convenient that the federal police officers are there for the Liberal government to call upon.

This labour dispute that Parks Canada is having with its park wardens will impact upon this legislation in a very significant manner. Clauses 18 to 23 of Bill C-10, the enforcement section of the act, in the current labour dispute means the act would not be enforced. It is one thing to require RCMP officers on land to go after poachers. Has the minister, in her $37 million request to the treasury board for the money to replace park wardens with RCMP officers, also put in a request for boats?

This is beginning to sound like the gun registry boondoggle, where an $85 million cost has skyrocketed to $600 million and counting. The people of the city of Pembroke in my riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke are currently in the process of raising the money locally to buy a CAT scanner, thanks to the federal government's two tier health care policy. That $637 million would save a lot of lives in the community of Pembroke and a lot in other parts of rural Canada.

I and members of the official opposition are very concerned about the consultative process, based on the concerns expressed to our members over the bias of this government against rural Canadians.

While I understand that the letter from the Mayor of Kitimat was made available to the members on the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage when this legislation was called Bill C-48, I would like to quote from his letter as I believe it to be a fair reflection of the thoughts and feelings of rural Canadians:

Sadly, urban Canadians and senior levels of government seldom grasp the values associated with rural life, whether it be fishing, farming or forestry. All too often, regulation and legislation occurs that impacts rural Canada and rural Canadians significantly, while having little or no impact on urban life and, therefore, is supported wholeheartedly by the non-rural vote. In the best case scenario governments end up conceding ignorance. At other times a blatant disregard for rural Canadians occurs and is only rectified once social or economic crisis occurs.

It continues:

As a misunderstood rural population, we often wish the same commitment and daily practice toward our environment would be evident in urban centres. Often it appears that those who push for environmental and conservation laws do not enact the same values with their own regions...We understand our rural and remote populations are small, however...we chose to live in rural locations. At best, it is our hope that Canada be governed based on assessed needs and values of all Canadians...Further, we hope that persistent inaccuracies and ignorance of rural and remote lifestyles can be overcome.

The letter is quite a bit longer. However, I hope the essence of what the mayor was trying to convey about the legislation is apparent. The majority of Canadians, especially those of us in rural Canada, do not trust the federal bureaucracy to represent our interests fairly.

Even when we get good people who as public servants are trying to do the best job possible, they are overruled by their political masters, as is the case with the park wardens. Too often our interests have been sacrificed to political expediency.

There are too many votes for the Liberals in the city of Toronto to require it to deal with its own garbage. It is so much easier to dump it in someone else's backyard, in this case the backyard of the people in the riding of Timiskaming—Cochrane, near the pretty town of Kirkland Lake. Better to lose one seat than to jeopardize that big urban vote, and this government wonders why rural people should fear Ottawa when cynical calculations such as this are made by a troika of political manipulators. Actions speak louder than words. Where was the Minister of the Environment? For a government that is constantly looking for ways to intrude into areas of provincial jurisdiction, it suddenly became remarkably silent on the issue of Toronto's garbage.

I am optimistic that maybe this time, the third time the legislation has come forward, the government might surprise Canadians and address some of these concerns. For this I look beyond the minister and her cabinet cohorts to her caucus colleagues, in particular those MPs who represent rural constituencies.

Those Ontario MPs whose ridings border the Great Lakes should be very concerned about how the legislation will adversely impact farmers, fishing enthusiasts, resort operators and other small business people who are the backbone of our nation. They should not be fooled by the soothing words of the minister and her bureaucrats when they tell them not to worry, be happy.

How about the farmer who sprays his or her crops with herbicide? Once the marine parks act is in place the regulators will move into the watersheds. The legislation will finish off those farmers who have not already been pushed out of business by foreign subsidies.

The people of Newfoundland got off lucky when the marine conservation area in their backyard was stopped. Will others be so lucky when the legislation is passed? It was lucky for them when they raised their objections that it was not yet law. Do rural constituents favour letting the bill drop the way it was the first two times?

It is ironic that the minister's own riding borders Lake Ontario. It has been pointed out previously that her own legislation could be used to shut down her constituents' largest employer. Cootes Paradise is certainly a unique waterfront, so unique in fact that several years ago the answer to the pollution in Hamilton harbour was to pave the bay. I am very surprised that the minister is proceeding with the legislation that has the real possibility of doing great harm to her constituents.

By the department of heritage's own admission there is already enough federal and provincial legislation in place to protect and conserve heritage resources. Federal-provincial agreements are in place for marine conservation areas in Ontario and British Columbia.

Currently federal legislation is in place for the Saguenay region of the St. Lawrence River in Quebec. The federal legislation for St. Lawrence park was accompanied by complementary provincial legislation. Obviously the Quebec government saw the threat of federal intrusion and reacted accordingly. Why is there a need for the legislation other than the usual power grab by the Liberals?

It is no secret that the Liberal government is being pressured by NAFTA and the United States to allow bulk water sales. The trial balloon floated by the member for Toronto—Danforth before the summit of the Americas was no coincidence. Some Canadians are concerned that Bill C-10 is a Trojan horse for bulk water sales.

The legislation clearly impacts on provincial jurisdiction and would give the Liberal government the wedge it needs to start negotiations for bulk water export from the Great Lakes to the United States. These people are concerned that the government operates on the basis of multiple hidden agendas, except this agenda for water sales is being exposed for what it is.

What a coincidence that at the same time as Bill C-10 shows up on the parliamentary agenda a sister bill, Bill C-6, shows up. Surprise, surprise, it is all about licences for those people who want to engage in bulk water exports.

Perhaps it should be the Minister of Foreign Affairs who is identified as the sponsor of the bill. The legislation is a clear encroachment into an area of provincial jurisdiction. Once the bill is in place, the minister has arranged for any changes to be by order in council and thus avoid public debate in the House of Commons and in the media.

The province of Ontario is on record as opposing bulk water exports from the Great Lakes, and the federal government is currently unable to act without provincial agreement.

The legislation is conceived in such a way as to avoid that scrutiny. I challenge the federal government to accept amendments to the legislation that would expressly prohibit the bulk export of water from the Great Lakes and a clearer definition of sustainable use in national marine conservation areas.

The decision about whether Canada should or should not allow for the bulk export of water should be done in open and in public. The Toronto Star , as the in house organ of the Liberal Party, is opposed to bulk water sales. We know the government is deathly afraid of doing anything to disturb that Toronto vote and recriminations that would be heaped upon it by the Star in any debate regarding water.

The government is government by stealth. Unlike the Liberals we in the official opposition want open debate regarding any issue that impacts the public. Barring that and other changes we in the official opposition intend to propose, we are willing to tell the government to let the bill drop once again until, and only until, the concerns of all Canadians are met.

It is clear that the third time out the government is timid about Bill C-10 in public. I have had the privilege of meeting some parliamentarians on the government side who feel the same way the rest of us do who represent rural constituencies and must share the same fears I have expressed about this type of legislation.

The legislation, even if it were needed, is too flawed to go forth in its current form. We in the Canadian Alliance affirm the role of the federal government in the preservation of Canada's natural and historic heritage such as national parks.

We also affirm the right of Canada as a sovereign nation to govern itself in a way that benefits all its people. We do not recognize the inevitable loss of sovereignty every time the Prime Minister goes off and makes a commitment before an international body, in this case the IUCN World Conservation Congress in October 1996, without first consulting the people who will be most severely affected by such an agreement.

More important, we require the input of parliament before the people of Canada are put on the hook for something they may be very unwilling to support. The pretext for the legislation was that it was an international agreement. I do not believe the framers of that agreement at the UN intended the Government of Canada to use it in any other way to erode democracy in Canada.

This is not an issue for the Minister of Canadian Heritage. This is legislation, albeit in a greatly changed form, that more properly should be in the name of the Minister of the Environment. This point was made previously in debate on Bill C-48 and Bill C-8. The point needs to be emphasized here again: the issues before us and our international commitments concerning the environment should remain with that ministry.

On behalf of the Canadian Alliance I would like to be able to support legislation to create national marine conservation areas. However as the legislation is presented it is not justified in its current form.

I would now like to respond to those individuals who might be tempted to say that we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater because there are some worthwhile aspects of the bill that we surely can support. To those individuals I say there is nothing in the bill the government could not accomplish if it would just sit down and take the time to talk to the provinces, which in turn would require the federal government to talk to those communities that would be affected by the creation of a marine park. As proposed, the shortcut the bill is all about is not acceptable.

In conclusion, I call upon the minister to send the bill back to the drawing board. Maybe the fourth time out the government can get it right.

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

April 30th, 2001 / 12:50 p.m.
See context

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to the upcoming changes for the FCC. I am speaking on behalf of our agricultural critic, the hon. member for Palliser, who unfortunately could not be with us today.

Also a special hello and thanks to the dozens of farmers in my riding of Musquodoboit Valley. They are some of the best producers in the entire country. I am very proud to stand in the House to represent them and quite proudly say to them that I and my party support the thrust of this bill, although there are always a couple of cautions that need to be addressed.

Overall, we thank the government for these much needed changes. Similar to our colleague from the Bloc, we hope they pass fairly quickly. Above all we hope the constant consultation and dialogue with the main producers and with those people directly affected by the legislation continues. That dialogue is extremely important for the future.

Who could forget the crisis in the agricultural industry over the last few years? Many of us were at farm rallies on the Hill and at rallies held throughout the country, especially in the prairie provinces. Statistics show that over the last two years 22,000 families in the western provinces alone have left the farm. If that does not constitute a crisis in the industry, I am not sure what does.

Being a fairly new MP, going into my fourth year in this place, I always felt that it should be up to the Government of Canada, irrespective of one's political leanings, to look after our agricultural industry. If we do not do this to the best of our ability then unfortunately we will seriously neglect what I consider the most important industry in Canada.

When members had breakfast this morning and when they have dinner tonight, I hope they appreciate the people who are willing to get up at all hours of the day to sow the seeds so our families can be nourished. I think I speak for all members of parliament when I say we are extremely proud of the Canadian agriculture industry. We are very proud of the thousands of farmers and their families who toil in the fields and factories so we can provide nourishment to our families on an ongoing basis. Above all they do it fairly cheaply.

Food costs in Canada as compared to other countries are relatively inexpensive. People who suffer through tight financial times always worry about the cost of putting food on the table. When we look at the overall picture of what it costs to put food on our table compared to other items which we purchase such as shelter, clothing, home heating oil et cetera, food is relatively inexpensive. Therein lies one of the problems we are facing today.

The price that producers get for their product is very low. This is one of the crises we have. Wheat is made into bread and the bread is sold in the stores but the price of that generally goes to the middle man; the marketers, store owners and so on. If a loaf of bread cost $1, I believe the primary producer may get about 6 cents. That has to change so our primary producers who feed us and export to other countries get better value for the work they do.

The FCC is a wonderful institution for farmers when they need to diversify or when they need to purchase new equipment in order to ascertain future funding so they can carry on their business.

A young man from Saskatchewan with his family and many other farmers appeared before our caucus a few months ago to describe the scene on the family farm. I asked this young man, who was about 12 years old, if he was going into farming like his father and grandfather. He said no. I asked if there was anybody else in his classroom who was thinking about taking up agriculture as a livelihood. The young man again said no. That begs this question: Who are going to be the farmers of tomorrow? We know who the farmers are today, and many of them are going through a crisis because they are not sure if they will be able to make out the year.

Nobody likes to go from crisis to crisis year in and year out. Farmers know very well that historically there have been great years and poor years. They have always got through those years. However a tremendous number of farmers from coast to coast, not just in the prairies but in Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada, are going through a very difficult time. Anything the federal government can do to assist them should be done very quickly.

It appalls me at times when I hear the federal government say that it has a new aid package based on provincial funding and that it will give $6 out of every dollar for aid but the provinces have to come up with the other $4. Nova Scotia is going through a pretty severe debt and deficit situation right now. It simply does not have additional funding to give to its farmers.

Nova Scotia rightfully says that if the federal government is swimming in billions of dollars of taxpayer money then at least it should assist those provinces and others with more funding for farmers, at least to get them through this crisis stage so they can set up long term arrangements for the future.

I know the federal agriculture minister from Ontario is a decent fellow, but he made a comment regarding P.E.I. potato farmers that I am sure he will live to regret for the rest of his days. He said that maybe those potato producers should grow something else because of the recent battle with the United States.

That is easy for someone to say, but P.E.I. grows some of the best potatoes on the entire planet. They have diversified in potato farming. The infrastructure, the machinery, the plants and the workers were set up for that. Then the federal agriculture minister turns around and says that the battle with the United States is pretty tough so maybe they should grow something else.

If the federal minister honestly believes that, which I am sure he probably does not, then P.E.I. potato producers should say “Okay, Mr. Minister, if we are to diversify, what should we diversify into? Is the federal government going to provide the funding for us to diversify?” If that is indeed the case, the minister should back it up with dollars and then maybe some of those producers will grow something else. If the minister is suggesting that they need to grow something else after they already grow the number one potato product in the country—at least that is my biased opinion, coming as I do from Atlantic Canada—then he should at least back it up with some dollars.

Overall the changes in the FCC are positive, as long as the FCC continues to focus on the primary producer. That is essential. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture has indicated to us that it has no overall objections to the legislation. Credit Union Central of Canada, representing credit unions across the country, formed a committee to study this legislation. During the consultation process it fully supported the proposal as long as credit unions could participate in some of the services, equity financing and partnerships. This of course would include the caisses populaires of Quebec.

This aspect of it is extremely important. Bill C-8, the financial restructuring act, is now going through the House. It has gone through this place and is on its way to the Senate, ready for royal assent. It will create great change in the financial sector in the country. When all those changes happen it will be extremely important to ensure that agencies such as credit unions and caisses populaires, which play vitally important roles in our country, especially in rural Canada where most of our farms and primary producers are based, have an important say and a role in the future of how FCC does its business. If they do, they will continue to have our support.

The National Farmers Union is concerned that the FCC may soften its focus on family farms and primary production. The government and the FCC have made a commitment that farming and the primary producer would continue to be the main focus of the corporation. That is essential.

In order to maintain the so far lukewarm support of the National Farmers Union, which represents a tremendous number of farmers across the country, it is imperative that the government and whatever party is in government years down the road continue that important dialogue with groups such as the National Farmers Union to ensure that primary producers rural communities and those family farms are indeed integral to any decisions made.

The best way to do that is with open and transparent consultation. The federal government has been blamed many times—I think of the Sea King operation for example—for hiding behind its words, for other concerns it tries to hide from, and for not being completely open and transparent. I beg the government to ensure that it does not do this with our agricultural concerns. That would be a very sad thing.

The corporation's main focus would continue to be small and medium sized operations that contribute to local communities. We have to take the government and the directors of the FCC at their word. If indeed that is correct, they will have our support and the support of many family farms throughout the country.

However, again I would like to remind the government and those in opposition right across the country that it is imperative to maintain that and not lose sight of the main focus in years to come.

In fact, the FCC has only a handful of accounts with businesses that have revenues over $5 million. The majority of its day to day business is indeed with small and medium sized family farms. That is extremely important.

Another concern in regard to a lot of family farms these days is lease financing. Under the new legislation the FCC would offer lease financing directly to or in partnership with agricultural operators. There is a growing need for lease financing in the agricultural industry for operators who want to manage cash flows with increased flexibility. The 1993 act does not prevent FCC from offering lease financing. However, the new amendments clarify the scope of the corporation's service in that area. More important, with a more flexible financial structure the FCC will be able to create subsidiaries to partner with other organizations in offering more comprehensive financial packages.

With Bill C-8 and the concentration of our financial institutions, it is very important, at least in my mind, that farmers and primary producers have the option and flexibility to look for the best rates when it comes to their lending needs. The corporation would have access to additional financial management tools to secure its portfolio and offer expanded services to agricultural operations. A more flexible financial structure contributes to the viability of the FCC and its ability to serve agriculture in the long term. That is definitely what is needed.

The country deserves and demands an agricultural policy from A to Z that really meets the needs of the family farm and medium sized producers and ascertains and tells Canadians once and for all that in this country we will be able now and in the future to feed ourselves. An awful lot of people are concerned that we as a country may be losing our agricultural sovereignty. We simply cannot allow that.

I could not help but notice that one of the greatest fighters for the family farm, a gentleman from Ontario, is in the House today. I thank him for his personal efforts in bringing the issue of the family farm to the House of Commons and to his own government. He should be complimented for his work in creating awareness of the crisis on the family farm.

There are other concerns throughout the country. We would like to ensure that the family farm issue is not just not a debate in the House and is then forgotten. We would like the family farm issue to continue in the House and we would like to ensure that when changes need to occur we can meet those changes along the way.

It gives me great pleasure every September and October when I come to Ottawa to bring with me about 100 pounds of Annapolis Valley apples of various descriptions. I hand them out.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

April 2nd, 2001 / 5 p.m.
See context

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words in the debate on the bill before the House today. In a way it is an omnibus bill and it deals with a couple of radically different items.

The first one is the appropriation of considerable sums of money to the Canada foundation for innovation. In fact we would appropriate, if this bill passes in the House of Commons, $1.25 billion to that particular foundation. The other item deals with a small but important change to the Canada pension plan.

I notice a greater propensity now on the part of the government to introduce omnibus bills and I think it is wrong in principle. We are dealing with two fundamentally different items here, and it would be easier to vote intelligently on a bill like this if these items were separate.

We have just come through that with Bill C-8, the changes to the financial institutions legislation. There were massive changes in the bill, which was 900 pages thick and amended 1,400 pages of statutes. That makes it difficult for members of parliament to properly scrutinize bills.

That being said, in terms of the Canada pension legislation change here I would like to say a few words about the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. They are important to put on the record. The investment board is an innovation of the Government of Canada, whereby a small portion of CPP deductions from employers and employees will be or are invested privately in the stock market. Overseeing that investment in the stock market and advising where to invest is of course the new investment board of the Canada pension plan. The board has 12 directors. If my memory serves me correctly there is one director per province, which makes nine, because the Quebec pension plan is a totally separate organization and institution, and three from the federal government. The chair of the board is named from among those 12 people. The Minister of Finance will seek advice from each of the provincial ministers of finance and then appoint the 12 members of the board.

What is missing here is a small move to democratize the board. The Canada pension plan is a plan which has ordinary Canadian workers' money in it, so I think that on the board there should be representatives of the working people themselves, from trade unions, from retirees, who can provide valuable advice regarding the investments of the board. When we are looking at the investment of workers' money this should be one of the amendments the government should accept, that is, to have on the board people who represent the workers and the trade unions themselves. That is only fair in terms of dealing with the workers' money. There should be representatives of the workers on the board. That is a fundamental principle of democracy and it is important in order to democratize that particular institution.

In terms of the Canada foundation for innovation, I think all parties in the House are in support of the concept or the principle that we need more money for research and development. If we look at the history of our country, we will see that we are one of the few industrialized countries in the world that does not put much of our GDP into research and development. We have a very small proportion of our GDP in research and development compared to the United States, Germany, France or many countries in western Europe. We have to move more in that direction in terms of money going into R and D. This is a bill that is going in the right direction in those terms.

The Canada foundation for innovation became law in the 35th parliament, which is two parliaments ago. If memory serves me correctly it became law in April 1997. I had a chance today to take a look at some of the expenditures of the foundation. I must add that this is not a foundation that utilizes only public money. There is also money from the private sector. I assume the universities and provinces all participate in the foundation.

I would like to take a few minutes to read into the record the kinds of projects the foundation is supporting. Up to March 31 of this year, 1,175 projects had been funded, for a total of $873 million. That is a considerable amount of money going into research and development, technology, research centres and so on, which I believe is very important.

I will round off these figures to the nearest million. In British Columbia, 134 projects were approved for $110 million. That represents about 14.2% of the total amount spent by the foundation. In Alberta, there have been 112 projects for $58.7 million, representing about 7.6% of the funding from the Canada foundation for innovation. In my province of Saskatchewan, there were 28 different projects for $20.4 million, which is around 2.6% of the total. In Manitoba, there were 57 projects for $16.3 million or 2.1% of the total.

So far, western Canada has received about 26.5% of the total amount being funded by the Canada innovation centre. That is roughly in accordance with our population, which I guess should be one of the criteria.

Ontario had 434 projects and $311.7 million for some 40.2% of the funding. The province of Quebec has had 315 projects and $230.7 million for 29.7% of the funding.

New Brunswick has had 26 projects and $5.2 million or 0.6% of the funding. Nova Scotia has had 47 projects for $15.8 million or 2% of the funding. Prince Edward Island has had two projects for $730,000, which is .09% or one one-hundredth, roughly, of the funding. Newfoundland has had 17 projects for $6 million, which is 0.7% of the funding. The total in Atlantic Canada is about 3.7% of the funding.

That is a bit of an update as to where the money has gone. It is fairly evenly distributed across the country with the exception of Atlantic Canada, which seems to be receiving less than its fair share if we divide on a population basis the funds from this particular program. The program of course is ongoing and I assume that these figures and balances would change over time.

I think this is a worthwhile project. A lot of money has gone into it. I think members of the House would support it.

We would want, of course, to have time to scrutinize some of these projects to see what their value is and whether the taxpayers are getting the bang for the buck, so to speak, from the hundreds of millions of dollars we are investing. That should be looked at by a parliamentary committee. It might be one of the projects the committee could undertake in the months and years that lie ahead.

When it comes to the Canada pension board, we should look at democratizing the board and bringing in some representatives who are working people to contribute to the agency. There should be representatives from the trade unions of the country. Perhaps there should be a representative of retirees on the board, who can offer advice from a retiree's point of view. In other words, the board must be democratized.

If we look at the composition of the board now and at the 12 members on that board, we see that almost all of them come from business backgrounds and would be acceptable to the business community or to the business half of that equation of who pays into the CPP legislation in the country. However, there are really very few who have a background that might be more relevant to the ordinary working people or trade unions or retirees across Canada. Let us make that change.

In terms of the foundation, I think this is a step in the right direction. It should improve our country's investment in research and development. The relevant committee of the House of Commons should look at some of these projects to make sure due diligence is done. After due diligence is done, the committee should determine whether or not we are getting the impact in terms of R and D, learning and innovation, jobs and skills, and added value to the Canadian economy that is the vision behind the bill before the House today and that was the vision of the bill in April 1997.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

April 2nd, 2001 / 1:10 p.m.
See context

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to speak to the bill particularly surrounding the manner in which it affects credit unions. As my colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle has already indicated when he addressed the House, we have serious reservations about the bill generally but do support it to the degree that it deals with credit unions. Some recommendations for additions to the bill have not been accepted by the government.

It is really important to set in context the role the credit union movement from our viewpoint and that of the government's needs to play in the country. That role is one of the only alternate systems of financial services we have. Those services unfortunately are spotty across the country because of the history of the development of the credit union movement.

Although the bill is designed to provide some strengthening of the movement to allow and permit for some expansion of the credit union movement, it simply does not go far enough.

It would allow for the development of what is being called a national services entity, or potentially even more than one. It would allow credit unions from various provinces to come together in a strengthened position. It is still fairly late in the game. They are at a distinct disadvantage with the banking system as it exists because of all the privileges and rights the banking system has been given historically in Canada.

It is important to draw to the attention of the country the role credit unions can play. Last week I asked one of my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois about the role the Desjardins movement has played in Quebec in solidifying a financial service sector that is broadly based in response to the needs of its communities. In Quebec, and to a somewhat lesser degree in British Columbia, it has been very successful.

I also draw attention to something that I do not think is fully appreciated: the small and medium enterprise area which it has been of great of assistance to these communities. There have been a number of surveys which have shown that small or medium size businesses get much better services from the credit union movement. Unfortunately, with probably the exception of Quebec and maybe British Columbia, in the rest of the country's small and medium sized enterprises simply do not have sufficient services available from the credit union movement and institutions to meet their needs. These amendments in the form of Bill C-8 will go some distance in strengthening the movement across the country. However, as I indicated, it is not enough.

The other area where I think it is really important to note the strength that the credit unions have provided is direct services to individuals. In that regard, it brings to mind the movement by the big banks to close local branches. Of course, we have heard protests and opposition to the banks when they do this.

An area where the credit union movement helped was in one of the western provinces when one of the big banks was closing a large number of local branches. I think it was 13 or 14 branches. The credit union movement moved in and in effect bought the services, took over those branches and kept them alive and open for a number of small communities in western Canada. That, in smaller scales, has occurred right across the country.

One of the recent credit unions in my home province of Ontario got started specifically because the big banks were pulling out of a small community in southwestern Ontario. Nobody was going to be there to provide services, either to individuals or the small local businesses. As a result of a movement on the part of that local community, a new credit union was formed and is flourishing after several years of operation.

It is important to acknowledge those types of endeavours by the credit union movement at the same time this bill is passing through the House.

Again, it does not go far enough. I will not take up my full 20 minutes, but I want to make a few more points with regard to perhaps encouraging the government to look a little into the future at other programs and policies it might implement to facilitate the further development of the credit union movement, in particular, outside of the provinces of Quebec and British Columbia where they are already quite strong. However, in the rest of Canada, the maritimes and Ontario in particular, if endeavours were made and policies implemented, they might very well be able to duplicate the success and provide alternate services we so badly need in the financial services sector.

In that regard, I draw the attention of hon. members to one of the things the province of Quebec did to assist in expanding the caisse populaires and the Desjardins movement. It recognized the need for additional funds to be available to the movement and to be used in the community to foster local business and allow the development of smaller communities. It turned the pension funds traditionally controlled by the government over to the Desjardins movement. That put at its disposal a huge amount of additional liquidity.

Although one can argue that no system is perfect, it certainly had the effect of making that movement in that province very competitive with the big banks. Small and medium sized enterprises had alternatives. A financial service was available to get better services than they traditionally received from big banks.

I am aware of another area that could be considered in terms of enhancing the strength of the credit union movement. That has been to allow them to provide to their members insurance services such as home insurance, auto insurance and others. This has been done to some degree in the province of British Columbia. From my personal knowledge of the experience in British Columbia involving some very large institutions, they have been able to use the insurance financial service sector as a profit making centre, one that in the smaller credit unions and smaller branches has made them financially viable in small communities.

This allowed a small branch of a credit union to continue to function by providing all the other financial services such as mortgages, personal loans et cetera, as well as house and auto insurance. By combining the two, they were quite viable as an economic institution. They could service the community by providing all those financial services. This is something the government should look at as a way of providing some incentive, initiative and strengthening of the credit union movement across the country.

We recognize the resistance the government has in allowing banking institutions to deliver insurance services. The same need not be true for the credit union movement. The credit union movement is dedicated to its members and its communities, not just to the bottom line. The authority for credit unions to move into that area would be a boom for them and a very large plus for their communities.

In conclusion, it is obvious that the bill is going to pass with the form being proposed at this time. Some of the suggestions I made with regard to credit unions need to be pursued by the government. It is very important to Canada that an alternative source of funding for the financial sector be available to both small and large communities. Some of the proposals we made as a party and that I recounted today would take us somewhere down that route.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

April 2nd, 2001 / 12:10 p.m.
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Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Given the motion that has just passed and the unanimous consent, I would like to clarify the business of the House because it has been changed. In any case, there have been consultations about future business which I would like to share it with the House.

After completing the debate on Bill C-2 at report stage, the House will return to third reading of Bill C-8, the financial institutions bill. After this we will call Bill C-18, the equalization bill; Bill C-17, the innovation foundation; and Bill C-22, the income tax bill, in that order.

Tomorrow shall be an allotted day, as already announced.

Wednesday shall be the day allocated for third reading of Bill C-2. I understand there will be some co-operation to ensure that all parties have a spokesperson on Wednesday. I intend to do my part on this side of the House in that regard.

On Thursday we shall resume the list from today, adding at the end Bill C-9, the elections bill. We shall continue the list on Friday, adding Bill C-12, the Judges Act amendment.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

March 30th, 2001 / 1:20 p.m.
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Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Madam Speaker, I am both pleased and somewhat distressed to speak on the bill today. The reason I am distressed is that after a long week of sleep deprivation I am not my usual bubbly self. I am struggling with a sore throat and other things. I feel sorry for myself and I am sure the Speaker does too.

Today we are dealing with Bill C-8. I have estimated that to read the bill would take 15 hours. If one were to read it with meaning, in other words read it to understand what is going on and actually verify some of its claims, it would take many more hours.

It is a huge undertaking for us today to go through Bill C-8, an act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada. The bill would basically set up the way financial institutions in the country are run.

On balance I support the bill, although I definitely have concerns. Ever since 1992 when the then Conservative government changed the rules for banks, there has been a need for revisions and for our banking sector to, if I can use the phrase, get with the times and be able to compete in the international market.

In a sense the bill is much overdue. The government moved very slowly in that regard. To make matters worse, in June 2000, not quite a year ago, the government introduced Bill C-38 in first reading. The bill then sat there and the government basically did nothing about it. It did not call for a debate on the bill in the House. It was a very slow process.

Then, to our chagrin, there was a totally unnecessary election in the fall which caused a great number of bills to drop off the order paper. The bills were enveloped into nothingness with the call of the election. The election was called for only one purpose, and that was a political purpose. The business of the country and helping our financial institutions with a new bill took a secondary position to the Prime Minister's overriding goal of getting yet another mandate. That seems to be so important to the Liberals, hanging on to power.

In retrospect we see that it was a good strategy, politically speaking. It is very much in keeping with a cartoon I saw in which the Prime Minister is shown reading a newspaper that says “Liberals have overwhelming third majority government”. The Prime Minister is saying to the people reading the cartoon “That is the best $200 million of your money that I ever spent”.

It is incredible that the government could drop all the business of the country and hold an unnecessary election one and a half years early, an election which cost the taxpayer $200 million and was conducted strictly and totally for political reasons. The Prime Minister wanted to win and did not care what it cost.

This bill along with many others was dropped and has now been resumed. It is interesting that Bill C-38 became with a few technical changes Bill C-8. If I wanted to reluctantly compliment the government I would thank it for bringing the bill back to the House with some urgency and allowing us to debate the issues in it.

Previous speakers, including my colleague from Prince George—Bulkley Valley, have spent quite a bit of time talking about the structure that is involved. It comes under the broad topic of having a bank we can trust. I really think that is important.

From my life experience and from having been on the finance committee studying this bill and other issues, it is my view that Canada is richly blessed with a financial system that is strong and trustworthy in the big picture.

In other words, we do not have a great deal of fear about our banks collapsing or about financial transactions not being completed in a timely fashion. As a matter of fact, and I do not believe this should be addressed in legislation, we should have a website where people can post their complaints about the banks for everyone in the country to see, unfiltered by the press. That would give huge accountability to the banks.

As a member of parliament I receive complaints, not many but some, about the banks. It says something about our post office that these days I receive more complaints about the banks than about the post office. Neither type of complaint is huge in number, although some are of significance to the people who visit their members of parliament on an issue. However by and large our banks are trustworthy and we can count on them.

We have a banking system in which we can conduct financial transactions and know that everything will work clickety-clickety-click. It is all very smooth. It is a well structured organization. That is due to the combined efforts of the Bank of Canada, which has been well run during the last number of years, and the individual banks that have taken their responsibilities very seriously.

I have a question for the banks if any of them happen to be listening. If I get a cash advance on a Friday it is posted within two seconds, but if I make a payment on that same advance I do not get the credit until the next banking day. Sometimes it takes two days if it is a weekend. I wonder why that is.

The banks should be consistent. If I bring a cheque to the bank I know it has the capability of cashing it and doing the electronic transaction immediately.—

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

March 30th, 2001 / 1:10 p.m.
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Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. member for Matapédia—Matane is actually giving us a very specific example of the reality I was describing in my speech. Matane and Amqui are small towns, and when a number of jobs are lost because a bank branch is closed, there is a major impact. In a large city, this could translate into the loss of hundreds of jobs.

I think the solution was to be found partly in the proposal of the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. He wanted to ensure control of community reinvestment by banks. I believe this could have been an objective of this bill. It could have led to an interesting solution.

I also hope that Bill C-8 once passed will allow greater competition in the banking system, thus forcing banks to finally have more respect for their clients. I would also challenge people as shareholders, as bank clients, not to be afraid of making representations to see where their capital is going and how it is used, to really be actors more than spectators, in the development of the financial situation in their region.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

March 30th, 2001 / 12:50 p.m.
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Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Speaker, it is a great pleasure to take part today at third reading stage in the debate on Bill C-8, an act to establish the financial consumer agency of Canada and to amend certain acts in relation to financial institutions.

What we have before the House is a major piece of legislation concerning the overall structure of the banking system in Canada and all the operations of our financial institutions. This bill deserves our full attention. It is the result of a lot of hard work that started when the Minister of Finance announced the mandate and membership of the Task Force on the Future of the Canadian Financial Services Sector on December 18, 1996.

This bill is the result of an extensive consultation process. We finally have a bill we find acceptable after making significant representations and winning on a number of points concerning the implementation of the bill.

This bill deals with major issues such as the banking sector. It deals with changes to the rules governing bank ownership, with bank holding companies and with the whole issue of foreign banks. With globalization, deregulation and new developments, it was important to review the bill. This is what this legislation does in a major way.

However, the Bloc Quebecois had major concerns regarding the treatment of banks with assets of less than $5 billion. We have one of those in Quebec: the National Bank. It may not be the biggest bank in Canada but it is the biggest one in Quebec. We wanted to ensure it would be adequately protected under the act.

The first version of the bill, introduced before the election, contained no provisions to this effect. I believe our representations helped, since we were opposed to Bill C-8 which gave the Minister of Finance too much power over the future of banks. In the first bill, there was no guarantee that he would take into consideration the specificity of Quebec's financial system.

The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve rose to say that we wished there were in this bill important additional provisions allowing community reinvestment by the banks. The United States has such legislation, and it has yielded interesting results. We do not have this type of adjustment. People living in regions have seen in recent years a reduction of the number of bank branches. We have noticed that the services provided to customers, namely credit services, are not always those we should expect from a competitive system. We would have liked the bill to provide for greater competition.

After several representations, in particular by my colleague the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who kept a close eye on the federal government, the finance minister and the parliamentary secretary with respect to this issue, the government established guidelines on the reclassification of the banks previously listed in schedule I with an equity capital of less than $5 billion. This is the case of the National Bank.

We would have liked to see these guidelines in the bill. At least, they now exist. They have been published by the Department of Finance and will have to be taken into consideration when decisions are made about the ownership of this type of bank.

Under these guidelines, the Minister of Finance may reclassify such banks in restricted ownership categories. The guidelines set out the framework for the review of transactions requiring reclassification. A certain number of factors are identified, which will have to be taken into consideration by the minister when he has to make a decision following a transaction dealing with the ownership of a bank.

For example, the cost-effectiveness and objectives of the proposal would be analysed. Consideration would also be given to the impact of protecting the proposed transaction on the security and soundness of the bank, on direct and indirect employment, on the location of the centre of decision making and management of the bank, on the needs of consumers, on the business and activities of the bank and on the future prospects of the bank in world markets.

In other words, there are a series of criteria which will oblige the Minister of Finance to consider all these issues when making his decision. This means that the people working at the National Bank, its owners and shareholders, will have to ensure that these guidelines are observed because Quebecers want this bank to continue to serve Quebecers.

In the case of transactions the Minister of Finance will have to ask questions to determine whether there is sufficient protection for direct and indirect employment and where the bank's centre of decision making and management is located.

In this connection, I will digress for a moment. Our arguments have also contributed to a debate within the National Bank, which has adopted administrative rules to protect itself against a hostile takeover, a takeover not wanted by its shareholders. These people took a stand on this issue and on the issue of the bank's head office.

Thus, in this respect, not only through Bill C-8 but also through the way the bank has responded to adopt a responsible attitude, it now seems to us that the necessary protections are there to protect this type of bank and particularly the National Bank in Quebec.

One of the other major criteria that are particularly a cause for concern for me and that the minister will have to consider when he determines the value of the transaction, is the interests of Canadians and, when the institution is operating mainly in a region, the interests of the people in the region.

We know what the word region means to the federal government. Usually, it means Ontario, Quebec, western Canada or the Atlantic. In this regard, it will have to consider the interests of the people of Quebec, if ever there were a transaction relating to the National Bank.

We wish this had been included in the legislation, instead of being covered simply by guidelines, since we do not know who the finance minister will be in a few years. We do not know what pressure he will be under. We know the value and the strength of lobbies here in Ottawa, particularly in terms of our funding rules. This allows for very strong lobbies.

In the past, we have seen banks make very large contributions, especially to traditional parties. We hope that through these guidelines the bill, once enacted, will provide adequate protection to small and medium size banks within Canada.

As I said earlier, this is major legislation because it deals not only with the banks but also with all other financial institutions. As concerns the protection of savers and investors, this bill contains interesting features.

We have proposed many amendments but they have not been selected. I want to put them on the record so that people will know that the Bloc Quebecois took to heart the protection of their interests.

I will say a word later about community reinvestment. In the last parliament my colleague for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve introduced a bill on community reinvestment, and he also tried to have the content of his bill included in Bill C-8. Unfortunately, the government refused.

There is always room for improvement and I am sure my colleague, with his great tenacity, will find other ways to ensure that financial institutions assume their social responsibilities.

When I hear about the profits our banks make throughout Canada, I think we should look at what they do and see whether financial benefits in the regions where they operate are high enough. In the same vein, I think we should legislate in order to have the power to make an assessment of the situation and to require of the banks that they correct the problems, or perhaps establish criteria, a code of conduct or procedures that would go beyond what exists now.

Bank branches have disappeared year after year in my area. Having made a lot of money with our people for many years, when they do not meet the levels of profitability demanded by the shareholders, not because they are in deficit but because they are not meeting the levels of profitability anymore, the banks get rid of their staff, their facilities and their branches. This is always hard on the regions.

When we want to negotiate a loan for a small or medium size business at the regional level, it is always better to talk to somebody we know, somebody who understands our business. I do not think that we can say that we are really happy with the Canadian banking system in that respect.

Let me go back to the proposed amendments. For example, we suggested limiting the number of boards a director is allowed to sit on at any one time. The House certainly understands from the terms of this amendment that we want to ensure, in all logic, that power and financial decision making capacity is not excessively concentrated in the hands of a few.

We were also talking about an amendment on the suppression of potential conflicts of interests between board members and those who supply goods and services to the institution. This is also self-explanatory.

Amendments also provided for the requirement to submit financial statements for review and discussion during the annual shareholders' meeting. Hon. members know that the banks' small shareholders are more and more interested in having a say in decision making. They do not want to just sign proxy letters; they want to be able to influence decisions, even if they are only minority shareholders. We want them to be able to have a voice. The purpose of this amendment was to enhance their powers.

There was also talk of making shareholder presentations for approval of the officers' remuneration policy. This too is in line with the banks' social vocation. When we heard of inordinately high salaries being paid to people who may have generated substantial financial profits, but did so at the expense of the bank workers, with more than 1,000, 2,000 or 5,000 jobs cut to maximize profits, while officers were getting considerable salary increases, we figured it would be extremely appropriate to bring in an amendment. It did not make its way into the bill however. There was one but it was rejected. We feel it ought to have been part of this bill.

There was also talk of proposing a code of procedure for shareholders' meetings, a requirement for companies to make a full report of each and every shareholders' meeting to be sent to each shareholder, all with a view to improving the transparency of the banking system.

All of these amendments would have made this bill even better and given it more transparency. They were rejected, and the way it was done strikes us as improper. We do not question the pertinence of the bill, but the amendments would have made it possible to make the bill a more significant one.

I will say a bit more about community investment. It is based on the banks' social responsibility to the community. It is still not a part of C-8, despite the comments by the Bloc and, as I was saying earlier, the member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.

He proposed important objectives for the bill, including having the banks analyze their operations, their systems, their rules and their practices and measure the spread between deposits and loans to designated persons in a given community. This way one can see the economic impact a bank has on a community, its relevance, and assess whether it has fulfilled its social role and table a report on the remedial action to be taken. The superintendent of financial institutions should have been required to propose assessment criteria to promote implementation of the concept of community reinvestment.

This is therefore a positive contribution that could have been made to the bill but that the government rejected. It still seems relevant to us but unfortunately it was rejected.

I would like to remind members of something my colleague from Hochelaga—Maisonneuve said: “There are whole communities where banks are pointedly absent and, when they are present, there is a real problem of availability of banking services for low income individuals that only the passage of legislation will correct”.

I congratulate him on his very accurate view of what goes on throughout Quebec. The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve is from an urban centre, where the problem of people with limited incomes accessing banking services must certainly be an issue.

This quote shows as well that he is informed on the situation throughout Quebec, in the regions, and that a member from the Montreal area can be very much aware of the situation throughout Quebec. This quote reflects that. This is what I was saying earlier. In Quebec, the problem is often one of not finding bank branches any more.

We hope that Bill C-8 will at least solve the competition problem to provide for good competition and adequate services in our regions. However, it will not solve the issue of community reinvestment because the government refused to act on it.

In this regard, we could say that market forces do not support economic growth. The community is less competitive when there are community disinvestment.

In the end, a community where investment ceases to flow is a community where there is no capital movement. When capital movement slows down because banks invest the money from the checking and saving accounts of the people in other regions, the population of the affected community loses out.

Overall, the bill will change and update the banking system and all the other financial institutions. I think that it includes many positive aspects. It results from relatively broad consultations. We had major concerns regarding the protection of banks like the National Bank, but thanks to our pressing demands, the Minister of Finances produced guidelines to protect them.

Even though they are not included in the bill, these guidelines represent an improvement that will ensure an adequate level of protection. We also think that the banks themselves can take steps to improve the situation. However, we think that the government could have taken this opportunity to make the administration of banks and the functioning of boards of directors more transparent.

We are sorry that these amendments were rejected. We are also sorry that our amendments on community investment were not accepted. However, we believe that overall it is a good piece of legislation which deserves our support.

When proposed measures seem positive the Bloc Quebecois is happy to support them. In the last parliament I think that we, in the Bloc Quebecois, were the ones who most often supported the government when we deemed it appropriate to do so. We know how to address the real issues people are faced with in their everyday lives. When we disagree, we say so, hoping to find interesting solutions.

To end the week on a bill such as this one is a lot more interesting than the general attitude shown by the Liberal government this week. For example, we had to set the record straight on Thursday. During statements by members the member for Laval East said that we had not spoken about the vast police offensive against criminal biker gangs when the previous day, the same day the police operation was carried out, the member for Berthier—Montcalm had made a statement on that very subject.

It seems that the Liberal majority is not paying much attention to the debates, as evidenced by the fact that yesterday afternoon, throughout oral question period, the majority kept telling us that the opposition was not interested in the real issues, that its only concern was the Auberge Grand-Mère. Half an hour later, when the question was put on a motion, the Liberal majority was unable to find enough members to ensure continuation of House proceedings.

As far as I am concerned, this clearly demonstrates how irresponsible the Liberal majority is. We taught them a good lesson. Even from the opposition side, the Bloc Quebecois can address the real issues like the integrity of the Prime Minister. We are also able to consider any other problem coming our way, and we do so. We make representations. We make our points forcefully. We believe the House of Commons should be taken seriously, should hold real debates.

This is why I think we should conclude consideration of Bill C-8 this afternoon. It will give some sense to the House business. I hope Liberal members will go home this weekend and acknowledge that they made a serious mistake in believing that they could determine for the House of Commons what the important issues are. However, I think that the people of Quebec and of Canada need to be sure that their Prime Minister is honest but also that other problems are being dealt with. So I hope the Liberals have learned their lesson for the week.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

March 30th, 2001 / 12:40 p.m.
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Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member this question. I know he has looked at Bill C-8 quite extensively. He knows the government has been talking the talk about giving more flexibility to the credit union movement in Canada.

Would the hon. member give us his opinion on why the government voted down a very key amendment which would have provided this flexibility to credit unions in Canada in spite of the fact the government has talked about its wish to make this more flexible?

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

March 30th, 2001 / 12:20 p.m.
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Progressive Conservative

Scott Brison Progressive Conservative Kings—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-8. The legislation will have a very important effect on the level and quality of services available to Canadians and consumers of financial services. It also has the potential for a significant impact on the competitiveness of our financial services sector globally.

We are in an increasingly competitive financial services sector that from a global perspective has become hyper competitive. The amount of change in the financial services sector in the last 10 years has been greater than the level of change that has occurred in the entire 150 years preceding that.

In this rapidly changing hyper competitive environment the government has dragged its feet since 1993. It has avoided making the necessary updates and improvements to reflect this reality and the new realities in the financial services sector. There is very little in the legislation that could not have been introduced in 1994-95. Instead, the government used every delaying mechanism at its disposal to wait as long as it possibly could to introduce the legislation, and that is unfortunate.

Further, the MacKay report of about a year and a half ago provided an extraordinarily comprehensive and well thought out long term visionary plan for the financial services sector that has been butchered by the government. It has selectively chosen based on political palatability certain elements of the MacKay task force to recommend.

It has chosen to ignore and to turn a blind eye to many of the other recommendations which may have been more politically contentious but would have contributed significantly to improved competitiveness in our financial services sector and to an improved environment to create more jobs and opportunities for Canadians in this sector.

The government has treated the MacKay task force like a buffet where it could selectively choose from the menu of public policy options. It chose the various options based on political criteria, not on economic criteria or on achieving what was best for Canadians and the financial services sector.

The government has delayed and dithered on this issue for a long period of time. It is with a pinched nose that the PC Party supports the legislation because it does not reflect the type of measures and policies that we believe would harness the power of the financial services sector in Canada. While it does have some of the elements that could help to improve the environment for the financial services sector and create greater levels of wealth and opportunity for Canadians, it does not go nearly far enough in many ways.

In 1993 Canada was ahead of the U.S. in terms of deregulating our financial services sector. Today we have fallen behind the U.S. With the last vestiges of the Glass-Steagall act gone from the U.S., American financial services, such as banks and trust companies, are better positioned to participate in the opportunities of the 21st century than their Canadian counterparts.

The government's approach to the financial services sector has forced Canadian banks to grow in the U.S. and to limit their growth here in Canada. This is unfortunate because many of the jobs and opportunities could be here in Canada. I fear that the government is driving people offshore and limiting opportunities within our borders.

There has been a significant amount of lost opportunities in the last couple of years. The last time the issue of bank mergers was pursued, the finance minister's response in December 1999 closed the door to bank mergers. There was an opportunity for dialogue between the banks and parliamentarians, and between the banks and people served by the banks about some of the issues of concern to Canadians.

Instead of the finance minister taking opportunity to address those concerns in a constructive way by sitting down with the banks and negotiating terms that would protect the interests of Canadian consumers, borrowers and small business people, he slammed the door shut for short term political reasons. He not only denied an opportunity for a more efficient financial services sector, he also denied Canadian consumers the opportunity to have better, more competitive services well into the future.

During that time, the Bank of Montreal and the Royal Bank agreed to several long term commitments which would have given improved services to consumers. These included doubling the amount of lending to small businesses and the setting up of a separate bank to do that, reducing bank service charges, protecting services to smaller communities and increasing staff in branches.

Instead of taking advantage of these opportunities on behalf of Canadians, the minister, for political reasons, made a shortsighted decision. Part of that was to appease the Liberal caucus witch hunt on banks—I am sorry—the Liberal task force on banks which constructed the most partisan, poorly written and researched, short term document ever in the history of parliament. Instead, he capitulated to the forces of evil on that side of the House with its short term, populist, pandering perspective which denied Canadians the long term opportunity of a stronger financial services sector and better levels of services to Canadians.

The Liberals opposite are convenient free marketeers. It is focus group economics on the other side of the House. It is whatever is popular this particular week, or month or year. There was a time when those members opposite campaigned vociferously against free trade until of course they were elected. At that point they saw the benefits of free trade and embraced it. Some would say the government claimed the invention of free trade in the same way that the former vice president of the U.S., Al Gore, claimed invention of the Internet. We also saw that with the GST.

It must be great to be able to go through life unburdened by the yoke of principle and consistency. Fortunately we on this side of the House are burdened with the yoke of consistency, principle and values that may not always be popular but are consistently well thought out and based on sound values.

This piece of legislation would give the Canadian government a greater level of intrusion and regulation of the financial services sector than any other sector or industry in the country. The government will say that this growth of regulations is good for consumers, but I would argue this would in the long term cost Canadian consumers more in the following ways.

First, Canadian bank service charges are competitive globally. None of us like to pay service charges but the fact is our bank service charges are competitive. In fact they are lower than those of American banks. Sometimes it does make sense for us in this place to deal with reality and not simply perceptions when we are voting public policy.

Second, this growth of regulation is going to cost a great deal for financial services players to participate in and to comply with. Ultimately those costs will be borne by someone. Will they be borne by shareholders? Perhaps they will in part. I would argue that ultimately those costs will be borne by consumers, the very people who the government is claiming to be trying to protect. Consumers will be paying higher service charges in order for the financial services institutions to comply with the government's egregious, oppressive levels of regulations in this particular area.